Landlord - Electrical Safety Certificate

[David Steel]

Hi all,

I am a tenant in my sister's flat. She is my landlord.

She has her official 'Landlord Gas Certificate', which we get checked annually.

As far as a 'Landlords Electrical Certificate' goes, she did not have one. So we decided to get a registered, reputable local electrician in, to issue a certificate. This is what has happened:-

1) They came out to do a thorough check on the flat. They said:-

- the fuse/distribution box had to be changed;

- bathroom lights did not have the required IP rated lighting;

2) We agreed for them to carry the work, so that we could have a valid 'Electrical Safety Certificate';

3) They replaced the fuse/distribution box but they did NOT do the bathroom light work (they couldn't fit the lights that they brought along - this is another story). So they only charged us for the fuse/distribution box installation;

4) They have issued a 'Domestic Electrical Installation Certificate' which references 'Requirements for Electrical Installations - BS7671 IET Wiring Reglations' and it also has NAPIT logo on;

5) However the certificate in 4) ONLY refers to the installation of the fuse/distribution box, no where on the certificate does it mention electrical sockets, light switches within the flat;

6) The electrician assured me that this above certificate 'supersedes' any 'Landlord Electrical Safety Certificate', because the fuse/distribution box has extra safety circuitry and the certificate mentioned above covers my sister for her responsibilities as a landlord. The electrician also states this in an email to me.


First of all, we wanted a 'Landlord Electrical Safety Certificate. We haven't got that. We have got this 'Electrical Installation Certificate' which only details the installation he carried out, ie the fuse/distribution box.

If what he is saying is true, that this EIC cert supersedes any 'Landlord Electrical Safety Certificate', then happy days.

Is what he is saying true? Help me out here guys. Thank you.

 

[Hellmooth]

An EIC and EICR are completely different, he should have issued you with both, EIC for changing the consumer unit and EICR (Electrical Installation Condition Report) for the 'landlord safety certificate'.

 

[westward10]

So he initially carried out no tests or inspection, just said fuse box needs replacing. Did he give any valid reasons for this.

 

[telectrix]

there is no actual official "landlord's Safety Certificate" for electrical installations. what there is is an Electrical Installation Condition Report" ( EICR). this is what you would normally get after a full test/inspection. Ideally, you should have this in addition to what he's given you, but at present, there is no legal requirement. It should be noted on your certificate if there are any deviations from BS7671 (17th Ed.). Ideally thouhg, you should have both EIC and EICR, he would normally charge in the region of £200 for the EICR, in addition to the work he has carried out.

 

[Pete999]

Deleted

 

[David Steel]

An EIC and EICR are completely different, he should have issued you with both, EIC for changing the consumer unit and EICR (Electrical Installation Condition Report) for the 'landlord safety certificate'.

Thank you. I am going to ask him if he done an EICR for the flat, and if not, why not.

 

[Hellmooth]

Thank you. I am going to ask him if he done an EICR for the flat, and if not, why not.

To have changed the fuse board he should have carried out the EICR beforehand, especially as that was the main reason he was there!

 

[David Steel]

So he initially carried out no tests or inspection, just said fuse box needs replacing. Did he give any valid reasons for this.

Thank you for your reply. To clarify, he did initially come to the flat and carried out inspections on the flat. He said the fuse box was very old and a new box would meet todays expected regulations.

However, I did not get any report / paperwork / certificate for this initial inspection.

 

[David Steel]

To have changed the fuse board he should have carried out the EICR beforehand, especially as that was the main reason he was there!

I agree.

 

[Pete999]

How much did the CU (fuse board)change cost you?

 

[telectrix]

just as a note.the bathroom lights IP rating depends on whether or not they are within Zone1 or zone 2. a lot of sparks miis out the fact that if the ceiling is > 2.25m above floor level, then they are outside zones unless directly above the bath/shower.

 

[telectrix]

Thank you for your reply. To clarify, he did initially come to the flat and carried out inspections on the flat. He said the fuse box was very old and a new box would meet todays expected regulations.

However, I did not get any report / paperwork / certificate for this initial inspection.

did he charge for that initial inspection?

 

[westward10]

What should have happened was that he carry out an Electrical Inspection Condition Report which he should have then sent a copy to your sister. This Report would then itemize any issues which are Coded to indicate their priority at which point it could be discussed with him any remedial works which were required and the financial cost. He should explain the possible ramifications of not having remedial works done because saying a fuse box is old and a new one would meet current Regulations is not good enough.

 

[David Steel]

there is no actual official "landlord's Safety Certificate" for electrical installations. what there is is an Electrical Installation Condition Report" ( EICR). this is what you would normally get after a full test/inspection. Ideally, you should have this in addition to what he's given you, but at present, there is no legal requirement. It should be noted on your certificate if there are any deviations from BS7671 (17th Ed.). Ideally thouhg, you should have both EIC and EICR, he would normally charge in the region of £200 for the EICR, in addition to the work he has carried out.

Thanks for this reply.

When I first contacted him, I specifically told him what I wanted, which was a certificate for my sister which gives her peace of mind as a landlord.

I have got it in text and email me requesting a 'Landlord Electrical Safety' certificate. I was aware that there was probably no official certificate which had such a name, but I was hoping I would get the equivalent (I'm not in the electrical business, so I don't know all the different types of certificate). We definitely have not recived a EICR, which basically is what we requested.

 

[David Steel]

How much did the CU (fuse board)change cost you?

£450

 

[David Steel]

just as a note.the bathroom lights IP rating depends on whether or not they are within Zone1 or zone 2. a lot of sparks miis out the fact that if the ceiling is > 2.25m above floor level, then they are outside zones unless directly above the bath/shower.

Many thanks for this info.

I can confirm the spotlights are 2.3m from floor to ceiling. However, they are also above the bath/shower and this is less than 2.25m.

 

[David Steel]

just as a note.the bathroom lights IP rating depends on whether or not they are within Zone1 or zone 2. a lot of sparks miis out the fact that if the ceiling is > 2.25m above floor level, then they are outside zones unless directly above the bath/shower.

Many thanks for this info.

I can confirm the spotlights are 2.3m from floor to ceiling. However, they are also above the bath/shower and this is less than 2.25m.

 

[David Steel]

did he charge for that initial inspection?

Yes he did. He charged £100.

I wasn't in at the time of the inspection, I had someone awaiting him at the flat so he could carry out the inspection. There were two of them, and I'm told they were at the flat for a few hours and were very thorough.

I was told that I would receive a certificate for this inspection, which I never got. I was told that the EIC for the fuse/distribution installation would supersede everything.

 

[David Steel]

did he charge for that initial inspection?

Yes he did. He charged £100.

I wasn't in at the time of the inspection, I had someone awaiting him at the flat so he could carry out the inspection. There were two of them, and I'm told they were at the flat for a few hours and were very thorough.

I was told that I would receive a certificate for this inspection, which I never got. I was told that the EIC for the fuse/distribution installation would supersede everything.

 

[telectrix]

then those need changing to IP44 or better. if it were me, i'd measure the holes first so as to be able to replace easily with the same size ( or at worst, enlarge the holes if necessary).

 

[Midwest]

What actually are the 'spotlights'? Most sealed down lights are IP65 rated, or are you referring to another kind of luminaire?

 

[David Steel]

What should have happened was that he carry out an Electrical Inspection Condition Report which he should have then sent a copy to your sister. This Report would then itemize any issues which are Coded to indicate their priority at which point it could be discussed with him any remedial works which were required and the financial cost. He should explain the possible ramifications of not having remedial works done because saying a fuse box is old and a new one would meet current Regulations is not good enough.

Thank you. This makes perfect sense to me.

 

[telectrix]

Yes he did. He charged £100.

I wasn't in at the time of the inspection, I had someone awaiting him at the flat so he could carry out the inspection. There were two of them, and I'm told they were at the flat for a few hours and were very thorough.

I was told that I would receive a certificate for this inspection, which I never got. I was told that the EIC for the fuse/distribution installation would supersede everything.

£100 is cheap for a thorought test/inspection, but nevertheless, he should have provided you with an EICR. that's what you contracted him to do and failing to give you an EICR means he's in breach of contract.

 

[Midwest]

Yes he did. He charged £100.

I wasn't in at the time of the inspection, I had someone awaiting him at the flat so he could carry out the inspection. There were two of them, and I'm told they were at the flat for a few hours and were very thorough.

I was told that I would receive a certificate for this inspection, which I never got. I was told that the EIC for the fuse/distribution installation would supersede everything.

Think if I paid £100 for an 'inspection', I would like to have a certificate for that. And if I paid £450 for a CU change, I would expect a separate certificate for that. I'm sure if you speak to Napit, they would suggest the same, although they will refer you back to your electrician.

 

[David Steel]

then those need changing to IP44 or better. if it were me, i'd measure the holes first so as to be able to replace easily with the same size ( or at worst, enlarge the holes if necessary).

I am concerned about the lights. I did ask him on more than one occasion about the bathroom lights.

How can the 'EIC' for installation of fuse box, cover the safety of the entire flat, if the lights in the bathroom are not the correct IP rating?

I have asked him this question on email too. He states that because of the circuitry in this 'all singing' fuse box, then this covers the safety of the bathroom lights.

Which begs the question, why did he quote to fix the bathroom lights in the first place, if the new fuse box covers this aspect?

 

[David Steel]

Think if I paid £100 for an 'inspection', I would like to have a certificate for that. And if I paid £450 for a CU change, I would expect a separate certificate for that. I'm sure if you speak to Napit, they would suggest the same, although they will refer you back to your electrician.

I agree.

Just to clarify, I did get a EIC for the installation of the fusebox.

I did not get any certificate (EICR?) for the initial £100 inspection. Which I feel a tad stupid.

 

[Midwest]

I have replaced several CU's without carrying out an EICR, but only if the existing installation appeared suitable, and I did carry out some initial tests first, something which is (I) included in the cost of replacing the CU. It is not a requirement to issue an EICR, before replacing a CU issued with a EIC.

That said you specifically ask for an 'inspection' certificate, and paid separately for that service. So that's what should be seeking from your electrician. If he/she declines, then you could approach Napit, but schemes do not normally get involved in contractual matters, but they may advice.

 

[David Steel]

What actually are the 'spotlights'? Most sealed down lights are IP65 rated, or are you referring to another kind of luminaire?

These are the lights. I have no idea what IP rating they are. I have a feeling you will spit your red wine all over your carpet when you see the attached pic...

 

[Midwest]

Hmmm, not quite sure. You can only be sure if the back of the luminaire is inspected for a suitable IP rating label.

 

[Midwest]

Is that what was supplied & fitted?

 

[Midwest]

This is what a fire rated IP65 rated LED down light looks like (example);

 

[David Steel]

I am going out for the evening. I will check in over the weekend.

I am very grateful to your replies and help. I will respond to all replies.

At the end of the day, my sister just wants peace of mind that she is legally covered for the electrical safety of the flat (and safety of her brother lol) I'm getting the feeling that unlike the gas, there is no official 'Landlord Electrical Safety' cert and there is a bit of a grey area.

A lot of you are referring to an EICR certificate, which I never got (and paid £100 for an inspection). So this is something I will ask.

I will reply to any other posts over the weekend. Many thanks.

 

[westward10]

Seems like he has jumped a step by not submitting the original Report and then giving you or your sister a chance to discuss your options with him. I would ask for a copy of the original EICR and if it is not forthcoming inform him you will take it up with NAPIT. Unfortunately we are plagued with electricians, and I use the term lightly who see a fuse board which may not comply with current requirements and which is still perfectly servicable and suggest it is replaced.

 

[David Steel]

I am going out for the evening. I will check in over the weekend.

I am very grateful to your replies and help. I will respond to all replies.

At the end of the day, my sister just wants peace of mind that she is legally covered for the electrical safety of the flat (and safety of her brother lol) I'm getting the feeling that unlike the gas, there is no official 'Landlord Electrical Safety' cert and there is a bit of a grey area.

A lot of you are referring to an EICR certificate, which I never got (and paid £100 for an inspection). So this is something I will ask.

I will reply to any other posts over the weekend. Many thanks.

Is that what was supplied & fitted?

No. They did not supply and fit them. They have been in for over 10 years. The electrician initially said these lights had to be replaced with new IP rated lights.

He quoted for the bathroom lights, but then did not go ahead with the job, because they had the wrong lights to replace them (this is another story).

The important point, is the fact that he said that the new fuse box (with it's all-singing circuitry) would supersede the safety of the lights, because the fuse box gives the safety & protection needed.

 

[Midwest]

A halogen GU10 luminaire looks something like this (example again);


Sorry about the sizing, but you'll note how the lamp is recessed.

 

[David Steel]

Seems like he has jumped a step by not submitting the original Report and then giving you or your sister a chance to discuss your options with him. I would ask for a copy of the original EICR and if it is not forthcoming inform him you will take it up with NAPIT. Unfortunately we are plagued with electricians, and I use the term lightly who see a fuse board which may not comply with current requirements and which is still perfectly servicable and suggest it is replaced.

I agree that it is likely he jumped a step by not issuing a EICR.

I am not in a position to say whether the old fuse box was serviceable. What I will say is that I believe the box was decades old and it was covered in rust.

 

[David Steel]

A halogen GU10 luminaire looks something like this (example again);


Sorry about the sizing, but you'll note how the lamp is recessed.

Yes, I will look at this soon.

My sister and I agree, that the bathroom lights will probably need changing soon.

 

[Midwest]

No. They did not supply and fit them. They have been in for over 10 years. The electrician initially said these lights had to be replaced with new IP rated lights.

He quoted for the bathroom lights, but then did not go ahead with the job, because they had the wrong lights to replace them (this is another story).

The important point, is the fact that he said that the new fuse box (with it's all-singing circuitry) would supersede the safety of the lights, because the fuse box gives the safety & protection needed.

Arrgh, I see. No those fittings do not look suitable to be installed in a bathroom, in a zone or otherwise IMO. But that is a separate matter, to be dealt with separately.
Edit; need a drink!

 

[telectrix]

while your new all singing dancing CU vastly improves safety, esp. in a bathroom, it will not stop steam getting in those lights, esp halogens which run very hot and have been known to explode, showering whoever is in the bath with shards of hot glass. IP44 or better IP55 with LED, either GU10s or fully integrated is the way forward. the integrated ones look a heap better.

 

[westward10]

There is every chance your existing board needed replacing and no one is doubting you now have improved circuit protection. The way to procure this suggested replacement is to itemise so many issues in the EICR that the remedial solution is to replace it.

 

[Octopus]

I'm guessing he's been paid................ but to charge £100 and not provide the unsatisfactory EICR, then charge £450 for a board change ........... did this include upgrades to earthing and bonding?

Do you have the EIC? Has he promised a Part P certificate?

So in summary, you are £550 down, and have nothing to present to the letting agents........

 

[Midwest]

Its all been stated, perhaps allow OP to contact the electrician

 

[b-spark]

Being a electrician and in the letting game, I can say if its registered with building regs. You are 100% legal, legally its gas and portable appliances which have regular inspections. Your condition report is only good until change of occupant. Ie you move out. It does sound like you have been misled on the first inspection, this could have been sold as a "visual inspection only" either way you would receive paperwork on that. By the sounds of it you will get to the bottom of it.

 

[davesparks]

Being a electrician and in the letting game, I can say if its registered with building regs. You are 100% legal, legally its gas and portable appliances which have regular inspections.

Please can you clarify exactly what you mean by being registered with building regs? Building regs are documents, nothing more.
Also please specify which laws require regular inspections of gas and portable appliances?

 

[b-spark]

Please can you clarify exactly what you mean by being registered with building regs? Building regs are documents, nothing more.
Also please specify which laws require regular inspections of gas and portable appliances?

I did respond Dave with a reply, "wouldn't post" This is HSE territory regardless of letting portfolio. I would go on to explain further. "Regs" my error, building control being the collective word. If its registered then legally the landlord has mitigated the risk. As we all know a fuseboard would require a full certificate of tested circuits. My old company was involved with these matters. which the HSE used such information to put a case forward involving a major contractor.

 

[Risteard]

As we all know a fuseboard would require a full certificate of tested circuits.

That's actually a matter of debate. An EIC issued for the replacement of a DB is simply certifying the DB installation as compliant with BS7671 as this is the scope of work. However, there is a need to ascertain that the safety of this is not impaired by the existing installation and will not impair the safety of the existing installation. So it's necessary to ensure that the protective devices (assuming of a different type) will operate in the required time and that the connections you have made in the DB are satisfactory. So some would argue that this can be met by verifying cpc continuity to the first point on the circuit as opposed to the last. It's actually a bit of a grey area as you are not in any way certifying the existing installation (although you should make any necessary comments on it in the appropriate section of the EIC).

 

[Octopus]

This is HSE territory regardless of letting portfolio. I would go on to explain further. "Regs" my error, building control being the collective word.

Precisely ............. so nothing to do with sparking!

 

[Octopus]

An EICR is like an MOT for your vehicle ................. only tells a story the day its done.

 

[b-spark]

What's that got to do with my post?? The guy wanted reassurance that he's safe. The whole point is that someone has taken ownership of the work. Again mitigating the risk of responsibility. Your right its an mot, but if that installation kills somebody. Then the contractor is found not to have a paper trail of procedure. Then who's fault is it? Not the landlord. The electrician. A house blew up a few months ago in manchester with a gas fault. HSE went for the gas fitter. Sole trader or not.

 

[Risteard]

The whole point is that someone has taken ownership of the work.

What work do you believe they have taken ownership of?