Latest on the court challenge!!!

[SibertSolar]

Responding to a question from BusinessGreen a spokeswoman for DECC said it was safe for solar firms to assume the current rate would not fall below 21p per kWh. "The tariff rates for PV installations will not fall below the proposed levels (e.g. 21p for the less than or equal to 4kW band) for systems with an eligibility date between 12th December 2011 and 31st March 2012," she said in an emailed response.

Government clarifies solar feed-in tariff rate as industry uncertainty escalates - 18 Jan 2012 - News from BusinessGreen

 

[solarcat]

Still no clarity on whether the 21p minimum FIT will last 25 years?

 

[The Launderer]

Still no clarity on whether the 21p minimum FIT will last 25 years?

The 25 years has never been in doubt.

Forum members should bear in mind that the public visit this site and raising questions that have never really been an issue can only contribute to general lack of confidence within the industry.

The Government has a commitment to pay the FIT rate for 25 years for solar PV. Its never been on any current agenda to change that.

 

[solarcat]

The Launderer, could you pls provide us with links to written documents confirming this please? I apologize for appearing unsure about it, but I believe I am not the only one in this forum...

 

[The Launderer]

The Launderer, could you pls provide us with links to written documents confirming this please? I apologize for appearing unsure about it, but I believe I am not the only one in this forum...

Took me 2 minutes.

Never been any suggestion apart from some prophets of doom on this forum and elsewhere suggesting the 25 years is in doubt. Not saying that wont change in the future but you can have confidence that jobs being fitted now will get at least 21p (43.3p until 31st March ) for 25 years index linked and tax free.


UK Government proposed changes to solar PV Feed-in-Tariffs / Financial incentives / Generate your own energy / Home (United Kingdom) - Energy Saving Trust
[h=2]How will the proposals affect me?[/h]

The proposals could affect anyone who is considering installing solar PV or has installed solar PV but has not yet applied for Feed-in Tariffs. This is how the proposed new tariffs would apply:​

Eligibility date	Tariff band/rate
Before 12th December 2011	Higher tariff for full 25 years of support
12th December 2011 – 31st March 2012 inclusive	Higher tariff until 31st March 2012 Lower tariff from 1st April 2012 for the remainder of the 25 years' support
1st April 2012 onwards	Lower tariff for full 25 years of support

 

[mdovey]

There is nothing in the consultation document which DECC published on the 31/10/2011 (Comprehensive Review Phase 1: Consultation on Feed-in Tariffs for solar PV - Department of Energy and Climate Change) proposing any change to the 25 year commitment.

 

[solarcat]

Is it me or the Government has not yet taken a decision after the consultation? I though we need to wait until 9th Feb the latest to hear how exactly the FiT scheme has been reviewed?
Are you saying that we can all sell sub 4 kW systems at 21p now?

 

[solarcat]

Is it me or the Government has not yet taken a decision after the consultation? I though we need to wait until 9th Feb the latest to hear how exactly the FiT scheme has been reviewed?
Are you saying that we can all sell sub 4 kW systems at 21p now?

 

[mdovey]

They have not made a decision yet, but even this bunch of clowns wouldn't try to introduce a substantive change (such as changing the 25 years) which wasn't in the consultation.

What DECC have announced is that what ever FIT rate they decide to introduce and whatever eligibility date they decide upon (or is forced upon them by the courts). Any installation between the 12 December and the 31 March will receive a FIT rate no lower than 21p (and possibly higher - but we will not know that for a few weeks).

 

[michaelwr]

The 25 years has never been in doubt.

Forum members should bear in mind that the public visit this site and raising questions that have never really been an issue can only contribute to general lack of confidence within the industry.

The Government has a commitment to pay the FIT rate for 25 years for solar PV. Its never been on any current agenda to change that.

Being a confused member of the public I have enough questions...

Questions #424-26 re: If Scotland gets independance.....

#424 Will Kim Jong-Salmond plan to cancel scheme and screw up my pension plans?
#425 If it continues will I have to move to that Scottish (Spanish) Power bunch?
#426 Will it be paid in worthless Euro's?

25 years now does seem a very long time

 

[solarsavings]

25yrs always look further away looking forward, strange then it seems so short looking back

 

[The Launderer]

Being a confused member of the public I have enough questions...

Questions #424-26 re: If Scotland gets independance.....

#424 Will Kim Jong-Salmond plan to cancel scheme and screw up my pension plans?
#425 If it continues will I have to move to that Scottish (Spanish) Power bunch?
#426 Will it be paid in worthless Euro's?

25 years now does seem a very long time

I haven't considered that question before. The last poll I seen suggested that less than 1 in 4 Scots were in favour so its probably not worth worrying about. Having said that I have just sent a letter to my SNP Scottish MP and asked her the question. Don't hold your breath for a quick answer.

 

[moggy1968]

do we have any clarity on the rates for installs over 4kW?

 

[morpheus75]

I rang REA today and they confirmed once again 21p for 25 years until march 31st indexed link. No indication of any rate for systems above 4kw. Interestingly though the advisor i spoke to seemed fairly certain that DECC will probably win the appeal?
Going forwards 21p indexed linked is what i will be advising potential clients with a bonus of 43p if appeal is lost, but will make very clear the current situation. To be honest there is not a lot else that can be said or done until we here the outcome.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[FB.]

Interestingly though the advisor i spoke to seemed fairly certain that DECC will probably win the appeal?

In 1997, Gordon Brown told us that he'd put an end to boom and bust; I wouldn't believe everything that government puppets have to say.

Although I agree that the FiT was too generous for too long and allowed rent-a-roofers to skim-off an easy living; I also believe that although the courts will sympathise with the government, the courts will find it difficult to rule in the government's favour and I expect the 43p to be reinstated until April but only after a long, drawn-out series of appeals to deter as many as possible from jumping on the 43p bandwagon.

 

[moggy1968]

every government for the last 30 years has promised to get away from boom and bust, they're all lying wxxxxxs

 

[SRE]

Announcement due this afternoon about dates for new Fit payments from DECC. Seems that 3rd March is going to be the default date if the judges deem 12/12 unlawful.

 

[SRE]

Feed-in Tariff Update - Department of Energy and Climate Change

Is it me - "Today we’re putting in place a contingency that will bring a 21p rate into effect from April for installations from 3 March. " - Ehhh??????

It is me - I guess they mean the reduced rate for installs between 3rd March and April will be 21p after the the 1st April - men in white coats rapidly approaching ......​

 

[FIT-PV]

Wtf..... :90:

 

[Noddy67]

So Fudge is the new black, and 3/3 is the new 12/12. There seems to be more joined up thinking in their dates than their thinking.

Al

 

[JulianC]

Does anyone know where I can hire a hit man? I really need Captain C-rated putting out of my misery.

 

[Graeme Harrold]

Thinking realistically, if the 'C' rating goes, the FIT rate will drop too. With 4K systems being advertised as low as £6500, 21p becomes a fantastic rate again.....

 

[SRE]

Only for a short while until the companies offering 6.5k for 4kwp go bust, which they surely must. Not such a bargain if you can't get any problems sorted. Anyone offering those sort of prices odesn't understand business.

 

[Crusader]

Looks to me like the government think they will loose the court case, if anyone hasn't seen it DECC have announced that the new rate of 21p will apply from 3rd March. Will have to wait for the court decision but it looks like panic again.

 

[mdovey]

The 3/3 is so close to the 1/4 it looks pretty pointless to me!

 

[TedM]

Barker calls this the much needed certainty for the solar industry.

 

[michaelwr]

Surprised they didn't do this sooner, have another consulation period with a valid date whilst they argue over the validatity of the first one.

 

[TedM]

The 'over 4kW' rates are all as proposed in the consultation:

Band (kW Declared Net Capacity (DNC)	Current generation tariff (p/kWh)	New generation tariff from 1 April 2012 (p/kWh)
≤4kW (new build)	37.8	21.0
≤4kW (retrofit)	43.3	21.0
>4-10kW	37.8	16.8
>10-50kW	32.9	15.2
>50-100kW	19	12.9
>100-150kW	19	12.9
>150-250kW	15	12.9
>250kW-5MW	8.5	8.5
stand alone	8.5	8.5

 

[TedM]

Despite what Huhne has said this is DECC pretty much admitting that the consultation process is a complete sham.

 

[mdovey]

Barker calls this the much needed certainty for the solar industry.

Well the clarity is that any install after the 3/3 will get the 21p rate, whereas installs between now and the 3/3 is still a gamble on the court case.

I would expect that there may be a slight rush followed by cancellations if subsequently DECC win the case (particularly from those whose orders as still within the 7 working day cooling off period)

 

[TedM]

BTW this is still not a done deal. Either House of Parliament could vote to throw out the draft. Then it would be back to square one.

This is unlikely, however.

 

[mdovey]

OK, so

installations before the 12/12 will almost certainly be 43.3p until 1 April, and 43.3p after 1 April.
installations between the 12/12 and 3/3 will almost certainly be 43.3p until 1 April and will almost certainly be at least 21p but may be 43.3p after 1 April depending on the court case
installations between the 3/3 will almost certainly be 43.3p until 1 April, and will most probably be 21p after 1 April depending on parliament approval.

I'm glad it is all clear now!

 

[pwboston]

I still cant get my head round how long the courst case is taking, from expecting a decision last Friday afternoon to hearing nothing?

Anyway, anyone installing a system now gets the 21p with the "chance" of getting a higher tariff thats basically what we are saying

 

[BruceB]

Ted, Have you deliberately said the FIT bands are based on DNC rather than TIC?

 

[FIT-PV]

Anbody hear this??

"Solar firms call for High Court case to be dropped to end uncertainty around rates for customers"

 

[Noddy67]

OK, so

installations before the 12/12 will almost certainly be 43.3p until 1 April, and 43.3p after 1 April.
installations between the 12/12 and 3/3 will almost certainly be 43.3p until 1 April and will almost certainly be at least 21p but may be 43.3p after 1 April depending on the court case
installations between the 3/3 will almost certainly be 43.3p until 1 April, and will most probably be 21p after 1 April depending on parliament approval.

I'm glad it is all clear now!

that is clear, thank you. I seem to remember we're not supposed to be at the clients house for more than two hours selling our wares. Does this include or exclude the 30 minute explanation time of the above?

with that and the "how does it know to take the electricity from the PV system not the grid" question and I've only got an hour left.

 

[TedM]

Ted, Have you deliberately said the FIT bands are based on DNC rather than TIC?

I hadn't noticed TBH. I just copied that direct from the DECC announcement. I suspect it is a mistake, though I haven't seen the actual draft of the Standard Licence Conditions yet,

 

[mdovey]

I agree with Ted that it is probably a mistake - however, the "Written Ministerial Statement on Solar PV Feed-in Tariffs" published by DECC definitely states "Band (kW Declared Net Capacity (DNC)" (notice the missing bracket too!), so it does raise the element of doubt that there might be a move afoot to move from TIC to DNC for calculating FITs (I wonder what the legal situation is if someone manages to install a >4kW TIC but <4kW DNC system before DECC issue a correction?)

OK, so I got confused between TIC and DNC yesterday, but you would have thought that a Minister of State who has already lost the confidence of the solar and renewable industry, whose competence has already been questioned by a parliamentary committee and the judiciary, would have taken more care in a written statement to parliament supposedly intended to provide clarity to confusion caused by that minister!

 

[Broadswordcalli]

Noddy67,
What about the hour trying to answer the question " What's to stop any of the numpties in Parliament changing their mind in the future" question, which in my experience seems to be asked more and more and why I am I not surprised about that....

 

[Eco Deal]

any news on C RATING AFTER 3rd march !!!!1

 

[mdovey]

Noddy67,
What about the hour trying to answer the question " What's to stop any of the numpties in Parliament changing their mind in the future" question, which in my experience seems to be asked more and more and why I am I not surprised about that....

You'd like to think that the almost dead cert of a class action lawsuit might at least make them pause..

 

[sambotc]

One good thing about the rent a roof schemes then, enough money to file a lawsuit if it ever did actually arise, would be very suprised if it did though.

 

[JMT]

So I am not quite sure what this announcement gives us any more info on what we already knew. To me it doesnt take away any of the uncertainty tbh.

We already know if the government lose their appeal it was going to go back to 43.3p until end of march, and that the rate is currently sitting at 21p according to the announcement the decc had on their website a few days ago.

So to me the only thing that is different is that if they lose instead of the cut off date for 43.3p being end of march it is now beginning.

Have I Got that right?

 

[TedM]

That's right.

All that has really happened is that DECC have started the 40-day parliamentary clock ticking in order to implement these changes. They were going to have to do this anyway to meet the 1st April implementation date for any of the consultation changes and the annual RPI updates. Those will now follow-on with yet another draft of the Standard Licence Conditions being laid before parliament before the end of February.

 

[Earthstore]

There is still no clarification that if you sell a system after the 12th of dec it will stay on the tariff that you sold it at (whatever that may be).

The original statement was; if you sell a system after the 12th dec it will be 43.3p until April, then that tariff will be reduced to a proposed 21p.

The only difference seems to be that, now, until March it will be a minimum of 21p.

Greg Barker has not followed any procedures to arrive at this feeble attempt to console the Industry, so far all he has actually achieved is lose one court case for making the changes illegally.

 

[moggy1968]

I think the idea is this only becomes relevant if the government lose their court action so they can still bring in the 21p rate from early march. I fthey waited until the end of the court decision they would have to wait 40 days for the due legal process before the rate could be cut to 21p. This might, they fear, lead to another feeding frenzy. Installs done after 12th of dec but before the march date would get the 43.3 rate for the 25 years if the rate change that affected them is deemed illegal.

If they win then this is irrlevant as all installs after 12dec get 21p after march

it's CYA

 

[solarsparkie]

Electricity is consumed from the PV system rather than the grid as the output voltage is slightly higher than grid voltage which would be as to water it must flow downhill

that is clear, thank you. I seem to remember we're not supposed to be at the clients house for more than two hours selling our wares. Does this include or exclude the 30 minute explanation time of the above?

with that and the "how does it know to take the electricity from the PV system not the grid" question and I've only got an hour left.

 

[Markc]

I think the latest release does tie some loose ends up. Certainly for the <4kWp system also.

Given this announcement we can with certainty, possibly, maybe, perhaps say anything installed after 3rd March will be at 21p. Anything installed between now and then will get 43p until end march then 21p after unless the appeal is lost then it will be 43p for 25yrs unless installed after 3rd March which will be 21p. Clear?

On another more constructive note. I do not now buy into the assumption the 21p rate will be under threat due to the volumes of installations taken place in Nov/Dec 2011 if they lose the appeal. It was clear form the outset the numbers of installations would rocket and they knew this. The bigger plan is to introduce the Green Deal at what ever the cost as this looks good to voters. They harp on about being the greenest government yet and the plan is to show in three years time the green deal has introduced and helped X amount of homes become more energy efficient and so reducing X amount of CO2 etc etc.

They needed to act on the rate we all understand this and no mater what some say if you run the sums 21p is workable as 41p was in the beginning. The bigger picture is the EPC cert IMO and until this is conformed it is difficult to plan past April 2012. Regardless of what happens on the fiasco being the appeal it is after April we should be looking at now.

 

[TedM]

Further to the DNC/TIC point that Bruce picked up:

DECC have now confirmed that using DNC was a mistake and have amended the document to use TIC.

Thanks, good spot - the licence conditions are correct but we've updated the table in the condoc and WMS to TIC.

Written Ministerial Statement on Solar PV Feed-in Tariffs - Department of Energy and Climate Change now says:

Band (kW Total Installed Capacity)	Current generation tariff (p/kWh)	New generation tariff from 1 April 2012 (p/kWh)
≤4kW (new build)	37.8	21.0
≤4kW (retrofit)	43.3	21.0
>4-10kW	37.8	16.8
>10-50kW	32.9	15.2
>50-100kW	19	12.9
>100-150kW	19	12.9
>150-250kW	15	12.9
>250kW-5MW	8.5	8.5
stand alone	8.5	8.5

 

[BruceB]

Impressive you can have the DECC website updated within 24hrs!

May I trouble you on another point which I expect you can answer off the top of your head to save me scouring documents? Does the EPC Level C requirement proposed feature in the draft regulations, or are we waiting for more to be published? And any exemptions, eg for listed buildings?

Regards
Bruce