Minimum Qualifications Required

[Octopus]

I'm only starting this thread because 2 last night got locked by Marvo before I could respond again.

So in response to:

http://www.electriciansforums.co.uk...orum/82885-minimum-qualifications-needed.html

More harm was done by the replies to the original thread because of the en-masse stupidly thought out answers by most of the responders, which to be frank simply makes us look daft.

The OP's question was quite simple (maybe not thought out correctly) and the obvious answer was the membership of Part P via a scheme - whether we like that or not its here to stay..... I interact with sparks of all grades and from what I see there is NO correlation between a Electrical Trainee cutting corners and the bad installs I see. In fact there are a number of "time served" sparks around me who do downright dodgy, non certificated, CIH jobs.

So next time there's a thread like last nights lets keep the reponses on track and constructive...... rants about the schemes and Electrical Trainee's don't help and actually, IMHO do more harm, and make us look foolish.

Tin hat on.

Edit: I now see far more dodgy kitchen installs since the scope of Part P got relaxed...

 

[Badged01]

Have to agree with Murdoch, rules is rules whether we agree with them or not. Until the 'governing' bodies of the electrical industry alter them rules "Part P registration" will allow the Electrical Trainee to work in domestic premises after they have been assessed as "competent" by the likes of the NICEIC -- get used to it guys, its a fact of the electrical industry and no ranting on this forum is going to change that. (For clarity my personal opinion is that I disagree with much of the "Part P" process for assessing electrical profficiency/competancy).

What I believe we can do is to assist and guide them as best as we can to try and add our combined experience/knowledge into making things safer for Joe public when a "Part P tradesman" asks for assistance on work he is doing. And I will further agree with Murdoch that I have seen some damn right potentially lethal electrical work that has been completed by "time served" sparks! Unfortuntely we dont seem to be doing much as an electrical industry to weed them!!

p.s. I am not Murdoch, in any way connected to Murdoch, receiving any commission from Murdoch for 'bigging' up his post or have any desire to have Murdochs babies .....

 

[HandySparks]

Quite. Some people were clearly making assumptions about the reason for the original question, and the person asking would have done better to say why he was asking. However, he deserved a straight answer.

In some ways, it's quite understandable that the question has arisen, given how unclear the 'rules' are to everyone except electricians (and not all of them). The current situation, with the recently relaxed part P rules, is a shambles. eg, if you're putting new downlights in a typical bathroom ceiling (above zone 2) on an existing circuit you don't need to be registered and you don't need to notify the job.

 

[stuartgil]

I agree with badged01, I have completed a domestic installers course but do not consider myself an electrician at all. These training centres should be advising ppl like me to get in with an electrical company an gain experience and knowledge as there's some problems that will pop up that these courses do not cover, also it would be a great idea to have advice from professionals like yourselves rather than ppl looking on us as an outcast! I intend on getting in with a company as a mate so I can then further my quals but I was worried about coming on this forum an admitting that I had done this domestic installers course as so many seem to just jump on your back instead of giving constructive advice!!

 

[Steve_P]

I'm sorry to have to say this but it would be a lot more sensible to discuss this on a closed forum. IMHO the OP of the original post had an underlying reason for asking the question but to openly post a generic answer to the partial question, again IMHO would have been complete madness. As for Electrical Trainee's, I have no problem with people on courses and have given a number experience and advice. The courses do put people miles ahead of the general public who are legally able to buy whatever they want. Yes, the scams want us to prove competence but do LABC? In fact do the sheds actually remind anyone purchasing sayyyyy a metal clad CU with only a main switch what regs affect the kit that they are buying? I'll let you guys fill in all the blanks here but the OP was correct in saying that things need to be changed.

 

[Octopus]

The reason I started this in the open forum was to draw to the attention of as many people as possible, how stupid "we" can look with some of our posts.

 

[guest119]

So it is good and just for a time served man to give advice to somebody who missed the boat at 16yrs and comes along later, after doing some short course, to steal his job? Somebody who got a bit of redundancy money somewhere and woke up one morning and thought " tonight Mathew.........Im going to be an electrician".
That is/would be...........plain stupid.

Boydy

 

[GLENNSPARK]

I'm only starting this thread because 2 last night got locked by Marvo before I could respond again.

So in response to:

http://www.electriciansforums.co.uk...orum/82885-minimum-qualifications-needed.html

More harm was done by the replies to the original thread because of the en-masse stupidly thought out answers by most of the responders, which to be frank simply makes us look daft.

The OP's question was quite simple (maybe not thought out correctly) and the obvious answer was the membership of Part P via a scheme - whether we like that or not its here to stay..... I interact with sparks of all grades and from what I see there is NO correlation between a Electrical Trainee cutting corners and the bad installs I see. In fact there are a number of "time served" sparks around me who do downright dodgy, non certificated, CIH jobs.

So next time there's a thread like last nights lets keep the reponses on track and constructive...... rants about the schemes and Electrical Trainee's don't help and actually, IMHO do more harm, and make us look foolish.

Tin hat on.

Edit: I now see far more dodgy kitchen installs since the scope of Part P got relaxed...

i`m bloody sick of em coming in...

DIY section over there>....

 

[Sparkysoldman]

i`m bloody sick of em coming in...

DIY section over there>....

Clique

 

[Octopus]

i`m bloody sick of em coming in...

DIY section over there>....

And this attitude is EXACTLY what makes us look daft.

You don't have to post do you?

 

[Sparkysoldman]

And this attitude is EXACTLY what makes us look daft.

You don't have to post do you?

hope you've got a tin hat that's exactly the point I tried to make in the thread referred to in post 9 and I'm still smarting from the response I got !!!!

 

[mechelec]

Defend it all you like you cannot become an electrician by completing a 5 week course. The problem is someone with no practical experience then setting up their own business as a self employed electrician and being paid by a poor unsuspecting householder who thinks he must be competent as he is a member of a scheme.
Yes you can be time served and do a crap job but there is more chance of a bodge job by someone who who has little experience.
I cannot believe any electrician who has served an apprenticeship and gained site experience in a variety of roles would ever defend this route into this industry. The Industry we are all trying to make a living in and is being devalued by the week.

 

[guest119]

We all have different views.

Some are happy to help in the diy section and some dont go near it.

Some are happy to help the (obviously) Electrical Trainee brigade and some like me view them with contempt and respond accordingly as is my right as this is after all the ELECTRICIANS FORUM. If they come on the general forum asking stupid/basic questions they will get pelted by me and many others.

It is cringing to watch members responding to daft questions which would be better in the diy section. At least then a Electrical Trainee etc would not be trying to appear to be the real deal.

Helping in private message format is just concealment/censorship.

Sorry if the above is considered a DAFT response (not).

Boydy

 

[Sparkysoldman]

We all have different views.

Some are happy to help in the diy section and some dont go near it.
some like me view them with contempt and respond accordingly as is my right as this is after all the ELECTRICIANS FORUM. If they come on the general forum asking stupid/basic questions they will get pelted by me and many others.



Boydy

So you believe it's your right to treat people with contempt. Unbelievable !!!!

 

[GLENNSPARK]

as i have said in here before umpteen times....
a lot of these `part Pers`..who just drifted in on the tide are nothing but a bunch of complete spackers....
the stuff we see that they have done/passed whatever...
christ...

we all moan about how the industry is flooded with turnips at the moment but yet folk persist in handing out free advice to complete & total timewasters....

 

[Guest55]

a casual browser of this forum would probably think that domestic work is the be all and end all of the whole electrical industry after looking through this and the many other similar threads.

the fact that all the schemes accept members to become part p domestic installers with nothing more than a 17th ed cert and a set of testers just goes to show how they've sold you all up the river and you are now left to sqabble between yourselves.

i certainly wouldnt pay £500 a year to be a member of an organisation that had a significant role in de-skilling the whole industry , but thats my choice.

so the upshot of all this is that we're all out for ourselves quite simply and nothing will change for the forseeable future.

 

[Regs]

We all have different views.

Some are happy to help in the diy section and some dont go near it.

Some are happy to help the (obviously) Electrical Trainee brigade and some like me view them with contempt and respond accordingly as is my right as this is after all the ELECTRICIANS FORUM. If they come on the general forum asking stupid/basic questions they will get pelted by me and many others.

It is cringing to watch members responding to daft questions which would be better in the diy section. At least then a Electrical Trainee etc would not be trying to appear to be the real deal.

Helping in private message format is just concealment/censorship.

Sorry if the above is considered a DAFT response (not).

Boydy

Wrong attitude to be honest, just ignore them, or tell them politely. What teaching qualifications do you have then as most of you on here think you have some god given right and experts in you fields?

 

[guest119]

Its a farmer who is an expert in his field.

Boydy

 

[Dcf]

Wrong attitude to be honest, just ignore them, or tell them politely. What teaching qualifications do you have then as most of you on here think you have some god given right and experts in you fields?

That will be the old fashioned method of passing your pearls of wisdom to the lumpen proletariate beneath you.
sometime called experience.
i have loads.
ill keep it to myself if that's alright

 

[telectrix]

experience is not a thing that can be passed on. crabs, genital warts, AIDS, these can all be passed on. experience has to be learnt.

 

[Badged01]

Thats where I must have gone wrong Tel, didnt get the experience but got the rest working in the Far East ...... less the AIDS, hadnt heard of it in the early 80's!

 

[Octopus]

Wrong attitude to be honest, just ignore them, or tell them politely. What teaching qualifications do you have then as most of you on here think you have some god given right and experts in you fields?

Said by a poster who's been less than honest with the forum.

 

[KAS1]

I've only just read this thread, I'm sick of the stupid questions that are asked by so called skilled people it's embarrassing IMO so I say some of them need the P1zz talking out of them because they sure as hell will get it taken out of them on site lol

 

[Regs]

Said by a poster who's been less than honest with the forum.

But that is the hole problem its not really a forum is it. A forum is a place i thought where different people come and talk, exchange experience
This is a dictatorship run by mostly a bunch of clicky wining women who think they have some right to teach and judge others and get off on it!. Whether you like it or not thats the truth.

Whilst some are genuine and want to help others.

 

[Octopus]

But that is the hole problem its not really a forum is it. A forum is a place i thought where different people come and talk, exchange experience
This is a dictatorship run by mostly a bunch of clicky wining women who think they have some right to teach and judge others and get off on it!. Whether you like it or not thats the truth.

Whilst some are genuine and want to help others.

As I stated, YOU have been less than honest with the forum, haven't you.

If you look at my posts they are generally very helpful.

If you don't like it you can go else where......

 

[KAS1]

Nothing wrong with helping other sparks, however some people ask the basics, so they can hardly be called a spark.

 

[GLENNSPARK]

experience is not a thing that can be passed on. crabs, genital warts, AIDS, these can all be passed on. experience has to be learnt.

well...
you could say you had learnt a lesson though couldn`t you...either way

 

[GLENNSPARK]

experience is not a thing that can be passed on. crabs, genital warts, AIDS, these can all be passed on. experience has to be learnt.

and just when i thought we had reached rock bottom...
then you come out with....

 

[SirKit Breaker]

OOH Dear handbags!

I am not going to get tangled in the pro's and con's of all of this, but i will voice my opinions in the good name of the forum.

It is the Electricians Forum, but it is also a public forum, and as such it is not restricted to Electricians. So irrespective of what yours/my opinions are about people who post in may be, we must all act properly.

People have a right to post their views/opinions etc rightly or wrongly in a public forum, we have a right to respond or ignore the posts as we see fit. What we don't have is the right to offend or belittle people because they are not Electricians and are posting in the Electricians forum asking for advice etc etc for whatever reason, this is what gets us a bad name.

This forum is run by a handful of people who put a hell of a lot of time and effort into it for no reward, it only takes a few snide remarks to undo all their hard work, so remember this the next time you choose to "have a go".

I think the DIY forum is an excellent idea, i am more than happy to post and advise in there, and this is why. Over the years i have been on no end of forums looking for advice about no end of different things, and for the most part the advice given has been excellent, even when that advice was not was i was wanting to hear like "I suggest you contact a diesel specialist".

Why do Electricians see themselves as being above everyone else just because we did an Apprenticeship? We are not the only apprentice trained trade out there, and we are not the only trade who has people in it without formal qualifications.

This post is not aimed at any one particular person, nor is intended to offend, but some people need to grow up and show some maturity. The best trades people will always prevail, irrespective of their background.

Cheers...............Howard

 

[Sparkysoldman]

OOH Dear handbags!

I am not going to get tangled in the pro's and con's of all of this, but i will voice my opinions in the good name of the forum.

It is the Electricians Forum, but it is also a public forum, and as such it is not restricted to Electricians. So irrespective of what yours/my opinions are about people who post in may be, we must all act properly.

People have a right to post their views/opinions etc rightly or wrongly in a public forum, we have a right to respond or ignore the posts as we see fit. What we don't have is the right to offend or belittle people because they are not Electricians and are posting in the Electricians forum asking for advice etc etc for whatever reason, this is what gets us a bad name.

This forum is run by a handful of people who put a hell of a lot of time and effort into it for no reward, it only takes a few snide remarks to undo all their hard work, so remember this the next time you choose to "have a go".

I think the DIY forum is an excellent idea, i am more than happy to post and advise in there, and this is why. Over the years i have been on no end of forums looking for advice about no end of different things, and for the most part the advice given has been excellent, even when that advice was not was i was wanting to hear like "I suggest you contact a diesel specialist".

Why do Electricians see themselves as being above everyone else just because we did an Apprenticeship? We are not the only apprentice trained trade out there, and we are not the only trade who has people in it without formal qualifications.

This post is not aimed at any one particular person, nor is intended to offend, but some people need to grow up and show some maturity. The best trades people will always prevail, irrespective of their background.

Cheers...............Howard

Very long post very short reply Spot on !!!!