Discuss New MCS MIS3002 and PV Guide in the Solar PV Forum | Solar Panels Forum area at ElectriciansForums.net

Think I may be setting myself up to look like an idiot, but does anybody else find the explanation of how to carry out a manual sun shading analysis highly confusing?

Surely it's just easier to buy a tester that does it for you, or am I missing something (been a long day)????
 
Just got this from ECA ...

"I have spoken to our technical department and they have advised me that any quotes you have done before today can go under the 2006 guide and any quotes you make from today onwards will need to be under the new guide rules."

I'm off to quote a job in 30 mins, they seriously expect me to go with guidelines that have been published for the first time today!?

I'm getting them to clarify right now....
 
From the MCS email: "[FONT=&quot]Installation companies will have three months before they must work to the new version of MIS 3002 issue 3.0. Before that date (7[SUP]th[/SUP] May 2013), installation companies can use the new version of MIS 3002 issue 3.0 and the new PV Guide if they choose to do so."[/FONT]
 
Just got this from ECA ...

"I have spoken to our technical department and they have advised me that any quotes you have done before today can go under the 2006 guide and any quotes you make from today onwards will need to be under the new guide rules."

I'm off to quote a job in 30 mins, they seriously expect me to go with guidelines that have been published for the first time today!?

I'm getting them to clarify right now....

I think there's a intervening period during which the previous method will still be acceptable:

"Installation companies will have three months before they must work to the new version of MIS 3002 issue 3.0. Before that date (7[SUP]th[/SUP] May 2013), installation companies can use the new version of MIS 3002 issue 3.0 and the new PV Guide if they choose to do so."
 
I'm just scan reading it to get an overview. First impressions are that this will work in favour of the reputable companies. Because the sharp suited guys will struggle with this.....

Second...Its the shading procedure that seems to be the biggest change........That and the post code zones...

I'm reading it from the SAP cal viewpoint.........
 
Phew, this sounds more reasonable...

"I’ve had a check with technical again and yes you do have a 3 month period to adopt the new guidelines but you cannot use a mixture of both. I.e. as soon as you’ve started using the new guidelines then you will need to use them for all quotations from there onwards."
 
looks to me when this takes effect it will be even harder to sell panels.

If im reading this correct utilising the irradiance say for Norwich 35 deg slope and south facing will reduce the yearly calc by near 400 a year, when in reality the SAP2009 we well and truly slaughters that figure even in the worst sunlight year for 100 years. (IE) 4kw system did 3830, when sap 2009 said 3434.

Have i read this right
 
You are incorrect. the SAP kWh/kWp for zone 12 for south facing 35 degree roof is 961 kWh/kWp. Assuming no shading the prediction would be 961 kWh x 4 kWp = 3884 kWh

So in increase of 400 kWh or so

It will make the selling of PV systems easier to an extent. Harder for places like Inverness for those who relied in SAP 2009, we haven't relied on SAP calcs at all up till now although do provide them in our quotes but not used for our performance estimates
 
Haven't looked at the new guide properly yet (in a moment of wanton frivolity, I ordered a hard copy for £9.99 off the Elecsa website so will wait for that to arrive and get stuck in with a cuppa) but am I correct in assuming that the shading assessment is more involved at the survey stage? If we will be doing more work in order to submit a quote and component prices are creeping up too, will we see installation prices increase to compensate? Will this damper customer enthusiasm all over again?
 
It certainly looks like a shading analysis needs to be performed at the survey stage, preferably from a window below where the array will go. So, yes, more paperwork. Looks like this can be excluded if there's clearly no shading.
 
We have quite often done this with a shading selector tool to assess the shading. Its fairly simple to do but you have to be careful to take into account the orientation of the roof, an east facing system with shading up until 10 am throughout the year would have a massive impact on the system potentially making it unsuitable. Whereas a south facing roof with shading up till 10 am the shading losses would be in the region of 5-10% roughly.
 
hmm.

There's a few things I'm not happy with in there...

Performance estimates are basically just an updating of the flawed SAP methods and are only marginally better, but fiendishly complex - they're certainly not going to stop any of the dodgy lying gits in the shiny suits from lying through their teeth about performance estimates then going bust before the liability claims roll in. As I read this they're at best around 15-20% accurate once you take into account the +/- 10% accuracy of the shading estimate, and the 15-20% varation from the average sunlight levels there is for our region (East Penines) between the east coast, and the Penine areas.

Fair enough if companies don't have a better system than this, then make them use this method, but it's ridiculous to make companies give greater prominance to such a flawed methodology than to a far more sophisticated and accurate method using 3d modelling for shading impact, and PVGIS for highly accurate localised sunlight and temperature data.

It also severely penalises those using more efficient inverter set ups as it makes no allowance for this at all that I can see, yet there can be a 5% performance advantage between an old style inverter and the latest high efficiency TL inverters operating at the peak efficiency point. The shading factor also makes no allowances for inverters with shading functions, or micro inverters, or system designs with dual trackers and correctly orinetated panels to minimise the shading impact, it's just a one size fits all package that means all companies will have to estimate the same output from all system designs, which will put more costly but better performing systems at a distinct disadvantage.

TBH I'm pretty well minded to tell them that we're going to refuse to comply with this guidance as we don't think companies should be penalised for using better equipment, better system designs, and much more accurate methods of producing performance estimates. Let's see them make that one stick in court if they dared to take it that far.
 
Looks like the Kk value for projected yields (per postcode zone) have already been multiplied by 0.8. There are some "handy" disclaimers that the Guide recommends to be used when presenting your proposals to end-clients, but it's clear that what these techniques will effectively do is to remove any differentiators between panels/inverters from one manufacturer and another. Should you decide to also provide additional analytical information to your end-client, the provision of the below statement seems to be required:

3.7.9 Additional Estimates
Additional estimates may be provided using an alternative methodology, including proprietary
software packages, but any such estimates must clearly describe and justify the approach taken
and factors used and must not be given greater prominence than the standard MCS estimate. In
addition, it must be accompanied by a warning stating that it should be treated with caution if it is
significantly greater than the result given by the standard method.
 
Anyone need one of these?......
Sun-Path_Tool.jpg
 
I'd quite like the bubble putting back into one of them we've got, as the bubble escaped somewhere which makes it a bit hard to know if it's level or not.
 

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