New rewire and fuse board - views on work.

[Debrahim]

Hi,

I’d appreciate views on the fuse board.

B15507-C3-D860-4-B7-C-B670-7-C9332043-AB4 hosted at ImgBB

Image B15507-C3-D860-4-B7-C-B670-7-C9332043-AB4 hosted in ImgBB

ibb.co

It’s been completely rewired and I’m unhappy with the quality.

I’ve messaged him about it and described the board as a complete mess, and poor workmanship ship. For entry for the 25mm cables and 16mm tails he used the knock out but didn’t bother using the plastic cable holder - which is a couple of quid.

Also with the cables coming in through the back, there is no plastic or anything so the metal of the board could rub against the metal of the board.

his reply is below

a. - there is a reason why cables shouldn't be perfectly arrange in the fuse box because it could create electromagnetic field resulting in humming sound in the fuse box- you would probably think that's ridiculous ! But it's a fact!


Quite frankly I’m shocked, would you be happy with the work, paying over 4k? And supplying the board all second fix items etc? So basically 5k?

He has also created 5 additional lighting circuits downstairs, I live in a three bed terraced house.

1) for 6 down lights in a 2.5m x 2m room.
2) just the ground hallway light.
3) the lounge dinner, two lights and two wall lights.
4) a porch light and floodlight.
5) under stairs light simply 2 lights.

His reply is that it is is better… but then it’s all on a dual rcd so it doesn’t really help in my opinion.

We agreed the whole of downstairs on a circuit except the hallway on a separate one. (He said that was best practice.

I’ve attached photos and the pieces that I believe should go there. One is too big.

 

[westward10]

Yes it doesn't look great and dual rcd consumer units are not recommended for residential installations. Has this been done by an electrician or a builder who think they are an electrician.
You say it has been completely rewired yet there are cables with red and black cores.

 

[hasel5]

Assume that's the before it was rewired ?

 

[DPG]

8 circuits on one RCD - that's not good.

Decent quality board though. And an SPD fitted.

Cracking excuse for untidy wiring - it avoids electromagnetic interference making the fuseboard hum!!

 

[Dustydazzler]

If those cables lashed down the wall is the 'finished job' then I would not be happy

Needs some plastic trunking and a good general tidy up

 

[Debrahim]

Yes it doesn't look great and dual rcd consumer units are not recommended for residential installations. Has this been done by an electrician or a builder who think they are an electrician.
You say it has been completely rewired yet there are cables with red and black cores.

I’ve noticed this and have pointed this out.

He is a niceic registered electrician which I’ve verified with them.

I’ve also noted that if the fuse on the right goes I will loose both power and lights to the upstairs and third floor (loft).

As an electrician would you be satisfied with the standard of work ? He deems it good quality and states he’s been registered for 15 years.

I’ve checked on the website, he’s part P. I found him on my builder with over 100 reviews and 100% positive rating.

You say dual rcd is not recommended. If im honest I didn’t want to spend the money on a rcbo- there are 14 circuits.

If I wanted to change this to a rcbo, could I simply buy the rcbo’ or would I need to install a whole new board ?

Is it possible in this fuse board to add a third rcd, to split some of the stuff, in case one trips etc ?

Or even is it possible to put an rcbo in there? Obviously I know it would need to come before the RCD.


Perhaps just for upstairs sockets so we have some power in an emergency.

Assume that's the before it was rewired ?

no this is after the rewire.

 

[westward10]

This individual should not have installed a dual rcd consumer unit and the fact there are cables with red and black cores indicate it has not been fully rewired.

 

[SJD]

The board has 3 neutral bars, so it should be possible to fit one or more RCBOs between the main switch and the first RCD.

But one more comment - the board seems pretty full. It is good practice to leave several spare ways for future use, for the stuff you might need in the future but haven't yet thought of.

 

[Debrahim]

To clarify he wanted to supply and fit some crap board.

I BOUGHT the HAGER board and chose it with SPD protection.

I agree that there are too many circuits on the one RCD.

I’m refusing to pay him the final payment - he is going to come around and sort it.

The Idea was to have several spare ways but for ground floor lighting he has used 5 circuits !!!

 

[nicebutdim]

The Idea was to have several spare ways but for ground floor lighting he has used 5 circuits !!!

There's nothing wrong with having lighting broken down into so many circuits, although it is very likely to be pointless. As you've stated, a fault to earth will take them all out, along with every other circuit protected by the same RCD.

 

[Welchyboy1]

How has it been fully rewired with all those red and black circuits in there?
that’s a total dogs dinner, is that actually the finished job or halfway through the job?

as said above, if that’s the CU your working with, maybe 3 or 4 rcbos at the front would help a bit to split the circuits up

what’s the deal with the plastic Hager board below and the wylex one hanging of the wall to the left?

 

[westward10]

You purchased it, he should not have fitted it.

 

[Welchyboy1]

there is a reason why cables shouldn't be perfectly arrange in the fuse box because it could create electromagnetic field resulting in humming sound in the fuse box

Thats an absolute cracker that!!

 

[littlespark]

As others have said, red and black hasn't been used for new installations since 2007.

If it was a rewire, then carpets up, boards up, decorating after. Different than just changing the board.
If it was a full rewire, id be checking more than just the board....

Come to think of it.... why is the cover off?

 

[westward10]

Never fitted a Hager board with SPD but something doesn't look right. Is that how the lower supply is connected and is there a cpc to it, the galvanised link across the top of the earth terminals looks odd.

 

[Dustydazzler]

If I were to attend any domestic job and the home owner tells me that the property is FULLY RE_WIRED and I drop the lid off the board to find loads and loads of red and black cable then it has not been FULLY RE_WIRED.
As for the dogs dinner of a new board well some sparks just dont care and the board is pretty standard to what I find on a weekly basis.
The lashed in cables could have been made to look much neater and as I mention above 25 quids worth of plastic trunking up the all would have made it look at least like they gave a Sh!t

 

[littlespark]

This is the question.

Apart from being a little untidy, does the work conform to BS7671. (good workmanship not withstanding)

Was a certificate issued would be the more important question.

 

[nicebutdim]

As others have said, red and black hasn't been used for new installations since 2007.

If it was a rewire, then carpets up, boards up, decorating after. Different than just changing the board.
If it was a full rewire, id be checking more than just the board....

Come to think of it.... why is the cover off?

Presumably removed by the OP for purposes of taking the picture.

More concerning is the board swinging in the breeze with no cover, to bottom left of image.

 

[Dustydazzler]

Presumably removed by the OP for purposes of taking the picture.

More concerning is the board swinging in the breeze with no cover, to bottom left of image.

I assumed this was the old board just temporarily left on for a builder supply for tools , kettle etc.
I hope it isn't still live and been left like that

 

[SJD]

Never fitted a Hager board with SPD but something doesn't look right. Is that have the lower supply is connected and is there a cpc to it, the galvanised link across the top of the earth terminals looks odd.

It is difficult to see, but my understanding is the two top connections of the SPD are Earth, and while I can see they are linked, I can't actually see any earth cable connecting them to the earth terminal.

 

[Debrahim]

You purchased it, he should not have fitted it.

Hi, I told him I wanted a hager board. He mentioned it needs SPD, and RCD protection, and that it needs x amount of ways. I sent him links of the board, and he agreed to it, and I ordered it from a reputable wholesaler name beginning with T.

 

[Debrahim]

He knows my job - and is silly enough to put stuff like this in writing!.
He is insistent that the board is up to scratch, good quality etc, despite nothing covering the holes where the fingers come in, (child finger could fit in), he thinks its a good install, and that the NICEIC would say it is all good.

 

[Debrahim]

Hi, I took the photo when he was in the loo or nipped to the van. That board was left on, - him leaving it to the plasterer to disconnect etc.

 

[nicebutdim]

He knows my job - and is silly enough to put stuff like this in writing!.
He is insistent that the board is up to scratch, good quality etc, despite nothing covering the holes where the fingers come in, (child finger could fit in), he thinks its a good install, and that the NICEIC would say it is all good.

Which holes are you referring to? The image isn't very clear. *Edit: I can now see the incoming tails.

Hi, I took the photo when he was in the loo or nipped to the van. That board was left on, - him leaving it to the plasterer to disconnect etc.

So this isn't the finished job?

 

[Debrahim]

Hi, no it was left open, I wouldn't have even have thought to check the board, It was when he was working on it, and nipped to the loo/ or to the van I can't remember.

The cover is in place now, and the old board removed.

Someone asked about the plaster Hager board below - that was installed in 2012 for our kitchen extension. I've not opened it, so can't comment on quality etc.

I've had metal switches/plugs installed - my understanding is that they need their own earthing. Is it legal for me to simply unscrew to open (clearly won't touch anything etc) to take a photo.

He thinks the job is complete and is chasing me for money. I'm worried about the rest of the install given the way the fuse board has been hashed together.

He finally agreed to come and sort the board, and I was going to pay him after that, so that I get my certificate. But given the comments i'm unsure what to do next.

 

[westward10]

Can he explain the cables with red and black cores.

 

[Debrahim]

Which holes are you referring to? The image isn't very clear. *Edit: I can now see the incoming tails.



So this isn't the finished job?

Hi yes this is the finished job. He wants payment and will then issue the certificate.

 

[Debrahim]

Can he explain the cables with red and black cores.

This will be put to to him.

 

[Debrahim]

Presumably removed by the OP for purposes of taking the picture.

More concerning is the board swinging in the breeze with no cover, to bottom left of image.

Nope, it was left off by him. I haven't removed the cover. I wouldn't like to fall foul of the law. If it is legal, then I can take an updated pic although he is coming on Wednesday to rectify.

 

[Dustydazzler]

The job isn't FINSIHSED until you get your EIC (certificate) and YOU are 100% with the JOB you were quoted for. IF you are NOT happy then DONT PAY

 

[nicebutdim]

You purchased it, he should not have fitted it.

Would you refuse to fit a Hager dual RCD board if the customer specifically asked you to?

 

[Debrahim]

The job isn't FINSIHSED until you get your EIC (certificate) and YOU are 100% with the JOB you were quoted for. IF you are NOT happy then DONT PAY

He emailed me the day he "finished" at 11.36pm, demanding payment by the next morning. Then texted me after midnight, as I informed him at 4pm just after he left, one of the lights was not working demanding the balance minus a grand.

I've outright refused to pay, but today I ordered the parts, namely for the 25mm and 16mm earth so kiddies can't get their hands in, and for the knockouts in the back which makes it safe, i.e plastic. Namely Hager VM02CE Hager VM02CE Insulated Cable Entry Plate for Design 10, 30 & 50 Consumer Units - https://www.consumerunitworld.co.uk/hager-vm02ce-insulated-cable-entry-plate-3331-p.asp

and the tails entry kit: Meter Tail Entry Cable Protector Plate Open (Pack of 10) - https://www.cef.co.uk/catalogue/products/4658785-meter-tail-entry-cable-protector-plate-open?gclid=Cj0KCQiAzeSdBhC4ARIsACj36uFfeHL5fAIyG94Rz4rVnmbxuvNpj-aajolHZS45ulNG3JzSKA7YXG8aAhh6EALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds

 

[Debrahim]

Would you refuse to fit a Hager dual RCD board if the customer specifically asked you to?

Just to add the box was sealed, and came from TLC, and he approved it, told me which breakers etc to order.

 

[Dustydazzler]

Just to add the box was sealed, and came from TLC, and he approved it, told me which breakers etc to order.

No issue with this approach

Although I would have tried my best to persuade you to go for a full Rcbo board , for the extra 90-100 quid on materials it is a far superior set up

 

[westward10]

Would you refuse to fit a Hager dual RCD board if the customer specifically asked you to?

Yes the Regulations do not advise them for residential properties.

 

[Debrahim]

This is the question.

Apart from being a little untidy, does the work conform to BS7671. (good workmanship not withstanding)

Was a certificate issued would be the more important question.

Can someone confirm, if there is a code number under BS standards that the work needs to be good workmanship.

He has said I can complain to the NICEIC and they will tell me there is nothing wrong.

He is withholding the certificate until I pay in full. In such circumstances what can I do? Effectively being told if I don't pay up - then tough,

As above i've ordered the bits above, for him to fit - and if he was going to organise tidying up the board then I was going to pay him in full get my cert and call it a day.

Looking at the contract, unfortunately despite discussing it, and when posting on my builder asking for a full rewire, I forgot to include the light under the stairs, and the socket. Hence two circuits being old.

 

[nicebutdim]

Yes the Regulations do not advise them for residential properties.

I understand that, and the reasons why, but if a customer specifically requested fitment of a quality dual RCD board, I can't see any reason not to.

I'd certainly put forth a persuasive argument in favour of an alternative set up, but can't think of any reason why one shouldn't be fitted at a customer's request.

 

[westward10]

I understand that, and the reasons why, but if a customer specifically requested fitment of a quality dual RCD board, I can't see any reason not to.

I'd certainly put forth a persuasive argument in favour of an alternative set up, but can't think of any reason why one shouldn't be fitted at a customer's request.

You are likely to need to list it as a departure something you really don't want to be doing, see Regulation 531.3.2 (ii). What the customer wants should not sway you from what is correct.

 

[Debrahim]

I understand that, and the reasons why, but if a customer specifically requested fitment of a quality dual RCD board, I can't see any reason not to.

I'd certainly put forth a persuasive argument in favour of an alternative set up, but can't think of any reason why one shouldn't be fitted at a customer's request.

Hold on, his quote was to supply and fit a dual RCD fuse board made by contactum (spelling). His quote was never RCBO etc.

 

[timhoward]

It is difficult to see, but my understanding is the two top connections of the SPD are Earth, and while I can see they are linked, I can't actually see any earth cable connecting them to the earth terminal.

@westward10 my understanding is that they look like this - and I'd expect to see some glimpse of the CPC .

You say dual rcd is not recommended. If im honest I didn’t want to spend the money on a rcbo- there are 14 circuits.

That wasn't the wisest move really.

To clarify he wanted to supply and fit some crap board.

What did he want to fit? Was it Fusebox? Any RCBO board would have been better.
If you supplied the board how did he end up with exactly the right number of B6 breakers for lighting unless you also knew the plan in advance?

I understand that, and the reasons why, but if a customer specifically requested fitment of a quality dual RCD board, I can't see any reason not to.

The main reason is that the regs encourage us to design to limit cumulative earth leakage and specifically tell us to consider RCBO's in residential premises. (Section 314 and section 531.3.2 )

 

[Debrahim]

Yes the Regulations do not advise them for residential properties.

Was he incorrect in then specifying and quoting for a dual rcd board from contactum (spelling). I merely wanted a better brand.

 

[nicebutdim]

Can someone confirm, if there is a code number under BS standards that the work needs to be good workmanship.

The problem is defining what constitutes good workmanship. Untidyness is less than ideal, but not problematic in itself.

A small amount of sealant and some grommet strip solves the tails issue and a few clips to provide adequate support on their route up to the board (if not already in place). It's difficult to discern other issues from the image provided.

 

[nicebutdim]

Hold on, his quote was to supply and fit a dual RCD fuse board made by contactum (spelling). His quote was never RCBO etc.

I can only comment on what you've posted and in post #6 you state "If im honest I didn’t want to spend the money on a rcbo- there are 14 circuits".

 

[nicebutdim]

Was he incorrect in then specifying and quoting for a dual rcd board from contactum (spelling). I merely wanted a better brand.

The general consensus will be that dual RCD boards should be avoided and I'd fully agree with that.

It's worth pointing out that Contactum is not a cr*p brand as per your previous statement. Contactum or Hager would have been perfectly good options with RCBOs in place of the current dual RCDs, although as @timhoward points out CP Fusebox provide a very good value alternative.

 

[nicebutdim]

You are likely to need to list it as a departure something you really don't want to be doing, see Regulation 531.3.2 (ii). What the customer wants should not sway you from what is correct.

I'm fairly intransigent and can't imagine being swayed on the matter by a customer, but wanted to play devil's advocate.

 

[Debrahim]

@westward10 my understanding is that they look like this - and I'd expect to see some glimpse of the CPC .
View attachment 105116


That wasn't the wisest move really.

What did he want to fit? Was it Fusebox? Any RCBO board would have been better.
If you supplied the board how did he end up with exactly the right number of B6 breakers for lighting unless you also knew the plan in advance?

The main reason is that the regs encourage us to design to limit cumulative earth leakage and specifically tell us to consider RCBO's in residential premises. (Section 314 and section 531.3.2 )

If he had recommended, a RCBO and the reasons for it, i'd have it done. His quote states "1. Supply and Installation of x 1 Dual RCD Consumer unit with SPD' He told me the brand was contactum. I wanted Hager or schneider.

As to the B6 breakers, as I bought a much bigger board I knew there would be gaps. Also I wasn't sure if each smoke detector needs its only 6 amp breaker so thought best to buy extra of those. They are only 3 pounds and a blank is over` £1. I thought it wise to buy those, but I also have 5 extra mcb's not fitted which I can take a photo of, a 6, 16, 20, 20, 32. So I bought a mixture.

I have it in writing, that the plan is to have a ground, 1st floor, and loft where the circuits are 32 amp, and lighting is 6.
I asked about the smoke detectors running off the 6 amp for the lighting, and was told it will be on a "separate circuit from the consumer unit not from the light".

Well it is connected to the same circuit breaker that does the kitchen lights.

 

[Debrahim]

The general consensus will be that dual RCD boards should be avoided and I'd fully agree with that.

It's worth pointing out that Contactum is not a cr*p brand as per your previous statement. Contactum or Hager would have been perfectly good options with RCBOs in place of the current dual RCDs, although as @timhoward points out CP Fusebox provide a very good value alternative.

Fair enough - every electrician I asked said they wouldn't go near contactum, and I already had a Hager so thought it makes sense. Secondly where do you keep getting RCBO's from? The quote was for a dual RCD board. RCBO's were never mentioned, perhaps if I had been told the benefits I would have bought them.

 

[nicebutdim]

If he had recommended, a RCBO and the reasons for it, i'd have it done. His quote states "1. Supply and Installation of x 1 Dual RCD Consumer unit with SPD' He told me the brand was contactum. I wanted Hager or schneider.

As to the B6 breakers, as I bought a much bigger board I knew there would be gaps. Also I wasn't sure if each smoke detector needs its only 6 amp breaker so thought best to buy extra of those. They are only 3 pounds and a blank is over` £1. I thought it wise to buy those, but I also have 5 extra mcb's not fitted which I can take a photo of, a 6, 16, 20, 20, 32. So I bought a mixture.

I have it in writing, that the plan is to have a ground, 1st floor, and loft where the circuits are 32 amp, and lighting is 6.
I asked about the smoke detectors running off the 6 amp for the lighting, and was told it will be on a "separate circuit from the consumer unit not from the light".

Well it is connected to the same circuit breaker that does the kitchen lights.

The above is one of many reasons why a lot of electricians insist upon supplying materials - or at the very least writing a comprehensive list.

Your new board is not what many would recommend, for reasons previously outlined, but having a dual RCD board doens't present any inherent danger. It can be argued that such boards should no longer be fitted, and I'd be the first to argue that very point, but changing it again will present significant cost and this would be borne by you as the board was your choice.

Provided the wiring in your home is good, and connections sound, the risk of problems should be exceptionally low and it might be best to get any real issues resolved and chalk the rest up to experience. I doubt you'll be using this electrician again, but in future would look for word of mouth recommendations or ask for someone local on a specialist forum like this one.

 

[timhoward]

Was he incorrect in then specifying and quoting for a dual rcd board from contactum (spelling). I merely wanted a better brand.

It's a slightly subjective one. "RCDs shall be selected and the circuits subdivided in such a way that any earth leakage current likely to occur during normal operation of the connected load will not cause unwanted tripping of the device"
One might argue that stacking 8 (or 7 and a spare?) circuits on a single RCD is pushing it a bit.
On the other hand if he measured the normal leakage current as <=9ma then he's complied with a further ident of the same reg.

I think you've had good advice already. It's not neat and tidy, it could use some cable restraint, and wiser decisions could have been made laying out the board. They look like Type A RCD's, it has SPD protection and it's a decent brand.

It sounds as though you have had an almost complete rewire for a pretty decent price for London.
The smoke alarm setup is probably in fact a good idea as if that circuit trips you will know about it as it is also feeding lighting.

I actually can't see an NICEIC complaint getting far with this one, we've seen much worse on here and their first response will be to ask you to put your complaints in writing to the sparks anyway. They will only get involved (and reluctantly) if relationships completely break down or he refuses to address your complaint.
I'd suggest a civil conversation with him to request he tidies up a bit, and double check there's a CPC wire in the SPD.

 

[nicebutdim]

Fair enough - every electrician I asked said they wouldn't go near contactum, and I already had a Hager so thought it makes sense. Secondly where do you keep getting RCBO's from? The quote was for a dual RCD board. RCBO's were never mentioned, perhaps if I had been told the benefits I would have bought them.

I can't think of any reason why they might make such a statement or why you'd heed their advice about boards, while not having them work in your home. Certainly not my first choice of board, but that's not down to quality - as it happens, there's a Contactum board less than 6 feet from me as I type.