No earth in lighting circuit what next?

[Midwest]

I don’t always agree with spinlondon , but I’m also not sure HaSaW Act applies in domestic properties, think you’ll have better luck with CDM regs, if appropriate?

 

[peterhyper]

Very interesting thread, if not a little concerning that there are so many differing opinions on something as basic as no cpc on a lighting circuit.

So to summarise, what have we learned:

Some apparently do an extensive EICR on every light switch and light fitting as well as well as every other circuit prior to quoting for a C/U change (aren't they lucky to find all their customers willing to pay for this inconvenience to them just to get a quote). Some open the fuseboard and that tells them everything they need to know (I wonder if they know Wednesday's lotto numbers). Some charge for an hour's check before quoting (not sure how much they can check in an hour - unless it's a shed), and some don't do any checks prior to installing a C/U.

Some would not reconnect a light circuit that doesn't have a cpc unless the customer crosses their palm with silver and pays them to make it good. But if they discovered a dangerous circuit during an EICR, it's okay to reconnect it because it's just an EICR and they aren't working on the circuit?

Some suggest we should rewire a light circuit with no cpc for free if we didn't check it before replacing the C/U.

Some think we could be prosecuted if we connect an existing lighting circuit with no cpc to a new improved C/U with RCDs and other safety improvements.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

The only time you can apply HASWA and EAWR to a domestic installation, is when work is being conducted.
Once the work has been completed, they no longer apply.
As long as the person conducting the work conducts it in a safe manner and does not endanger anyone else, there is no breach.

With respect to BS7671, there is no requirement to upgrade any part of an installation.
There is no requirement to rectify faults found in an existing installation.
There is no requirement to refuse work on a part of an installation, because another part does not comply.

There is however a requirement not to do any work that will leave an installation less safe.
There is also a requirement to comment on unsafe conditions in an existing installation (where reasonably practicable).

 

[sparksburnout]

"What needs to happen is what applies in Ireland. It is a criminal offence for an unregistered person to work on any electrical equipment. Any instances found are required to be notified by the electrician to the local Council who will investigate and prosecute in almost every case." So how would you define that then? Putting a plug on?

 

[magnoliafan89]

God..this post has been done to death now hasnt it? We seem to be running around in circles.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

Problem I have with licensing systems, is that they are more to do with protecting electrician’s income than to do with safety.

 

[45140]

Copy of guidance for clarification
Controlled Electrical Works3, as currently defined, in a domestic setting can only be carried out by a REC. There will be no legal exemption for the owner/occupier. However, minor electrical work will remain outside the scope of Restricted Electrical Works.
Restricted Electrical Works will cover:
1. the installation, commissioning, inspection and testing of a new Electrical Installation which is fixed, fastened or mounted or otherwise secured so that its position does not change and requires connection or re-connection to the distribution network or the transmission network, as the case may be;
2. the modification, installation or replacement of a Distribution Board including customer tails on either side of the Main Protective Device or of an Electrical Installation in any of the special locations listed in Part 7 of the National Rules for Electrical Installations, as the case may be;
3. the installation or replacement of one or more circuits in an Electrical Installation, including the installation of one or more additional protective devices for such circuits on a Distribution Board; or
4. the inspection, testing or certification of, or reporting on, existing Electrical Installations covered by Chapter 62 of the National Rules for Electrical Installations;
in a Domestic Property.
Minor electrical works including the replacement of an electrical accessory such as a light switch, the replacement or relocation of light fitting where the existing circuit is retained, the provision of an additional socket to an existing radial circuit, or electrical works which do not require the issuance of a completion certificate under Section 9D of the Act.

 

[Midwest]

^^^Isn't that legislation for Ireland?

 

[Deleted member 26818]

^^^Isn't that legislation for Ireland?

Eire.

 

[Midwest]

Eire.

You mean Éire

 

[45140]

Yes, I was just remarking that it is a shame we do not have something similar in the UK.

Saw a bodge up yesterday.

Lady wanted an inspection doing for the Housing Association use. Her husband (an HVAC Engineer) had replaced some light fittings and associated switches in the living room and she needed someone to confirm that the work was OK.

On arrival, the sockets were also off the wall, and the job had changed from lights to lights plus sockets. On inspection he had used a four core cable and used the third grey-sheathed conductor as the CPC and cut the CPC back. A few questions elicited the fact that he had broken the wall, installed a 45 amp junction box and from this he had run this new cct into the living room. Wall made good and newly wall-papered. And all of this from someone who allegedly designed HVAC control systems !

The response to various enquiries left me to believe that other work may have been done. Needless to say I told them to call the HA first thing on Monday and get them to come in a done a proper inspection as I suspected there was more to this. Incidentally the GF sockets showing 25 volts on two separate meters when disconnected.

The wife was literally trembling with anger.

A legal restriction on non-registered person working on electrical installations would be something we really should push for.

 

[Midwest]

Éire, I mean Errgh?

 

[Octopus]

For the benefit of some of the contributors to this thread

There is nothing "legal" or "illegal" about BS 7671 except reproduction of the regs without the permission of the IET

We sparks have no authority to leave existing circuits disconnected from an installation.

We have no obligation to force a customer to make improvements, we do have an obligation to confirm non compliance and observations on the certificate we issue.

For scheme members I suggest you seek written guidance from them tomorrow.

 

[sparksburnout]

Yes, I was just remarking that it is a shame we do not have something similar in the UK.

Saw a bodge up yesterday.

Lady wanted an inspection doing for the Housing Association use. Her husband (an HVAC Engineer) had replaced some light fittings and associated switches in the living room and she needed someone to confirm that the work was OK.

On arrival, the sockets were also off the wall, and the job had changed from lights to lights plus sockets. On inspection he had used a four core cable and used the third grey-sheathed conductor as the CPC and cut the CPC back. A few questions elicited the fact that he had broken the wall, installed a 45 amp junction box and from this he had run this new cct into the living room. Wall made good and newly wall-papered. And all of this from someone who allegedly designed HVAC control systems !

The response to various enquiries left me to believe that other work may have been done. Needless to say I told them to call the HA first thing on Monday and get them to come in a done a proper inspection as I suspected there was more to this. Incidentally the GF sockets showing 25 volts on two separate meters when disconnected.

The wife was literally trembling with anger.

A legal restriction on non-registered person working on electrical installations would be something we really should push for.

Yeah cos all the registered ones are totally safe and never do anything like this eh?

 

[Bait Account]

Ok Doc so you'd reconnect and leave exposed live parts energised. Good on ya bud.

 

[sparksburnout]

For the benefit of some of the contributors to this thread

There is nothing "legal" or "illegal" about BS 7671 except reproduction of the regs without the permission of the IET

We sparks have no authority to leave existing circuits disconnected from an installation.

We have no obligation to force a customer to make improvements, we do have an obligation to confirm non compliance and observations on the certificate we issue.

For scheme members I suggest you seek written guidance from them tomorrow.

This idea of walking off and "cutting out" a circuit that has probably been in service for 30 years is quite ridiculous, just because a CU has been replaced. I really do wonder what world some folks on here live in, to be honest. If they worked for themselves they would starve to death.

 

[Shoei]

Interesting that this is so controversial, personal view is that the guidance @snowhead linked in the 4th post hit's the nail. To paraphrase..

'If the customer doesn't cooperate and you confirm by testing that the circuit isn't outright lethal then you can give advice and move on, if it is outright lethal you can't leave it energized.'

I can't see much wrong with that. The guidance isn't law in the same way the Highway Code isn't law, ignore it if you like, but if you do there may be consequences.

 

[magnoliafan89]

Ok Doc so you'd reconnect and leave exposed live parts energised. Good on ya bud.

See this is a good point. You go to a property and theres t and e clipped down a wall and there is bare copper showing...client doesnt want any work done to such cable....do you just walk away??

 

[Octopus]

See this is a good point. You go to a property and theres t and e clipped down a wall and there is bare copper showing...client doesnt want any work done to such cable....do you just walk away??

A VERY different topic that this thread is about....

 

[peterhyper]

See this is a good point. You go to a property and theres t and e clipped down a wall and there is bare copper showing...client doesnt want any work done to such cable....do you just walk away??

What would you do in that situation?