Non-Harmonized cable in Enclosure

[dellboy13]

Hi All

I am currently designing a complete home automation system based around CBUS dimmers and relays. I have now built the enclosures with the dimmers and relays in so I can start programming / testing them. I have going to get a full spark to install the actual cables and connect the lights.
All the CBUS units need breakers feeding them and fuses on their outputs, which I have wired using red and black 1.5mm cables to DIN rail terminators & MCB in the cabinet which are obviously not Harmonized. Is this OK, the spark (when I find one) will do everything external with Harmonized cable!

 

[Knobhead]

Anybody disagree with the lock idea? I personally think a lock is more secure that the 4 bolts that hold the front on but I know what governing bodies are like!!!

A lock is secure until it’s unlocked. It does and will happen.

Find a new type of fuse holder that doesn’t allow access to live terminals or use miniature MCB’s. Schneider make suitable DIN rail mountable units.

I wouldn’t worry about internal cable colours, you’ve got bigger problems.

I’ve had 20mm 110V fuses explode in those holders, they’ve got a nice vent in the front for some of the shrapnel to exit from, leaving the fuse caps in the holder. They aren’t rated for fault making/load breaking. They haven’t got a lot going for them.

 

[davesparks]

Now now Tony, I'm sure it will always be locked...............With the key left in the door so it doesn't get lost!

 

[Marvo]

Fair enough, as I said I don't know enough about the rules. But do know that any custom made distribution or control unit we buy in comes CE marked with a unique serial number.

I was about to say similar to Marvo^^

Dave sparks also alluded to this too, I would be more concerned fitting a panel that was not type tested/approved.

I can't say with any authority the UK requirements, we work under ISO standards mostly but I'd doubt there'd be type testing CE requirements applicable mainly because I've never seen discussions about this in numerous other threads where panel building has been discussed.

I'm not sure if the fuses are correctly rated, panel protection is coordinated and cascaded. He did say they were 1A outputs so they're probably PWM dimmer outputs.

 

[spark 68]

I can't say with any authority the UK requirements, we work under ISO standards mostly but I'd doubt there'd be type testing CE requirements applicable mainly because I've never seen discussions about this in numerous other threads where panel building has been discussed.

More about conforming to the low voltage directive than anything else, and certain tests being carried out, hi-pot etc. the CE marking can be self certed, and is no guarantee that the design is approved.

 

[PEG]

Hi dude, I think you will have to do a bit of searching,to find a domestic spark,who also has CanBus experience.

It is technology which has found a home firstly,in the automotive/plant sectors (cheers,Bosch...) and the fault finding on these systems requires a different approach/equipment.

Whenever i try to imagine a node defining arbitration...my mind goes to old episodes of the "Clangers" :conehead:

There is a lot to be said for cables getting warm,pulling in contactors...

 

[davesparks]

Hi dude, I think you will have to do a bit of searching,to find a domestic spark,who also has CanBus experience.

It is technology which has found a home firstly,in the automotive/plant sectors (cheers,Bosch...) and the fault finding on these systems requires a different approach/equipment.

Whenever i try to imagine a node defining arbitration...my mind goes to old episodes of the "Clangers" :conehead:

There is a lot to be said for cables getting warm,pulling in contactors...

CanBus and Cbus are different things (as far as I know), just to add to the fun. CanBus is the magic that stops rangerovers from working properly and Cbus is a home automation protocol.
CanBus is also used for the 'chillinet' control system of Zero88's chilli dimmers (theatrical dimmers)

 

[Charlie_]

Is this the first job off this type you have undertaken?
I ask as you don't seem to have any contacts and I also feel you are very premature in building the panels at such an early stage..
Why did you go for a cbus system rather than KNX?
C-Bus is easier to wire but I still prefer KNX sytstems, primarily because it's an open system and you're not tied to one manufacturer, being Clipsal.
I'm sure you should soon find a suitable installer, you need to make sure you have good, clear specification,wiring plan, etc.
Perhaps you need to alter your approach to electricians, what you need doing is very basic but you seem to be making it out to be something else, which I feel is probably scaring them off..
I am currently living in the Isle of Man, just at the final stages of completing a very large residential KNX/DALI/1-10 SYSTEM, using mainly Gira devices and many different makes of drivers,etc.
Despite living in the Isle of Man this doesn't stop me from traveling to other parts of the Empire..

 

[Marvo]

C-BUS is also an open architecture protocol.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

I was under the impression, that the CE marking was only applicable if the product was for sale?

 

[Charlie_]

C-BUS is also an open architecture protocol.

Yes it is but that's not what I was referring to..
What I was trying to imply by 'open system' was that C-Bus is exclusive to Clipsal, unlike KNX which is an open protocol..
Sorry if my terminology is misleading

 

[Charlie_]

Thanks Charlie, I spoke to the NICEIC this morning and their technical adviser said that it was OK but I have to sleeve each of the cable with Blue or Brown sleeve to indicate use, if I had to do that I might as well rebuild the setup, it would only by 4 or 5 hours work but a pain in the arse to do.
All cables have been individually numbered, what do you think of the install below, should I re-do it or not bother. Fancy a trip down to North Essex to commission it?

You should definitely redo the whole thing..
The layout is completely wrong.
Do away with the fuses on the outgoing circuits from the dimmers.
Each output is rated at 1 amp this does not mean you need a 1amp fuse.
You need to think about how all the outgoing circuits are going to be dressed in and terminated.
What you need are the WAGO 2002-2201 double deck terminations.
This will allow the outgoing live and neutrals to be terminated on top of one another.
Get this right now you will avoid a disaster in a few months time
If I can manage to upload them I will post some photos of the panels I've done here.

 

[dellboy13]

Hi Charlie_
The CBUS states that each output needs to be protected by either a MCB or fuse for the protection of the unit. The integrator that I meet in London said he uses and I should use

but I decided against these has I thought it would mean the T&E coming in would be very dense along the bottom of the unit. When I spoke to the integrator about this he then advised me then to go for 3 separate terminators which will spread out the incoming cables.

The incoming circuit were going to be feed in from the bottom, the cables for the top row would go behind the lower row (the din rails have just under 2 1/2" of clear space behind). The incoming feeds were going to be taken down 4" trunking to the left hand side and long the bottom in the same trunking.

PS, If I want to upload photos for a forum I normally load them onto Photo and image hosting, free photo galleries, photo editing and the site give you URLs to copy and paste for forums.

 

[Charlie_]

The information you have been given is incorrect.
You only need to protect the incoming side of the dimmers.
The way I usually do this is an MCB or RCBO supplying the dimmer which is then linked to the input of each channel or you could also take a seperate supply to each channel input from its own MCB/RCBO..
Each channel of the dimmer unit incorporates short circuit cut- out protection against installation wiring faults, lamp failure, and excessive loading. If a cut-out condition occurs, the channel is automatically reset if the fault/overload is cleared within a few seconds — otherwise the channel is latched off, and a reset occurs once a channel is toggled OFF and ON.

On the panels I have wired all the dimmers, relays, etc are located at the bottom with the outgoing slices all located towards the top which allows all outgoing circuitry to be nearly dressed in from the top..

Will try and have a go at the photo upload to give you some examples

 

[Charlie_]

 

[davesparks]

The information you have been given is incorrect.
You only need to protect the incoming side of the dimmers.
The way I usually do this is an MCB or RCBO supplying the dimmer which is then linked to the input of each channel or you could also take a seperate supply to each channel input from its own MCB/RCBO..
Each channel of the dimmer unit incorporates short circuit cut- out protection against installation wiring faults, lamp failure, and excessive loading. If a cut-out condition occurs, the channel is automatically reset if the fault/overload is cleared within a few seconds — otherwise the channel is latched off, and a reset occurs once a channel is toggled OFF and ON.

On the panels I have wired all the dimmers, relays, etc are located at the bottom with the outgoing slices all located towards the top which allows all outgoing circuitry to be nearly dressed in from the top..

Will try and have a go at the photo upload to give you some examples

On all of the multiple channel dimmers I have installed each channel has it's own MCB covering that output, the incoming is protected at the DB or switchfuse feeding it.

On the dimmers I normally install all of the output terminals are in a row running up the centre of the unit with the dimmer modules spread throughout the whole enclosure.

My point: just because you have only installed dimmers with one protection arrangement or terminal layout it does not mean that every dimmer must be made the same!

 

[Charlie_]

On all of the multiple channel dimmers I have installed each channel has it's own MCB covering that output, the incoming is protected at the DB or switchfuse feeding it.

Why?? What make of dimmer unit?

On the dimmers I normally install all of the output terminals are in a row running up the centre of the unit with the dimmer modules spread throughout the whole enclosure.

Sounds messy. Where do you locate your neutral and earths?

My point: just because you have only installed dimmers with one protection arrangement or terminal layout it does not mean that every dimmer must be made the same!

No need to shout!
I'm not saying they must be made the same.
i am just explaining a better way of doing things and highlighting what is not necessary.
I have installed many C-Bus systems as well as KNX systems so I am fully aware of the different types.

 

[dellboy13]

I'm now confused, this is take out of the installation training manual from Clipsal

4.1.2 Output side of C-Bus output unit
To protect the C-Bus dimmer unit and meet the safety requirements of IEC60669-2-1, a MCB should be installed in each output channel (as in Figure 3 & Figure 4).

If I do not install the units as per Clipsal documentation, this would not invalidate the warranty? - A question not a statement!

I obviously understand that the fuse would not protect against short circuit but it would protect from overload!

 

[spark 68]

No need to shout!
I'm not saying they must be made the same.
i am just explaining a better way of doing things and highlighting what is not necessary.
I have installed many C-Bus systems as well as KNX systems so I am fully aware of the different types.

I didn't think Dave was Shouting Charlie, he is making a valid point though, you cannot really make a sweeping statement that the OP is doing it wrong, the manufacturer has told the OP what they want, whilst he does not have to follow their recommendation it may affect any warranty or cause other problems down the line if he does not take their advice into consideration.

I would be more interested to see if the manufacturer had drawn up any design guides for the panels and/or offered any type testing data, and what, if any, mandatory testing needs to be done on the panels.
Does the manufacturer offer any pre-built panels presumably already certified and type tested ?

 

[dellboy13]

I have contacted Clipsal and had a very brief chat, yes there should be overload protection on the outputs as per their install manual. The reasoning being that an electrician could install and sign off a build with say 40w bulbs and 3 months down the line the owner would change all the the bulbs for 100w bulbs and knacker the dimmer unit, leaving the owner to foot the bill.
They also said that if a MCB was used an electrician would have the ability to isolate a single output from a dimmer unit and work on it without having to knock off all 8 channels of a dimmer unit or 12 channels of a relay unit to work one one single fitting.

 

[Charlie_]

Yes I appreciate what you are saying and I'm aware of Clipsal UK requirements but they are not necessary as the units have integral overload protection and also protection is afforded by the supply MCB's.
Ive serviced Clipsal equipment for many years, in the UK and AUS..
The majority of installers do not fit output fuses as they know this is pointless.
I have yet to come across a blown unit due to overload..
The dimmers themselves should be IEC compliant we don't need to make them compliant by other means.

If somebody puts larger lamps in then they can also easily install larger fuses.
It is then down to the integral protection of the dimmer to kick in.

 

[DPG]

I know nothing about these systems, but surely if the manf. stipulates to use MCBs on the outputs then it should be done? Daz