Non-Harmonized cable in Enclosure

[dellboy13]

Thank you spark 68

 

[dellboy13]

Out of interest, has anybody on here had any experience with CBUS home automation? Any tips?

 

[davesparks]

Sorry I missed the posting from Marvo before posting my last one.

Anybody disagree with the lock idea? I personally think a lock is more secure that the 4 bolts that hold the front on but I know what governing bodies are like!!!

All the gear is either UK Hager or Schneider Electric and purchased from UK wholesalers, so fully UK CE approved. The cabinets are IP40 and installed in a small plant rooms

The individual components being CE marked doesn't automatically make the completed unit CE marked!

 

[dellboy13]

God this is getting complicated!

The problem is that I have spoken to 3 local residential sparks, I spent over an hour trying to explain to the guy how a CBUS system work (control via a bus system, sending control signals to central distribution), he just did not get it, so he was off the list. The second said it was too complicated for him, he basically works on 17th edition 14 way boards and nothing else and the 3rd guy was an Aussie who was a nice chap but I did not believe he was a qualified spark and the pictures of his work was nothing to be proud of. Hopefully Welchyboy1 will still be up for a chat in 5 months time!

The problem is the system is residential but not a standard single board setup, more commercial but the commercial sparks would not touch a residential install (saying that I only tried one local company)

 

[Marvo]

The individual components being CE marked doesn't automatically make the completed unit CE marked!

We'd only expect CE certification of the complete assembly if it was sold as a mass produced pre-assembled control panel. If we built a panel specifically for a job such as lighting control for a particular premises it would normally require type test certification.

 

[davesparks]

It's not too different from a stage lighting installation, a box full of dimmers controlled from a remote location via some form of data signal.

In response to something you mentioned above, why do you want the electrician to run 1.5 T&E for the outgoings?

 

[davesparks]

We'd only expect CE certification of the complete assembly if it was sold as a mass produced pre-assembled control panel. If we built a panel specifically for a job such as lighting control for a particular premises it would normally require type test certification.

Fair enough, as I said I don't know enough about the rules. But do know that any custom made distribution or control unit we buy in comes CE marked with a unique serial number.

 

[spark 68]

I was about to say similar to Marvo^^

Dave sparks also alluded to this too, I would be more concerned fitting a panel that was not type tested/approved.

 

[Marvo]

.....The problem is that I have spoken to 3 local residential sparks

You're speaking to the wrong people. I'm not saying there aren't any residential sparks that can't install and commission such a control panel but they'll certainly be few and far between. I'm not sure if Welchyboy has CBUS experience though, if he doesn't fancy the work I'd speak to someone like Rob or Robotstar5 if I were you although I'm not sure if they're anywhere near you.

 

[davesparks]

God this is getting complicated!

The problem is that I have spoken to 3 local residential sparks, I spent over an hour trying to explain to the guy how a CBUS system work (control via a bus system, sending control signals to central distribution), he just did not get it, so he was off the list. The second said it was too complicated for him, he basically works on 17th edition 14 way boards and nothing else and the 3rd guy was an Aussie who was a nice chap but I did not believe he was a qualified spark and the pictures of his work was nothing to be proud of. Hopefully Welchyboy1 will still be up for a chat in 5 months time!

The problem is the system is residential but not a standard single board setup, more commercial but the commercial sparks would not touch a residential install (saying that I only tried one local company)

I'll do it, if the price is right and the equipment is compliant.

 

[Knobhead]

Anybody disagree with the lock idea? I personally think a lock is more secure that the 4 bolts that hold the front on but I know what governing bodies are like!!!

A lock is secure until it’s unlocked. It does and will happen.

Find a new type of fuse holder that doesn’t allow access to live terminals or use miniature MCB’s. Schneider make suitable DIN rail mountable units.

I wouldn’t worry about internal cable colours, you’ve got bigger problems.

I’ve had 20mm 110V fuses explode in those holders, they’ve got a nice vent in the front for some of the shrapnel to exit from, leaving the fuse caps in the holder. They aren’t rated for fault making/load breaking. They haven’t got a lot going for them.

 

[davesparks]

Now now Tony, I'm sure it will always be locked...............With the key left in the door so it doesn't get lost!

 

[Marvo]

Fair enough, as I said I don't know enough about the rules. But do know that any custom made distribution or control unit we buy in comes CE marked with a unique serial number.

I was about to say similar to Marvo^^

Dave sparks also alluded to this too, I would be more concerned fitting a panel that was not type tested/approved.

I can't say with any authority the UK requirements, we work under ISO standards mostly but I'd doubt there'd be type testing CE requirements applicable mainly because I've never seen discussions about this in numerous other threads where panel building has been discussed.

I'm not sure if the fuses are correctly rated, panel protection is coordinated and cascaded. He did say they were 1A outputs so they're probably PWM dimmer outputs.

 

[spark 68]

I can't say with any authority the UK requirements, we work under ISO standards mostly but I'd doubt there'd be type testing CE requirements applicable mainly because I've never seen discussions about this in numerous other threads where panel building has been discussed.

More about conforming to the low voltage directive than anything else, and certain tests being carried out, hi-pot etc. the CE marking can be self certed, and is no guarantee that the design is approved.

 

[PEG]

Hi dude, I think you will have to do a bit of searching,to find a domestic spark,who also has CanBus experience.

It is technology which has found a home firstly,in the automotive/plant sectors (cheers,Bosch...) and the fault finding on these systems requires a different approach/equipment.

Whenever i try to imagine a node defining arbitration...my mind goes to old episodes of the "Clangers" :conehead:

There is a lot to be said for cables getting warm,pulling in contactors...

 

[davesparks]

Hi dude, I think you will have to do a bit of searching,to find a domestic spark,who also has CanBus experience.

It is technology which has found a home firstly,in the automotive/plant sectors (cheers,Bosch...) and the fault finding on these systems requires a different approach/equipment.

Whenever i try to imagine a node defining arbitration...my mind goes to old episodes of the "Clangers" :conehead:

There is a lot to be said for cables getting warm,pulling in contactors...

CanBus and Cbus are different things (as far as I know), just to add to the fun. CanBus is the magic that stops rangerovers from working properly and Cbus is a home automation protocol.
CanBus is also used for the 'chillinet' control system of Zero88's chilli dimmers (theatrical dimmers)

 

[Charlie_]

Is this the first job off this type you have undertaken?
I ask as you don't seem to have any contacts and I also feel you are very premature in building the panels at such an early stage..
Why did you go for a cbus system rather than KNX?
C-Bus is easier to wire but I still prefer KNX sytstems, primarily because it's an open system and you're not tied to one manufacturer, being Clipsal.
I'm sure you should soon find a suitable installer, you need to make sure you have good, clear specification,wiring plan, etc.
Perhaps you need to alter your approach to electricians, what you need doing is very basic but you seem to be making it out to be something else, which I feel is probably scaring them off..
I am currently living in the Isle of Man, just at the final stages of completing a very large residential KNX/DALI/1-10 SYSTEM, using mainly Gira devices and many different makes of drivers,etc.
Despite living in the Isle of Man this doesn't stop me from traveling to other parts of the Empire..

 

[Marvo]

C-BUS is also an open architecture protocol.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

I was under the impression, that the CE marking was only applicable if the product was for sale?

 

[Charlie_]

C-BUS is also an open architecture protocol.

Yes it is but that's not what I was referring to..
What I was trying to imply by 'open system' was that C-Bus is exclusive to Clipsal, unlike KNX which is an open protocol..
Sorry if my terminology is misleading