Not sure what our options are. Advice required for homeowner please.

[JamesBrownLive]

All 631.1 requires you to do is to issue an EIC, detail the extent of the work covered by the Certificate and include a record of the inspection and the results of testing.
It doesn't say anything about inspecting and testin existing circuits.

I thought that with a board change, all circuits are considered as having been altered, and would then need to be tested?

Edit: I'm not trying to argue, just get a better understanding. I'll never learn unless people tell me I'm wrong.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

Sorry Simon, but is that the basis of your argumant?
I'm wrong, but you can't quote a Regulation as you haven't got a copy of BS7671 to hand, some guff about wall switches in bathrooms, and some tradesmen have been fined?

 

[Deleted member 26818]

The only requirement for any pre-testing, is to verify that the rating of the existing equipment is adequate, and that the earthing and bonding arrangements are adequate for whatever protective measure is intended to be applied for the safety of the alteration or addition
How do you do this without testing the installation

Inspection.

 

[simonspark]

James Brown has it! I agree. Spinlondon, no idea what you are going on about now!! Im smiling, but dont know how to get those little smiley things up without seeming a bit nasty!

 

[Deleted member 26818]

I thought that with a board change, all circuits are considered as having been altered, and would then need to be tested?

Edit: I'm not trying to argue, just get a better understanding. I'll never learn unless people tell me I'm wrong.

In what way would the circuits have been altered?

 

[simonspark]

sorry mate, but to inspect the earth at a light switch, say, do you take it off the wall, see the little green and yellow devil and presume its ok?

 

[simonspark]

Its been altered by changing the protected device. Did you know that technically, we should issue a completion cert if we change a circuit breaker or fuse?

 

[simonspark]

Meant protective, not protected. Whoops

 

[JamesBrownLive]

In what way would the circuits have been altered?

I'd have to agree with Simon on this one, I believe that when you change a circuit's protective device, that is considered an alteration.

However, this thread seems to have gone off at a tangent....

What started out as a discussion about some of the test results on the attached paperwork has now taken a rather ugly turn.

I do not profess to know it all, or indeed very much for that matter, as I am still in training. All I try and do is ask pertinent questions when I feel I come across a gap in my knowledge, and believe me there are plenty of them.
As I said previously, I have no problem in being told I am wrong.

My main question was one about RCD disconnection times, and apart from Simon, nobody has commented on it. I've said all I am going to re: this thread, if someone wants to comment on my original comment, then fine. Other than that it's off to bed for me

 

[Deleted member 26818]

Simon, I do wish you would stop quoting non-existant Regulations.
Perhaps it would be better for you to wait until you have a copy of BS7671 to hand.
Regulation 131.8:"No addition or alteration, temporary or permanent, shall be made to an existing installation, unless it has been ascertained that the rating and the conditionof any existing equipment, including that of the distributor, will be adequate for the altered circumstances. Furthermore, the earthing & bonding arrangements, if necessary for the protective measure applied for the safety of the addition or alteration, shall be adequate."
Could you please explain how testing would prove that the equipment of an existing installation is not rated sufficiently, or in an adequate condition to have the board changed?

 

[eiluj68]

I've read through all the recent posts but can't pretend to understand the technical details. Are you saying that the certificate is flagging up some major problems with the installation? Is it unsafe?

Also, if we opt for a PIR with a registered and competent electrician (probably the same one that works on the bathroom electrics) what are the likely outcomes?

My (layman's) understanding is that a PIR is like a car MOT in that the result is either a pass or a fail. If it's a fail I expect that whatever problems have been flagged up have to be fixed before another PIR is carried out. Is that correct? Do we have to pay for each repeat PIR?

 

[eiluj68]

I've read through all the recent posts but can't pretend to understand the technical details. Are you saying that the certificate is flagging up some major problems with the installation? Is it unsafe?

Also, if we opt for a PIR with a registered and competent electrician (probably the same one that works on the bathroom electrics) what are the likely outcomes?

My (layman's) understanding is that a PIR is like a car MOT in that the result is either a pass or a fail. If it's a fail I expect that whatever problems have been flagged up have to be fixed before another PIR is carried out. Is that correct? Do we have to pay for each repeat PIR?

Hi,
Can anyone help with my queries above please? All the technical comments about the certificate I posted are beyond my knowledge. Can anyone give me a summary in layman's terms please?
Many thanks

 

[Knobhead]

Get whoever does the PIR to do the remedial work. It’s a bit like an MOT if the garage does the work they don’t charge for the second test.

 

[Rappid]

eiluj68

My personal opinion is that although the electrician may have done a good job, the certificate is a load of rubbish.
The first page under Design, Construction, Inspection and Testing, he filled out BS7671,2008 ammended to 2010.
Every electrician knows there was no ammendment in 2010, the first ammendment to BS7671 2008 comes out Jan 2012 and lots of errors from there on.
As Tony says, get a PIR done.
Whereabouts are you? there are a lot of great electricians on this site, I'm sure someone would be happy to come out and have a look.

 

[eiluj68]

eiluj68
Whereabouts are you? there are a lot of great electricians on this site, I'm sure someone would be happy to come out and have a look.

We're in South East London.

This is getting weird now !
Just spoke with the electrician again and he's asked me to photocopy the certificate for him. He asked to collect it tomorrow. He then says he'll take it to the NICEIC and get them to reissue the certificate with their credentials on it. It will take 4-6 weeks for the new certificate to reach us. He also said he doesn't bother with the NIC forms usually because it costs him money each time he lodges one with them, but if building control want a copy he'll get our certificate reissued.

I didn't want him back at the house so I've agreed to scan the certificate and email it to him. I'll ask him for his NICEIC registration number at the same time. I imagine he's playing for time?

 

[Octopus]

As a homeowner I guess this 77+ answer thread is probably getting too complex for you.

Bottom line, did the electrician register the job with NICEIC or not? Sounds rather odd to me!

 

[eiluj68]

As a homeowner I guess this 77+ answer thread is probably getting too complex for you.

Bottom line, did the electrician register the job with NICEIC or not? Sounds rather odd to me!

I don't see how he can have. NICEIC confirmed that they had noone registered with his name at either of the two addresses I have for him.

How long does it take for an electrician to register and obtain a registration number from NICEIC ? Could it be 4-6 weeks ?

 

[Rappid]

He cant just get a registration number from the NICEIC. Before he joins the NIC, he has to have his work assessed by the NIC before he becomes a member.
He also needs to make sure he has the right documents as well as public liability insurance in place before his assessment.

 

[Rappid]

I think he did...

Edit : See #36

 

[eiluj68]

I can't be bothered right now to read back through 7 pages of posts, but from memory I don't think the guy ever claimed to be registered with NICEIC, did he?

Quick recap...

Before the job started the electrician understood that we needed the work to be certified. We didn't specify what type of certificate (due to our lack of knowledge) and he didn't ask. Registration to various organisations was not discussed. The job was completed to our satisfaction although we weren't impressed with his reliability (not turning up when expected).

Fast forward 8 months.
We ask a different electrician to quote for electrical work as part of a bathroom refurbishment. This electrician queries the certificate we were issued with and tells us that there should be a note of the registration body and the electrician's registration number on the certificate. We should also have received a certificate from building control following their receipt of their copy of the certificate from the electrician. We don't have this.

We contact the original electrician. He claims that building control do not need to be involved and that his certificate is sufficient. He claims to have sent a copy of the certificate he issued to NICEIC and that they would have forwarded a copy to the local building control if it were required.

A conversation with local building control confirms that the work is notifiable work under Part P regulations and that the certificate issued does not prove compliance. They say that we should go back to the electrican and request the correct BS-7671 certificate. They suggest that I contact NICEIC to check the electrician is registered as he implied during the telephone conversation earlier in the day.

We receive an email back from NICEIC advising that the electrician is not registered with them at either or the two addresses we provided them with. One was the address on the certificate and the other was the address he was living at with his partner.

I speak with the electrician again today, telling him what building control have said. I ask him for the BS-7671 certificate and for a copy to go to building control. At this stage I was expecting him to come clean and retract his previous claim to be registered with NICEIC but instead, he has asked for a copy of the original certificate which he says he will take to NICEIC. He will ask them to reissue the certificate with their credentials. It will take 4-6 weeks before this replacement certificate reaches us.

This is the point we're now at. I have agreed to scan and email the certificate to him (to avoid him coming to the house tomorrow) but this seems to be a waste of time if he isn't registered. I guess I should probably just cut to the chase now and ask him for his registration number.