Not sure what our options are. Advice required for homeowner please.

[simonspark]

You are wrong. If there are no requirements to test the final circuits following a board change, then it follows that you can reconnect, lets say, old virs with no earth. Or even lighting circuits wired in twin pvc with no earths. It is down to you as the electrician to highlight these problems to the customer before commencing the works. If you install rcd protection as you probably need to in most circumstances, and the new rcd then trips when the circuit is energized, do you say "You got a problem there mate" take the money and go home?

 

[Deleted member 26818]

If I'm wrong, then you will be able to quote the Regulation that shows such.

 

[Des 56]

You are wrong. ?

I think it may be time to get behind the bunker with heads down

 

[simonspark]

I think its about workmanship and suitability of equipment in service. Havent got regs book to hand, so cant quote. Sorry

 

[simonspark]

There is no direct reference to it. However, there are many odd little nuances in the regs. It says you can have a wall mounted light switch in a bathroom. Read on a bit more and it says you can only install fixtures that are suitable to the environment. Which means you cant have a wall mounted switch in aforementioned bathroom

 

[JamesBrownLive]

If I'm wrong, then you will be able to quote the Regulation that shows such.

631.1

Maybe :smilewinkgrin:

Edit: Hold on, are we talking about before the work is undertaken?

 

[simonspark]

Plus!!!!!!!! The few people who have been fined have been the tradesmen that have installed the electrical equipment. All that happens to the householder is that when they sell up, a sharp-eyed solicitor will see some works have been carried out and that the purchaser will get a few thousand quid knocked off the price

 

[Deleted member 26818]

If you inspected and tested the installation before the work was conducted, it would be a PIR.
The only requirement for any pre-testing, is to verify that the rating of the existing equipment is adequate, and that the earthing and bonding arrangements are adequate for whatever protective measure is intended to be applied for the safety of the alteration or addition.
All 631.1 requires you to do is to issue an EIC, detail the extent of the work covered by the Certificate and include a record of the inspection and the results of testing.
It doesn't say anything about inspecting and testing existing circuits.

 

[simonspark]

So you would happily energize an unsafe circuit?

 

[simonspark]

The only requirement for any pre-testing, is to verify that the rating of the existing equipment is adequate, and that the earthing and bonding arrangements are adequate for whatever protective measure is intended to be applied for the safety of the alteration or addition
How do you do this without testing the installation

 

[JamesBrownLive]

All 631.1 requires you to do is to issue an EIC, detail the extent of the work covered by the Certificate and include a record of the inspection and the results of testing.
It doesn't say anything about inspecting and testin existing circuits.

I thought that with a board change, all circuits are considered as having been altered, and would then need to be tested?

Edit: I'm not trying to argue, just get a better understanding. I'll never learn unless people tell me I'm wrong.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

Sorry Simon, but is that the basis of your argumant?
I'm wrong, but you can't quote a Regulation as you haven't got a copy of BS7671 to hand, some guff about wall switches in bathrooms, and some tradesmen have been fined?

 

[Deleted member 26818]

The only requirement for any pre-testing, is to verify that the rating of the existing equipment is adequate, and that the earthing and bonding arrangements are adequate for whatever protective measure is intended to be applied for the safety of the alteration or addition
How do you do this without testing the installation

Inspection.

 

[simonspark]

James Brown has it! I agree. Spinlondon, no idea what you are going on about now!! Im smiling, but dont know how to get those little smiley things up without seeming a bit nasty!

 

[Deleted member 26818]

I thought that with a board change, all circuits are considered as having been altered, and would then need to be tested?

Edit: I'm not trying to argue, just get a better understanding. I'll never learn unless people tell me I'm wrong.

In what way would the circuits have been altered?

 

[simonspark]

sorry mate, but to inspect the earth at a light switch, say, do you take it off the wall, see the little green and yellow devil and presume its ok?

 

[simonspark]

Its been altered by changing the protected device. Did you know that technically, we should issue a completion cert if we change a circuit breaker or fuse?

 

[simonspark]

Meant protective, not protected. Whoops

 

[JamesBrownLive]

In what way would the circuits have been altered?

I'd have to agree with Simon on this one, I believe that when you change a circuit's protective device, that is considered an alteration.

However, this thread seems to have gone off at a tangent....

What started out as a discussion about some of the test results on the attached paperwork has now taken a rather ugly turn.

I do not profess to know it all, or indeed very much for that matter, as I am still in training. All I try and do is ask pertinent questions when I feel I come across a gap in my knowledge, and believe me there are plenty of them.
As I said previously, I have no problem in being told I am wrong.

My main question was one about RCD disconnection times, and apart from Simon, nobody has commented on it. I've said all I am going to re: this thread, if someone wants to comment on my original comment, then fine. Other than that it's off to bed for me

 

[Deleted member 26818]

Simon, I do wish you would stop quoting non-existant Regulations.
Perhaps it would be better for you to wait until you have a copy of BS7671 to hand.
Regulation 131.8:"No addition or alteration, temporary or permanent, shall be made to an existing installation, unless it has been ascertained that the rating and the conditionof any existing equipment, including that of the distributor, will be adequate for the altered circumstances. Furthermore, the earthing & bonding arrangements, if necessary for the protective measure applied for the safety of the addition or alteration, shall be adequate."
Could you please explain how testing would prove that the equipment of an existing installation is not rated sufficiently, or in an adequate condition to have the board changed?

 

[eiluj68]

I've read through all the recent posts but can't pretend to understand the technical details. Are you saying that the certificate is flagging up some major problems with the installation? Is it unsafe?

Also, if we opt for a PIR with a registered and competent electrician (probably the same one that works on the bathroom electrics) what are the likely outcomes?

My (layman's) understanding is that a PIR is like a car MOT in that the result is either a pass or a fail. If it's a fail I expect that whatever problems have been flagged up have to be fixed before another PIR is carried out. Is that correct? Do we have to pay for each repeat PIR?

 

[eiluj68]

I've read through all the recent posts but can't pretend to understand the technical details. Are you saying that the certificate is flagging up some major problems with the installation? Is it unsafe?

Also, if we opt for a PIR with a registered and competent electrician (probably the same one that works on the bathroom electrics) what are the likely outcomes?

My (layman's) understanding is that a PIR is like a car MOT in that the result is either a pass or a fail. If it's a fail I expect that whatever problems have been flagged up have to be fixed before another PIR is carried out. Is that correct? Do we have to pay for each repeat PIR?

Hi,
Can anyone help with my queries above please? All the technical comments about the certificate I posted are beyond my knowledge. Can anyone give me a summary in layman's terms please?
Many thanks

 

[Knobhead]

Get whoever does the PIR to do the remedial work. It’s a bit like an MOT if the garage does the work they don’t charge for the second test.

 

[Rappid]

eiluj68

My personal opinion is that although the electrician may have done a good job, the certificate is a load of rubbish.
The first page under Design, Construction, Inspection and Testing, he filled out BS7671,2008 ammended to 2010.
Every electrician knows there was no ammendment in 2010, the first ammendment to BS7671 2008 comes out Jan 2012 and lots of errors from there on.
As Tony says, get a PIR done.
Whereabouts are you? there are a lot of great electricians on this site, I'm sure someone would be happy to come out and have a look.

 

[eiluj68]

eiluj68
Whereabouts are you? there are a lot of great electricians on this site, I'm sure someone would be happy to come out and have a look.

We're in South East London.

This is getting weird now !
Just spoke with the electrician again and he's asked me to photocopy the certificate for him. He asked to collect it tomorrow. He then says he'll take it to the NICEIC and get them to reissue the certificate with their credentials on it. It will take 4-6 weeks for the new certificate to reach us. He also said he doesn't bother with the NIC forms usually because it costs him money each time he lodges one with them, but if building control want a copy he'll get our certificate reissued.

I didn't want him back at the house so I've agreed to scan the certificate and email it to him. I'll ask him for his NICEIC registration number at the same time. I imagine he's playing for time?

 

[Octopus]

As a homeowner I guess this 77+ answer thread is probably getting too complex for you.

Bottom line, did the electrician register the job with NICEIC or not? Sounds rather odd to me!

 

[eiluj68]

As a homeowner I guess this 77+ answer thread is probably getting too complex for you.

Bottom line, did the electrician register the job with NICEIC or not? Sounds rather odd to me!

I don't see how he can have. NICEIC confirmed that they had noone registered with his name at either of the two addresses I have for him.

How long does it take for an electrician to register and obtain a registration number from NICEIC ? Could it be 4-6 weeks ?

 

[Rappid]

He cant just get a registration number from the NICEIC. Before he joins the NIC, he has to have his work assessed by the NIC before he becomes a member.
He also needs to make sure he has the right documents as well as public liability insurance in place before his assessment.

 

[Rappid]

I think he did...

Edit : See #36

 

[eiluj68]

I can't be bothered right now to read back through 7 pages of posts, but from memory I don't think the guy ever claimed to be registered with NICEIC, did he?

Quick recap...

Before the job started the electrician understood that we needed the work to be certified. We didn't specify what type of certificate (due to our lack of knowledge) and he didn't ask. Registration to various organisations was not discussed. The job was completed to our satisfaction although we weren't impressed with his reliability (not turning up when expected).

Fast forward 8 months.
We ask a different electrician to quote for electrical work as part of a bathroom refurbishment. This electrician queries the certificate we were issued with and tells us that there should be a note of the registration body and the electrician's registration number on the certificate. We should also have received a certificate from building control following their receipt of their copy of the certificate from the electrician. We don't have this.

We contact the original electrician. He claims that building control do not need to be involved and that his certificate is sufficient. He claims to have sent a copy of the certificate he issued to NICEIC and that they would have forwarded a copy to the local building control if it were required.

A conversation with local building control confirms that the work is notifiable work under Part P regulations and that the certificate issued does not prove compliance. They say that we should go back to the electrican and request the correct BS-7671 certificate. They suggest that I contact NICEIC to check the electrician is registered as he implied during the telephone conversation earlier in the day.

We receive an email back from NICEIC advising that the electrician is not registered with them at either or the two addresses we provided them with. One was the address on the certificate and the other was the address he was living at with his partner.

I speak with the electrician again today, telling him what building control have said. I ask him for the BS-7671 certificate and for a copy to go to building control. At this stage I was expecting him to come clean and retract his previous claim to be registered with NICEIC but instead, he has asked for a copy of the original certificate which he says he will take to NICEIC. He will ask them to reissue the certificate with their credentials. It will take 4-6 weeks before this replacement certificate reaches us.

This is the point we're now at. I have agreed to scan and email the certificate to him (to avoid him coming to the house tomorrow) but this seems to be a waste of time if he isn't registered. I guess I should probably just cut to the chase now and ask him for his registration number.

 

[SW1970]

Post #28. The certificates are green.

This is from the NICEIC website: </title> <meta name="description" content="" /> <meta name="keywords" content="" /> <meta name="author" content="Farquhar Design and Julian Samuel Web Development" /> <link rel="shortcut icon" href="/Content/Images/niceicfavicon.ico" type="image/x-ic

"Click the titles to download pdfs of green specimen NICEIC certificates, which are issued by non-approved electrical contractors."

I'm with a different scheme operator. What on earth is a "non-approved electrical contractor"?

What is the domestic customer to make of that? Can any old tradesman get hold of these green certificates and issue them? Has our OP here fallen foul of that?

 

[SW1970]

Not sure why link looks funny but it works ok.

 

[Rappid]

I guess I should probably just cut to the chase now and ask him for his registration number.

I would and see what he says. If he has a registration number, he has nothing to hide.

 

[Rappid]

Purple - Domestic installer
Red - Approved contractor
Green - Non NIC/EIC member

 

[telectrix]

forgive me if i've misse dseomething as i've been away 3 days and just glanced through the posts. not read all of them. 1 post suggested that the problem may arise on selling the house. in this case, a PIR might be the answer. as i've said, i've not read all the posts so forgive me if this has already been suggested.

 

[simonspark]

Eiluy68. He cannot take the certs to the NICEIC and 4-6 weeks later they issue you with 'real ones'. it doesn't work that way. However, somewhere in Approved document P (Yes. THE Part P). I think there is a way around this. Obviously (spinlondon, take note!) I havent got it with me, but somewhere in it theres a section telling you what to if you had an unregistered electrician who was qualified. Help me out someone. Have a leaf through Part P

 

[simonspark]

Oh gawd. Here we are again. Spinlondon I bear no malice and do not want to anger you. Please accept my apologies for stating that 'You are wrong'. I was wrong to do that. And I fully understand what you were saying. There is no specific regulation regarding testing following a cu change. I know that. But on the other hand there is no specific reg stating that inserting a live conductor into the left nostril of a customer is not permitted! (should be in some cases though)
What I was trying to say was just because its not specified, doesn't mean you shouldn't do it. Personally think it comes under the bit about good workmanship and competent person, or whatever it says. Near the front somewhere. (No , I havent got the regs with me again. Got the nice green one the other day as well. Jesus!) It is open to interpretation, I think. You look at it one way, I another. Can we be friends now? Nice bike. Simon

 

[eiluj68]

However, somewhere in Approved document P (Yes. THE Part P). I think there is a way around this. Obviously (spinlondon, take note!) I havent got it with me, but somewhere in it theres a section telling you what to if you had an unregistered electrician who was qualified. Help me out someone. Have a leaf through Part P

You're right simonspark

Section 1.21 advises that when a qualified electrician who is not registered with a Part P self-certification scheme undertakes notifiable work, local building control should be notified in advance except when it's an emergency and then as soon as possible afterwards. The electrician can then complete the work and issue an appropraite BS7671 certificate, a copy of which should be sent to building control. Building control will take the certificate into account before deciding whether or not the work is safe and complies. They may also ask for proof of the electrician's qualifications. If they're happy they'll issue a building regulation completion certificate.

They don't say what happens if they don't accept that the work is safe and complies...

 

[Rappid]

I wouldn't show them that certificate you've got!!

 

[SW1970]

Hence eiluj68 you should give him a chance to explain and rectify and if that doesn't work it's time for lawyers because if the work is not safe and doesn't comply there'll be costs to have it fixed. And in that case those costs will be above the small claims thresholds. If he was dishing out green certificates he's unlikely to be qualified, insured and experienced to do PIRs, so have that initial chat and think about lawyers after that. Any other advice folks to round this one up?

 

[eiluj68]

I wouldn't show them that certificate you've got!!

I know you guys were discussing technical details of the certificate between you, but noone ever explained what it meant in layman's terms. Are you saying that it shows that the work is unsafe and/or that it doesn't comply? If unsafe it's a big worry!

 

[Deleted member 9648]

Just read through all this thread....bloody hell!
Re-the testing of existing circuits on a cu change dispute.....if you are changing to a different protective device for an existing circuit you would have to ensure disconnection times are met by the new device,therefore at the very least a Zs test would be a requirement of bs7671.

 

[SW1970]

eiluj68, I don't think anyone will say it's safe or unsafe without carrying out the PIR. It's a sloppy report by someone that appears not to fully understand what they're doing. It's got some items of concern and the findings that are on the report suggest the installation doesn't meet the latest version of the regulations. You mentioned the kitchen and bathroom were left out of the rewire, those are 2 areas that have to be handled carefully so the question of safety cannot be answered without inspection and testing. He has a duty of care, as does every tradesperson that sells to the public, to look after you. I believe you've been let down in that the installer should have guided you on matters of notification and certification and hasn't done that. Don't panic, but get it looked at sooner rather than later.

 

[eiluj68]

Many thanks SW1970. That sounds like good advice.

It doesn't sound like there's any point in pursuing a completion certificate from building control based on the "certification" we currently hold.

On a positive note, perhaps this thread will be of benefit to anyone unfortunate enough to find themselves in a similar position in the future.

A final thank you to all who have provided constructive feedback on our situation

 

[Des 56]

Try not to panic about safety issues with the installation
Domestic electricians can often do a first class job of the actual installation,then be total numpties when filling out certificates
I wouldn't be surprised if a figure of maybe 70 % are incorrectly filled out
The form filling in our industry ranges from small mistakes to a complete ineptitude and sometimes (especially with large Pir testiing firms)complete fabrications and downright lies

I will repeat my earlier advise,whats done is done as far as the installation and part pants is concerned
It would be the best course of action for all your issues, that a Pir be carried out, and preferably by an electrician qualified,experienced and with perhaps City + Guilds 2391 Test and Inspection qualification.if he is in a scheme as well as suitable,all the better,but dont be fooled by scheme membership or installation competence,it means very little when it comes to test and inspection

The guy doing the Kitchen may be suitable for this role and the certificatiion he will issue and the notification he will carry out will hopefully clear all your percieved problems
Again,try not to worry perhaps needlesly,but be sure to engage an electrician who ticks all the boxes for that Pir,

 

[Dunc]

Christ on a bike this is getting complicated. The certificate that has been issued is a Electrical Installation Certificate (EIC) which is to BS7671. The fact that the certificate is green just means that it isn't the style of certificate that an electrician belonging to a self certification scheme (eg NICEIC, NAPIT, ELECSA etc) would normally issue. I know from being with the NIC that the Approved Contractor forms are red and the Domestic Installer forms are purple. Both the red and purple forms display the NIC logo whereas the green ones (despite being available to buy from the NIC shop) do not due to them being available for use by non registered members.

With regards to the details of the certificate that people have pointed out to be wrong i would say the following. There are discrepancies which may show that the contractor has a lack of knowledge when it comes to filling out the certs. This does not mean that his work is unsafe but we can't tell either way without seeing the installation and carrying out a full test and inspection. Filling out certificates can be a bit of a head ache for some contractors, infact i'd wager that everyone on this forum has made a mistake at some point or another through general misunderstanding or a lack of knowledge. Again this does not make them bad electricians it just means that they have a bit more reading to do.

Finally, my gut feeling is that you've caught this guy out and he is not a NIC registered electrician. At a guess, the reason he wants a copy of the certificate is so that he can get a mate who is NIC Approved or a Domestic Installer to fill out a new cert on the correct paper and register it for Part P. This is not allowed by the NIC or any other scheme provider as the work has to be signed off by the person who installed it. Just because this practice isn't allowed doesn't mean it doesn't happen! I would still go with my previous suggestion and get the LABC to test and sign off the work. That way you get your property tested by a competent electrician and the correct certificates with a Part P notification certificate too. I would still send a letter to the electrician detailing your grievances and requesting compensation to cover the costs for the LABC to certify the work. He may pay up, he may not, at that point you can either chalk it up to experience or pursue him further via the courts.