Outdoor lighting - no waterproof junction boxes

[Richard Daniels]

Hi, could someone please let me know whether the attached pictures is safe for step lighting?

From what I can see, the contractor has cut away the insulation from the cabling that was suplied by the manufacturer and used standard junction boxes wrapped with electrical tape.

This doesn't feel sufficient to me so just wanted some more advice.

Thanks in advance

 

[Octopus]

Poor, very poor workmanship.

That said, if there is no access apart from the hole we see, then sometimes what you want to do isn't practicable

 

[Richard Daniels]

Poor, very poor workmanship.

That said, if there is no access apart from the hole we see, then sometimes what you want to do isn't practicable

Thanks for the response. Contractor was involved with the laying of cable when the steps were built so the infrastructure should have been as requested.

What is likely yo go wrong with this setup? Is it unsafe? Especially with small children and pets in the rain?

 

[Leesparkykent]

It's poor workmanship as murdoch says. The likely hood of something going wrong isn't severe. Saying that if I had paid for such an install I wouldn't be best pleased as its sub standard work.......without seeing the whole setup it's hard to say how I would of done it.

 

[davesparks]

It's a very poor job.

The most likely thing that will happen is that water will get in and cause and RCD or MCB to trip.

In fact I'd say it is pretty much guaranteed that water will get in looking at it.

There is a slim chance that someone will receive an electric shock.

 

[Sparky_marky2]

Not good at all but not uncommon been on a few domestic jobs that have been wired this way and end up spending a lot of time on jobs having to rectify as well as doing the original job.
Best to get it looked at.

 

[Deleted member 9648]

Poor, very poor workmanship.

That said, if there is no access apart from the hole we see, then sometimes what you want to do isn't practicable

That's beside the point. Specially from someone so pendantic about two circuits on one RCD.
If it's not practical to do it safely then it cant be done.
I agree with davesparks. At best it wont be very long before this is giving problems, at worst there's a real electric shock risk.
If there is enough slack on the supply cable, and enough space behind, a waterproof pond type connector would be the way to go, or perhaps a gel block. Provision for this should have been made at the design/install phase. If there's no slack on those cables then I doubt a satisfactory joint can be achieved. At a pinch if the joint could be pulled out far enough to use self amalgamating tape that might just do it, still a balls up though.

 

[Richard Daniels]

Thanks everyone for the responses.

I have not paid yet so just trying to figure out what to do. The contractor has suggested pumping the hole with a gel that hardens bit this doesn't feel like a long term solution and also means maintenance will be difficult.

Given that the stairs were built with thier involvement i would expect the job to be done to a high standard.

Any advice is greatly appreciated. They are NICEIC accredited if that helps.

 

[Midwest]

Those luminaires, which seem to have the manufacturers name of 'Knightsbridge'. These type of fitting kits would normally come with long fly lead, that either connects into a bespoke joint box and connectors provided by the manufacturer or a fly lead that should connected to an IP65 joint box provided by a third party.

Looks as if you installer has cut off this lead, presumably because it was too short. As others have said, it's going to cause issues.

Can you post the details of these luminaires? As an aside I'm on my second set of deck lights (cheapo' from Screwfix), which have just packed up again. I am not going to install a third set.

 

[Octopus]

So these are on stairs. Is there no side or rear access at all?

Are they inside or out?

 

[Richard Daniels]

So these are on stairs. Is there no side or rear access at all?

Are they inside or out?

So the lights are outside in the garden. The stairs have been built and paved so no access at all.

The electrician came over and instructed the Landscaper with what he needed bit it feels like not much thought went into the planming phase.

Will the gel help? Or will it still be unsafe?

 

[Midwest]

A hole in a wall is not really a joint box. The gel & brick will eventually part company. What's on the other side of that taped up connector? Details of luminaire?

 

[Devonchris]

am I wrong is assuming these lights are 12v and are fed from a transformer which is accessible?

 

[Midwest]

am I wrong is assuming these lights are 12v and are fed from a transformer which is accessible?

Think it says 230V on side of lamp, but patiently waiting for OP to provide details.

 

[Wilko]

My 20p worth - not practical to seal the junction, so that light is now junk. Hopefully the new one comes with a metre of flex and it can be pulled through the "step" and a proper IP rated jb fitted somewhere.

 

[Flanders]

It not correct , should have used one of these , unless of course there is 3 cables at each point , ,more thought should of gone into the design of the install if that's the case

IP68 Waterproof 3 Pole Plug and Socket Cable Connector 32A 450Vac - http://sinolec.co.uk/en/rewirable-socket-plugs/1211474--ip68-waterproof-3-pole-plug-and-socket-cable-connector-32a-450vac.html?utm_source=GoogleShopping&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=ExportPrestashop&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIpMbvrOb-1QIVjpTtCh3QFALPEAQYASABEgLVcPD_BwE

 

[Richard Daniels]

A hole in a wall is not really a joint box. The gel & brick will eventually part company. What's on the other side of that taped up connector? Details of luminaire?

Knightsbridge LEDM06 - link below.

0.6W LED Mini Ground Light White with 3 Interchangeable Heads | City Electrical Factors - http://www.cef.co.uk/catalogue/products/3871327-0-6w-led-mini-ground-light-white-c-w-3-interchangable-heads

No transformer, fed straight from mains.

Otherside of the junction box is the cable coming from the brickwork which is now not accessible.

 

[DPG]

Agree with above - stick a waterproof plug and socket coupler on. Damp is bound to get into those joints at some point.

 

[Midwest]

Think you would struggle, leaving one of those in that brick wall. I sense this job needs a bit of a revaluation.

 

[Midwest]

Knightsbridge LEDM06 - link below.

0.6W LED Mini Ground Light White with 3 Interchangeable Heads | City Electrical Factors - http://www.cef.co.uk/catalogue/products/3871327-0-6w-led-mini-ground-light-white-c-w-3-interchangable-heads

No transformer, fed straight from mains.

Otherside of the junction box is the cable coming from the brickwork which is now not accessible.

Are your sure that is the exact fitting? The manufacturers data sheet suggests it must be earthed, although it confuses things by saying its Class III and 230V?

The luminaire in your picture suggests its double insulated Class II and doesn't require earthing, your picture suggests the lead doesn't have an earth wire. This needs clarification?

 

[Richard Daniels]

Are your sure that is the exact fitting? The manufacturers data sheet suggests it must be earthed, although it confuses things by saying its Class III and 230V?

The luminaire in your picture suggests its double insulated Class II and doesn't require earthing, your picture suggests the lead doesn't have an earth wire. This needs clarification?

That is a bit odd but it is the correct fitting. The installation sheet (attached) mentions that is does not need to be earthed so one of them is wrong.

Given I have not paid and I don't want the contractors messing around with the steps anymore what are my options?

Can I refuse to pay given its a workaround that will not stand the test if time?

 

[DPG]

I certainly wouldn't pay for a choc-block wrapped up in tape in an outdoors environment. Needs a waterproof joint or a waterproof plug/socket.

The data sheet says class II - no earth needed.

 

[Midwest]

As to how to progress, I would get the installer back and say your not happy with the work. How you're (or they are) going to improve things might be problematic. Could you post a picture that shows the install a bit clearer?

 

[Vitesse]

I had a job a couple of months ago where I had to tidy up a mess left behind by a previous 'electrician'. He had installed some step lights in a simple manner and needless to say they stopped working after a few months. The holes were full of mud and insects, as on the other end of the hole the cable entry point was underneath a load of soil in a flower bed.

I used Wiska Shell Boxes to terminate the connections inside the hole. They are IPX8 rated so nothing can get inside them.

MJB112 - WISKA - make power smile Installation material - https://www.wiska.co.uk/products/pde/MJB112/mjb112.html

 

[Midwest]

I had a job a couple of months ago where I had to tidy up a mess left behind by a previous 'electrician'. He had installed some step lights in a simple manner and needless to say they stopped working after a few months. The holes were full of mud and insects, as on the other end of the hole the cable entry point was underneath a load of soil in a flower bed.

I used Wiska Shell Boxes to terminate the connections inside the hole. They are IPX8 rated so nothing can get inside them.

MJB112 - WISKA - make power smile Installation material - https://www.wiska.co.uk/products/pde/MJB112/mjb112.html

Good shout, but what are their dimensions? Just thinking of OP 'holes'.

 

[Vitesse]

I can't find any dimensions on them on line but they are pretty small as effectively they only have two Wago clamp type connectors inside. I haven't got any left to measure them either, as they are not cheap about a fiver each but they are a really good bit of kit.

You could use two singles with just a single Wago connector in each, so one for each wire if a two way won't fit.

 

[Midwest]

Not sure if there's any slack in the supply cable.

 

[Richard Daniels]

Thanks all, really appreciate the advice.

Hole is 3cm wide and 7cm deep.

 

[DPG]

Good point, is there any slack? Poor show if not. Ought to leave a bit.

 

[late]

I think the light is the knightsbridge LEDM06 which comes with a 2mtr 0.75mm cable, they are rated IP65 but i suspect that is only valid when the outer sheath is sealed to an IP65 enclosure so that no water can ingress down the sheath?

The light is now bin fodder as the cable is most likely too short to make a suitable seal between an IP65 enclosure and the outer sheath of the cable, based on the very poor standard of work i would also suspect that the cable feeding the lights from your house isnt suitable protected in the ground either.

 

[Richard Burns]

A possible, but not guaranteed, solution since you have 30mm of space behind the light and presumably 70mm of cable back to the stone might be to attempt to crimp the cores and seal over the join with heavy wall adhesive lined heat shrink. This would limit any chance of replacing the light but (if there is enough cable length to get the heat shrink over) would cover the exposed cores and seal the junction and if placed back whilst still warm might have enough flexibility to fit in. However space will be very tight to crimp and seal the join.

 

[Richard Daniels]

Update...

Contractor came round this evening and was defensive and tried to convince me it was ok.

We agreed that i wouldn't be paying for the lights given I was unhappy with the standard and based on feedback here thought it is only a matter of time until they stop working. He offered me a 15 year guarantee which I refused.

Long story short I agreed to pay for the other work he had done but not the step lights. My question now is - Is it safe to continue using the lights or do I get them disconnected by another contractor and leave the units in the wall (to cover the holes)?

Or is there a way to salvage this and make it safe / long lasting? There is virtually no slack on the cable given the concrete has fixed the cable in place and the lights have had their cables cut.

Thanks

 

[Richard Daniels]

Thanks again for all the help so far.

 

[Midwest]

At least you did have to cough up for that. Without seeing how its been installed, it would be difficult to comment from here, on recovering what's there. More pictures?

Ultimately, you'll have to get another electrician in, go for word of mouth recommendation, if possible. And a bit of brick removal

 

[ruston]

Update...

Contractor came round this evening and was defensive and tried to convince me it was ok.

We agreed that i wouldn't be paying for the lights given I was unhappy with the standard and based on feedback here thought it is only a matter of time until they stop working. He offered me a 15 year guarantee which I refused.

Long story short I agreed to pay for the other work he had done but not the step lights. My question now is - Is it safe to continue using the lights or do I get them disconnected by another contractor and leave the units in the wall (to cover the holes)?

Or is there a way to salvage this and make it safe / long lasting? There is virtually no slack on the cable given the concrete has fixed the cable in place and the lights have had their cables cut.

Thanks

If it is possible to do as Richard has said , and you can find the source of the supply, you could change the fittings to ELV .( Includes 12volt)
If you seal around the fittings you may get a bit of pleasure out of them, but the job is poorly thought out .

PS . Tiger Seal will stick to most things and will keep the water out.

 

[DPG]

Hate that when people don't leave a bit of extra cable length. Must save them all of about 10 pence.