Discuss Please help me understand cable markings in the Electrical Wiring, Theories and Regulations area at ElectriciansForums.net

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Paul36x

I've moved into an old condo a month ago and have made alot of changes to the electricity but now find out I might be in danger using it.

I need cables for a load of both 20Amp and 40Amp, the circuit breakers have already been replaced. How can I see if the cables being used in my room are capable of carying such a load? I have cables with markings like:

-2x0.5 SQ MM for a 40w lamp
-2x2.5 SQ MM for my sockets that carry an absolute maximum load of 18 Amp \
-2x2.5 SQ MM for my 8000w / 220 = 36.3 Amp shower heater

All cables say 70*C and 300v. Should any of these be replaced and what should the cables I say instead because the salesmen in my hardware store had no idea and neither do the electricians of the condo.
 
Not sure what country you are in or from......

"Condo" is a continental American term, which probably equates to flat, or bedsit in the UK, and the cable specs you give are all pretty well UK, by the sounds.

Thing is......in the nicest possible way, you're not an electrician, and it sounds like some of the work you've done, or are doing should be notified, under Part P of the building regulations.

Best advice right away is to get a qualified electrician in to check the work you've done, and sort out anything you're unsure about.

Right away, I'd be worried about using two 2.5mm T&E for an 8kW shower....5mm CSA seems a little on the light side. Also, socket outlets carry a maximum load of 13A, not 18A.

Generally, if you have a radial circuit on a 20A MCB feeding socket outlets, you may be ok with 2.5mm T&E but more likely you'd want 4mm. 2.5mm is ok for a ring final.

For the shower, you'd normally be looking at either 6mm CSA or 10mm.

The lamp- that sounds like flex, and should be connected via a fused plug top.
 
Well I live in Thailand and the condo electrician has already been here. I don't think they have regulations if you know what I mean. I will make a drawing of my set-up in the condo and post it.
 
Here's a drawing of my room setup:

http://uploadingit.com/file/q6dey6nofis2zdht/power%20scheme.png

Each one of my socket connectors sais 260v and 16 Amp so that should be ok each device having it's own 16Amp socket connector but they all draw power from the same 16 meters of 2x2.5 SQ MM cable protected by a 20Amp breaker as you can see on the picture.

Also I know I need a 6 to 10 SQ MM cable for the heater but they have no such cables for sale that say 10 SQ MM?! What marking does a 6 SQ MM or a 10 SQ MM cable have instead of the 2x2.5 SQ MM my cables have now?
 
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To add up to the story the room used to have a 16Amp breaker installed in the elektra room where all the breakers of the other rooms come together. I had this changed for a 40Amp breaker because of my shower heater, previously the 16Amp would have been just enough. Now someone told me I should get a an upgrade on the meter from 5/15 to a 15/45 but I have no idea what he's talking about.

They don't know and don't care, if I give them a new cable, breaker or meter they will install it but that's it.
 
Alright I found out about the cables, they indeed had a cable that said 2x6 SQ MM and bought it for the 8000w heater. I also bought a 4 SQ MM ground cable for it.

Now chances are I need to pay for the replacement of 50 meters of cable in the hallway of my condo to the breaker and meter there. I just wanted a 128 Euro pump to get a decent shower but ended up spending 550 Euros for a better pump, shower heater, pipes, wiring etc etc and I don't have any money left.

The place came with 7300w of equipment on a 16A breaker and 2.5 SQ MM cable in the first place so I don't feel to guilty with my 8500w setup. I'm prepared to pay for a new 4 SQ MM cable in the hall, would that be sufficient? I only use 500w of electricity except for the 5 minute 8000w peak for the shower daily.
 
Paul I'm afraid your getting things a little confused. I'm assuming that you have bought this 8kw shower from the Uk/Europe as I don't think I have ever seen a power shower in the far east.

Most installations in your neck of the woods will not be designed to take such a load. First you need to make sure that your main fuse/MCB can take that load.

The ground cable is most likely irrelvant over there unless the condo is of a european/US standard, the Far east think earth is somewhere aliens visit.

What type of socket are they using there is it UK or american? Is there 2 voltages there 127/220v? Have you AC there?
 
No I bought it over here, Centon 8kw, it's even a thai brand. The main fuse for my room has been changed to 40amp. We do have ground over here ;)

We have 220v and I use standard sockets like in Holland. I don't have aircon.

I need to know what cable I can minimally install that can take a continues load of 500watt and is safe to cope with a daily 5 minute burst of 8500watt. This would officially be a 10 SQ MM cable but I was told UK regulations allow a 6 SQ MM cable. Now I need to know what would be safe enough for 5 minutes a day, the circuit breaker protecting the line is 40Amp.
 
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I'm very confused TBH, are you saying that you have one fuse (40A) protecting ALL the outlets in your room, lighting & sockets etc, and you also wnat to add a shower to this???
 
No in my room itself everything is according regulations now. My room itself has a 40a main breaker with a 40a breaker for the shower and a 20a breaker for the sockets next to it. Outside of my room is a 50m cable running to a small room where all the apartments in the condomium have their own breakers and meter installed, this one is also a 40a breaker. This 50m cable should be replaced but I can't afford anything but the absolute minimum for again 500w being used 24/7 and the 8kw heater in addition for 5 mins a day.

I shut off the heater once I'm done so there's no danger when it would start leaking and running for hours.
 
Maybe someone could explain the risks to me of using 8500kw on a 4 sq mm or even a 2.5 sq mm cable of 50m in length for 5 minutes. I read about fire and things like voltage drops. I'm not an electrician but the management here itself supplies rooms with 3.5 kw AC's and 3.5 kw shower heaters with 2.5 sq mm cables and nothing is burning down so far. I want to be safe but a 10 sq mm cable looks like overreacting a little bit.
 
Okay, assuming your voltage is constant at 220V, and your main breaker is rated 40A - that gives you a theoretical maximum of 8800W, or 8.8kW load, before the fuse breaks.

The "designer" such as there will have been one, has relied on something called diversity, which as the simplest of expressions is saying not everything is likely to be switched on at the same time, and you are unlikely to need to draw maximum load. I guess that "designer" also didn't consider the advent of electric showers which would swallow all but maximum available load either.

One of the potential issues here is that your maximum load on the 20A breaks is around 3.3kW - so in theory, you *could* be calling for a demand of nearly 12kW - 55A at 220V.

It is, I suspect, fair to say that Thailand does not have any hard and fast regulations regarding electricity, although things are improving. Notwithstanding, cable and electricity work in the same way wherever in the world you are.

Your cables are designed to carry a specific maximum current, based on many characteristics, including efficiency, heat dissipation, insulation characteristics and more. Where those capabilities are regularly exceeded, the cable will break down much more quickly, as it is exceeding it's thermal operational properties, it will get hot, and then brittle, and then break. As it gets hot, the insulation resistance reduces, and once it gets brittle, the insulation breaks away, leading to shorts, in turn leading to secondary fire risk - the first being from excess heat in the cable it self.

Again, in THEORY.....assuming the main breaker has sufficient tolerance to allow 55A through without tripping/breaking, you are still going to do some damage over time. This is one reason why, in the UK, supply cables are rated for maximum demand, and diversity is only applied to certain final circuits.

In THEORY......you *could* use a 4mm CSA cable to carry 55A of load, and given the situation, if you then theoretically applied some kind of diversity, you would arrive at a conclusion whereby you would switch everything else off while using the shower. The problem really comes when you move out and the next person doesn't know to do that, and then runs everything at the same time. But you are still overloading the cable every time you run the shower.

You'd be better off, if at all possible, taking a 10mm CSA minimum from your supply to your main switch, which should be uprated to 55A. 10mm CSA will offer a maximum current capacity of around 57A enclosed in trunking, or around 65A if clipped direct.

4mm CSA cable is only rated for 32A when enclosed in trunking, and around 37A clipped direct - so is under-rated for the supply available.

The risks, essentially are as you describe them - fire, insulation break down, and potential shock, failure of the equipment being fed, and such - not to mention a waste of money if all you end up doing is replacing worn out cable.
 
I will of course never be using the microwave or electric cooker when taking a shower so the max load on the cable would be 8750w, 39,7Amps. All this stuff is mine so no one else well ever be using it. However my heater cable now feels hot every time I use it (currently 2x2.5) so I agree this is dangerous (already have a 6 sq mm replacement for this in the drawer). I'm gonna have a look at the cable outside the room tomorrow, I have no idea but I presume there will be a 2x2.5 cable as well and I'll have it replaced along with the meter, hope I can find a cheap 6sq mm roll.
 
I'm glad I understand everything now, also saves me loads of money because I can go get the supplies myself. If there's any more suggestions for upgrading apartments in condo's/flats let me know. I suppose behind the meter the cable dissolves into some giant communal power cable so this is it.

Thanx!
 
I do have one more question: Does it really matter how big the ground cable is? This a just a minimal discharge right? I saw it was half the size in the triple wired cables. How thick should it be minimally for 40amps?
 
My room itself has a 40a main breaker with a 40a breaker for the shower and a 20a breaker for the sockets next to it. Outside of my room is a 50m cable running to a small room where all the apartments in the condomium have their own breakers and meter installed, this one is also a 40a breaker.

3x40a breakers? the breaker should get bigger the further upstream you get. ie 100a incomoming to meter 60a at consumer unit/fuse board then 40a,32a,16a etc for final circuits. this is so that a local fault won't take out the whole system.
 
3x40a breakers? the breaker should get bigger the further upstream you get. ie 100a incomoming to meter 60a at consumer unit/fuse board then 40a,32a,16a etc for final circuits. this is so that a local fault won't take out the whole system.

Thailand, not Britain.

I think one day there is going to be a LOT of work out there.
 
I do have one more question: Does it really matter how big the ground cable is? This a just a minimal discharge right? I saw it was half the size in the triple wired cables. How thick should it be minimally for 40amps?

No. If you are talking about the main earth for the whole property. In the event of a live to earth fault you could have a massive current going thru it until the breaker disconnects. If that cable was too small and burnt out before the breaker did its job all the earthed metalwork would stay live.

If you are talking about a 2 core and earth wire - the earth size will have been designed to cope if it has been correctly selected in the first place.
 

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