Pulling the dno fuse

[M1k3y1992]

Hi all

The other day a friend of mine who owns a restaurant lost power so I went to take a look for him as I was only around the corner. Upon arriving I found that the tails straight off the meter into the switch fuse had burnt out and one of them was hanging out the box (it was quite a mess and I took photos). As i didnt have any tools on me at this point i couldnt check to see if the cables were safe (although I suspected it had blown the main fuses) so I pulled the main fuses (I didn't cut any tags) as this was the only means of isolation. I then called the electric board to come out and went to fetch my van to take a closer look.

When the man came out he gave me a lot of ---- and wanted to report me saying I put myself in huge danger (in the end he calmed down and said he wouldnt) but Its been playing on my mind. I was well aware of the risks of pulling the fuse but I thought there was a greater risk of leaving it and in the hour the at they took to come out what if i had my back turned and a member of the public had walked in and touched something.

Was he right in saying that I should have just left it because as far as I believe, if something was to have happened they would have said it was the electricians responcibily as it wasn't on their side of the meter. Do you think I did the right thing or could I have handled it any better?

 

[Pete999]

Hi all

The other day a friend of mine who owns a restaurant lost power so I went to take a look for him as I was only around the corner. Upon arriving I found that the tails straight off the meter into the switch fuse had burnt out and one of them was hanging out the box (it was quite a mess and I took photos). As i didnt have any tools on me at this point i couldnt check to see if the cables were safe (although I suspected it had blown the main fuses) so I pulled the main fuses (I didn't cut any tags) as this was the only means of isolation. I then called the electric board to come out and went to fetch my van to take a closer look.

When the man came out he gave me a lot of **** and wanted to report me saying I put myself in huge danger (in the end he calmed down and said he wouldnt) but Its been playing on my mind. I was well aware of the risks of pulling the fuse but I thought there was a greater risk of leaving it and in the hour the at they took to come out what if i had my back turned and a member of the public had walked in and touched something.

Was he right in saying that I should have just left it because as far as I believe, if something was to have happened they would have said it was the electricians responcibily as it wasn't on their side of the meter. Do you think I did the right thing or could I have handled it any better?

Well I don't know the rules and regs regarding what you have described, but if you have the experience with electrical work and there was a likely hood of danger to staff or the public I would have done the same, you have to remember some of these meter men are jobsworths, do their work by numbers, bit like the Russian fighter pilots of years ago, wont do anything unless they are told to by their bosses, some can't think for themselves either.

 

[Wilko]

Each DNO will likely have a different practice, but I'm semi familiar with SSE one (it's available on line). If I recall correctly an Electrician may pull their fuse in an emergency - a CU overheating was an example quoted. Protecting yourself from an arc flash is another issue, and I wouldn't pull a fuse without PPE if the meter was still whizzing.

 

[snowhead]

Hi all

The other day a friend of mine who owns a restaurant lost power

but I thought there was a greater risk of leaving it and in the hour the at they took to come out what if i had my back turned and a member of the public had walked in and touched something.

Was he right in saying that I should have just left it because as far as I believe, if something was to have happened they would have said it was the electricians responcibily as it wasn't on their side of the meter. Do you think I did the right thing or could I have handled it any better?

The most sensible option would have been to instruct the owner / responsible person to lock up the premises (which they should already have done) and for you to have placed a physical barrier in front of the tails / cutout.

 

[M1k3y1992]

I did think afterwards I could have potentially just locked the area off but the issue was they had a restaurant full of people and the fuse board is in the main stairwell. I was not happy with just putting a barrier around the area. When pulling the fuses I wore flash gloves and a mask just in case but there was no load through the circuits as the switch fuse was off

 

[Pete999]

The most sensible option would have been to instruct the owner / responsible person to lock up the premises (which they should already have done) and for you to have placed a physical barrier in front of the tails / cutout.

And watch the building catch fire? no I think the OP did the right thing in this case.

 

[snowhead]

but the issue was they had a restaurant full of people

How big is the restaurant, there should have been a second escape route avoiding the stairs?

 

[snowhead]

No mention of flames in the O.P

Lives come before buildings.

 

[Octopus]

So a real live situation and the tails from the DNO head to the meter are the problem - would I switch off the CU(s) and pull the main fuse - definitely.

End of

 

[Pete999]

No mention of flames in the O.P

Lives come before buildings.

S o tails are smouldering away in mid air, the OP finds the owner tells him to evacuate the building, you go looking for some sort of barrier, or lock the door, in the meantime the cables are still hanging there with 230V on the ends, then go and call the DNO which will probably take some time for them to respond, once you have got past the 18 year old on the phone, mean while cable is still there maybe smouldering, still reckon the OP did the right thing.

 

[M1k3y1992]

S o tails are smouldering away in mid air, the OP finds the owner tells him to evacuate the building, you go looking for some sort of barrier, or lock the door, in the meantime the cables are still hanging there with 230V on the ends, then go and call the DNO which will probably take some time for them to respond, once you have got past the 18 year old on the phone, mean while cable is still there maybe smouldering, still reckon the OP did the right thing.

That is exactly what i thought, apart from it was 400v, my first instinct was to kill the power and normally when i have called them out before they have been really friendly, this one chap was a complete prat. What if someone had entered the building when I had my back turned. Not only that but I had the pressure of getting power back on as they had thousands of pounds worth of tables booked for that evening

 

[Loki]

Am i right in remembering that if an electrician see/finds something that is/could be dangerous/hazardous they have a duty to make it safe or they could be prosecuted if they didnt & someone got injured. So my way of seeing it they did right.

Also dno rules dont superseed electricity at works regulations or health & safety at works act.

Michael

 

[M1k3y1992]

Am i right in remembering that if an electrician see/finds something that is/could be dangerous/hazardous they have a duty to make it safe or they could be prosecuted if they didnt & someone got injured. So my way of seeing it they did right.

Also dno rules dont superseed electricity at works regulations or health & safety at works act.

Michael

This man didn't like it when I told him that haha

 

[Pete999]

That is exactly what i thought, apart from it was 400v, my first instinct was to kill the power and normally when i have called them out before they have been really friendly, this one chap was a complete prat. What if someone had entered the building when I had my back turned. Not only that but I had the pressure of getting power back on as they had thousands of pounds worth of tables booked for that evening

4ooV even worse

 

[Strima]

As there was an immediate risk to life through a potential fire risk I would have done the same thing.

If the DNO wanted to take it further, crack on and see you in court.

 

[M1k3y1992]

As there was an immediate risk to life through a potential fire risk I would have done the same thing.

If the DNO wanted to take it further, crack on and see you in court.

That's what I thought, I was just seeing what other people would have done in this situation as I have not come across this before. I thought the way the technician acted was really unprofessional as he was shouting at me in front of the client saying i didn't know what I was doing. Even if he wasn't happy with the way I did things he could have pulled me to the side and had a chat with me. Luckily in this case the client was a friend

 

[Wilko]

I'm quite sure no company wants one of their employees shouting at people. Irrespective of whether you did the right thing or not. Just saying

 

[Midwest]

We all can act out of turn, when faced with a stressful situation. I guess that's why the DNO engineer lost his cool slightly. I suspect, given the opportunity, he would have commended you for your actions, but would of calmly explained the dangers of what you did.

Seems you acted in good faith, and for the benefit of others. Having had time to reconsider, would you do the same again?

 

[Darkwood]

I have withdrawn the DNO fuse in the past, the reason was the meter was smoking and arcing, I contacted the DNO for an emergency attendance and got he usual rhetoric on the phone about withdrawing the fuse and that it is illegal to interfere with their property, after telling them the reason their attitude quickly changed and it wasn't taken any further.

Having said this though, even in said situation there can be some big risks in doing so, especially if the cutout is damaged or aged, I have seen DNO cutout installers/upgraders on a few occasions refuse to touch the cutouts until power is removed upstream, when even the DNO won't pull the fuse live, you have to realise that the consequences can be deadly especially if you are ignorant to the possible risks.

 

[SparkyChick]

As several others have already said, and in my opinion, you did the right thing and I would have done exactly the same from the information you've posted.

Sounds like the DNO guy was just being a jobsworth.

You mentioned you took photos... I'm sure I'm not the only one who would like to see.

 

[M1k3y1992]

As there was an immediate risk to life through a potential fire risk I would have done the same thing.

If the DNO wanted to take it further, crack on and see you in court.

That's what I thought, I was just seeing what other people would have done in this situation as I have not come across this before. I thought the way the technician acted was really unprofessional as he was shouting at me in front of the client saying i didn't know what I was doing. Even if he wasn't happy with the way I did things he could have pulled me to the side and had a chat with me. Luckily in this case the client was a friend

We all can act out of turn, when faced with a stressful situation. I guess that's why the DNO engineer lost his cool slightly. I suspect, given the opportunity, he would have commended you for your actions, but would of calmly explained the dangers of what you did.

Seems you acted in good faith, and for the benefit of others. Having had time to reconsider, would you do the same again?

Yeah next time I wouldn't tell them I pulled the. Haha

I have withdrawn the DNO fuse in the past, the reason was the meter was smoking and arcing, I contacted the DNO for an emergency attendance and got he usual rhetoric on the phone about withdrawing the fuse and that it is illegal to interfere with their property, after telling them the reason their attitude quickly changed and it wasn't taken any further.

Having said this though, even in said situation there can be some big risks in doing so, especially if the cutout is damaged or aged, I have seen DNO cutout installers/upgraders on a few occasions refuse to touch the cutouts until power is removed upstream, when even the DNO won't pull the fuse live, you have to realise that the consequences can be deadly especially if you are ignorant to the possible risks.

I totally understood the risks and I felt it was the safest thing to do at the time, I would not have pulled them if there was any signs of physical damage or danger to the cut out itself

 

[M1k3y1992]

As several others have already said, and in my opinion, you did the right thing and I would have done exactly the same from the information you've posted.

Sounds like the DNO guy was just being a jobsworth.

You mentioned you took photos... I'm sure I'm not the only one who would like to see.

Like I say when I first arrived I didn't have my van on me so I had no way of telling What was live and dead, I presumed it had blown the main fuse but I couldn't be certain so I pulled the fuses. The whole lot was so hot you could barely touch it.

 

[Darkwood]

@M1k3y1992

My post was a general approach or attitude to doing a DNO fuse withdrawal it was not in response to your situation directly , I think the Engineer was a prat for his approach and kicking off like that, like has been said, if there was an immediate danger to life or property IE it could burn the house down then if it is safe to do so you are allowed to withdraw the fuse and immediately inform the DNO of the situe', you did this and it seems you had the bad look to be attended by a self righteous 'jobsworth' (to repeat SparkyChicks words).. like you say it is lucky it's your friend or I would have been making a formal complaint to the DNO about their onsite attitude and manner.

 

[Pete999]

Like I say when I first arrived I didn't have my van on me so I had no way of telling What was live and dead, I presumed it had blown the main fuse but I couldn't be certain so I pulled the fuses. The whole lot was so hot you could barely touch it.


View attachment 37903

Don't look like any DNO fuse to me.

 

[telectrix]

done exactly the same a couple of times. both times DNO representative said i should not have touched it, but , off the record, he said it was the right thing to do. read that as you will.

 

[M1k3y1992]

Don't look like any DNO fuse to me.

That was the switch fuse that was supplied from the meter, to isolate it I had to pull the dno fuses

 

[Darkwood]

Looking at the Photo I might have to partly agree that this didn't require you to interfere with the DNO's equipment, you had isolated the load and as long as you ensured no one went near the equipment or disturbed that cable(tail) then a DNO emergency call-out would have sufficed, given it in a metal enclosure with no real flammable parts contained in there I cannot myself consider this an immediate risk to life or property.. if concerned and as a qualified sparks you could have waited the usually 1 to 2hr response to ensure no-one got curious.

You would have had other options here too, you could with the correct PPE and insulated tools just cut the offending Tail at a safe point and dressed the live end with tape while you waited on the DNO, remaining on site meant this simple solution would have been fine although just taping the live end up and leaving would not be the right move, you would also need to inform the DNO engineer of your action so (s)he is fully aware of the small risk posed.

I suspect and with all the red tape we have to climb through nowadays with H&S that if you work for anyone then this may not have been an option but working live is a last resort and due to the situation I would say this could be done easily and safely with minimal risk with the correct equipment.

 

[Darkwood]

Myself, (and I work live a lot because of my line of work) I would have cut all tails and made safe, fitted henley blocks and terminated live and then replaced the switchgear and tailed up to the henleys.. but like I say, we live in times where you have to evacuate the shopping center because there's a crack in a light switch :O /

So for practical purposes of giving safe advice and limiting risk...Don't do this at home!

 

[Pete999]

That was the switch fuse that was supplied from the meter, to isolate it I had to pull the dno fuses

Right a misunderstanding.

 

[M1k3y1992]

Looking at the Photo I might have to partly agree that this didn't require you to interfere with the DNO's equipment, you had isolated the load and as long as you ensured no one went near the equipment or disturbed that cable(tail) then a DNO emergency call-out would have sufficed, given it in a metal enclosure with no real flammable parts contained in there I cannot myself consider this an immediate risk to life or property.. if concerned and as a qualified sparks you could have waited the usually 1 to 2hr response to ensure no-one got curious.

You would have had other options here too, you could with the correct PPE and insulated tools just cut the offending Tail at a safe point and dressed the live end with tape while you waited on the DNO, remaining on site meant this simple solution would have been fine although just taping the live end up and leaving would not be the right move, you would also need to inform the DNO engineer of your action so (s)he is fully aware of the small risk posed.

I suspect and with all the red tape we have to climb through nowadays with H&S that if you work for anyone then this may not have been an option but working live is a last resort and due to the situation I would say this could be done easily and safely with minimal risk with the correct equipment.

Thank you for your response, the dilemma i had was the client needed to be up and running as soon as possible. Yes i could have taped it up and waited, and in a circumstance where time was not an issue I would have considered this, but as you can imagine I was under pressure to get power back on asap. With regards to henly blocking the tails, I did this job on a Saturday when wholesalers are all shut and I don't have the parts on my van, but I probably wouldn't have done that live. I did what I thought was best in the moment to immediately remove the hazard.

 

[Darkwood]

Thank you for your response, the dilemma i had was the client needed to be up and running as soon as possible. Yes i could have taped it up and waited, and in a circumstance where time was not an issue I would have considered this, but as you can imagine I was under pressure to get power back on asap. With regards to henly blocking the tails, I did this job on a Saturday when wholesalers are all shut and I don't have the parts on my van, but I probably wouldn't have done that live

Ok - the live part comes with training and confidence, it was an option and only an option if your were comfortable doing it, with regards to pressure from the customer, be careful you don't lose your ability to correctly judge the situe' and act accordingly, it is good when we can resolve the situe' asap to the customers satisfaction but in reality it is what is is and you have to make the calls here not the customer, like I said in my previous post, I think calling out the DNO was correct but think on this occasion you didn't need to pull the fuse yourself, it is my own personal opinion and others may disagree but that is what the forum is here for, to get other opinions... if your ever in this situe again then hopefully your actions will be based on this experience and a reflection on the views given in this thread, just be careful you don't get the DNO filing a court case because you made a hasty decision because the customer was flapping his wings about needing power immediately, had your customer had regular electrical inspections I could bet this would have been picked up and addressed at a more convenient time to him/her.. so in reflection it could have been avoided although it is sometimes hard to call, I suspect it was probably a loose connection that had been burning out over a long duration.

 

[M1k3y1992]

Ok - the live part comes with training and confidence, it was an option and only an option if your were comfortable doing it, with regards to pressure from the customer, be careful you don't lose your ability to correctly judge the situe' and act accordingly, it is good when we can resolve the situe' asap to the customers satisfaction but in reality it is what is is and you have to make the calls here not the customer, like I said in my previous post, I think calling out the DNO was correct but think on this occasion you didn't need to pull the fuse yourself, it is my own personal opinion and others may disagree but that is what the forum is here for, to get other opinions... if your ever in this situe again then hopefully your actions will be based on this experience and a reflection on the views given in this thread, just be careful you don't get the DNO filing a court case because you made a hasty decision because the customer was flapping his wings about needing power immediately, had your customer had regular electrical inspections I could bet this would have been picked up and addressed at a more convenient time to him/her.. so in reflection it could have been avoided although it is sometimes hard to call although it probably was a loose connection that had been burning out over a long duration.

This is the reason I asked the question, to see what others would have done, I want to learn from this experience and see how I can improve. I still feel I did the best I could in the situation though and I never let the customer change my judgement, like i said before, my aim was to remove the hazard so I could work on it safely. What I should have done is put the fuses back before the electric board got there haha

 

[Devonchris]

So you arrive there without tools as your van is elsewhere. You pull the fuses and then go for the van. But you state that you wore flash gloves and a mask.

Unless your mate called you on your way to do a bank job then I think we are missing something here.

Still I suppose its possible you were just out for a stroll in them. People wear anything these days.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

There is no law preventing anyone from removing a DNO fuse.
There is a law preventing someone from tampering with the DNO equipment in order to extract electricity.

 

[Pete999]

There is no law preventing anyone from removing a DNO fuse.
There is a law preventing someone from tampering with the DNO equipment in order to extract electricity.

This post has got to be the most talked about post so far

 

[M1k3y1992]

So you arrive there without tools as your van is elsewhere. You pull the fuses and then go for the van. But you state that you wore flash gloves and a mask.

Unless your mate called you on your way to do a bank job then I think we are missing something here.

Still I suppose its possible you were just out for a stroll in them. People wear anything these days.

I was waiting for someone to say that haha, I was doing a job about 10mins walk away when I got the call. I didn't exactly use a full mask and gloves on this occasion but I was well aware I should have done, I did wear goggles and gloves though as I was chopping out on the previous job ,all the tools I had was a selection of screwdrivers. When the electric board man arrived though I had my van and showed him the correct ppe, I thought the risk was fairly neglagable in the scheme of things.

 

[Pete999]

I was waiting for someone to say that haha, I was doing a job about 10mins walk away when I got the call. I didn't exactly use a full mask and gloves on this occasion but I was well aware I should have done, I did wear goggles and gloves though as I was chopping out on the previous job ,all the tools I had was a selection of screwdrivers. When the electric board man arrived though I had my van and showed him the correct ppe, I thought the risk was fairly neglagable in the scheme of things.

Like I said earlier " jobsworth"

 

[ipf]

There is no law preventing anyone from removing a DNO fuse.
There is a law preventing someone from tampering with the DNO equipment in order to extract electricity.

Spot on.
..and I'm sure I'd isolate before messing about with live tails.
I'm presuming, if immediate supply was required, that the owner got by with two phases and limited single phase supplies....one thing is for sure, that switch fuse needs replacing.
An earthing nut, or equivalent, wouldn't go amiss on that pyro, either.

 

[Darkwood]

There is no law preventing anyone from removing a DNO fuse.
There is a law preventing someone from tampering with the DNO equipment in order to extract electricity.

How do you get to the fuses though?... breaking the seals are classed as tampering... bit of a catch 22

 

[ipf]

How do you get to the fuses though?... breaking the seals are classed as tampering... bit of a catch 22

It's not the tampering that comes into play, though. It's the reason for it.

 

[Darkwood]

It's not the tampering that comes into play, though. It's the reason for it.

Was more of a comical remark not a statement as to the legality of the situe' .... it's like anything, you can break into someones house to rescue them in say a fire condition where as normally breaking and entering is frowned upon

 

[Billsays]

You did the right thing, with the right intentions of saving life and property. The network guy was just doing what all network guys seem to do, overstating there own importance. You are probably more qualified than him anyway............And as for some of the more nervous members on the forum telling you to be careful the DNO doesn't prosecute!
Show me a sparks who hasn't broken a seal or pulled a main fuse and I'll show you a Liar

 

[M1k3y1992]

Spot on.
..and I'm sure I'd isolate before messing about with live tails.
I'm presuming, if immediate supply was required, that the owner got by with two phases and limited single phase supplies....one thing is for sure, that switch fuse needs replacing.
An earthing nut, or equivalent, wouldn't go amiss on that pyro, either.

Exactly what I have done and what I plan on doing. Best I could do on a Saturday with what I had on my van.

 

[Phil Thompson]

IMO OP did the right thing.

E@WR states no working live. So that voids the cut live cable & tape up or Henley block it.

Your duty is the safety of
1. Persons
2. Livestock
3. Property
In that order.

So with people in the building it was safest option to pull the DNo fuse imo.

 

[Darkwood]

You did the right thing, with the right intentions of saving life and property. The network guy was just doing what all network guys seem to do, overstating there own importance. You are probably more qualified than him anyway............And as for some of the more nervous members on the forum telling you to be careful the DNO doesn't prosecute!
Show me a sparks who hasn't broken a seal or pulled a main fuse and I'll show you a Liar

I beg to differ, with older meters and cutouts it was rarely contended as it was actually hard to prove unless you admitted it and it was recorded, with modern smart meters now there has been cases where the DNO has submitted a fine normally to the home owner due to the meters been powered down in conjunction with missing meter seals... I know because it happened to a mate, he didn't like the quote from his energy supplier to drop the tails out so he got a sparky mate to do it (not me) and upgrade the board too, because he enquired about a cost and because the smart meter registered a power down while no network issues were present he got a knock on the door and they inspected his meter... he was asked to provide the Electricians details but refused as it was his friend .. he as the house owner was subsequently handed a hefty fine.... it does happen but only when they have enough evidence to proceed and issue a fine.

Smart meters now log times and dates of any power outs, that is half the evidence they need the rest just needs the correct circumstances for them to suspect it has been done, in my mates case he rang for a quote, had he not got a mate in I would suspect he would have passed on the details and shown them an invoice for work done..

 

[Pete999]

Spot on.
..and I'm sure I'd isolate before messing about with live tails.
I'm presuming, if immediate supply was required, that the owner got by with two phases and limited single phase supplies....one thing is for sure, that switch fuse needs replacing.
An earthing nut, or equivalent, wouldn't go amiss on that pyro, either.

Never had earth nuts in those days Mate all down to good workmanship.

 

[Billsays]

I beg to differ, with older meters and cutouts it was rarely contended as it was actually hard to prove unless you admitted it and it was recorded, with modern smart meters now there has been cases where the DNO has submitted a fine normally to the home owner due to the meters been powered down in conjunction with missing meter seals... I know because it happened to a mate, he didn't like the quote from his energy supplier to drop the tails out so he got a sparky mate to do it (not me) and upgrade the board too, because he enquired about a cost and because the smart meter registered a power down while no network issues were present he got a knock on the door and they inspected his meter... he was asked to provide the Electricians details but refused as it was his friend .. he as the house owner was subsequently handed a hefty fine.... it does happen but only when they have enough evidence to proceed and issue a fine.

Smart meters now log times and dates of any power outs, that is half the evidence they need the rest just needs the correct circumstances for them to suspect it has been done, in my mates case he rang for a quote, had he not got a mate in I would suspect he would have passed on the details and shown them an invoice for work done..

Been personally pulling main fuses and cutting seals for over 30 years. Now my company pulls and cut 100s per year. Never had so much as hint of a problem from the DNO.......I think the subbing out of meter reading probably makes it even less likely of a prosecution or a fine!

 

[Toneyz]

Never had earth nuts in those days Mate all down to good workmanship.

Good tight gland ,brass nut, bolt and earth fly lead.

 

[Darkwood]

Been personally pulling main fuses and cutting seals for over 30 years. Now my company pulls and cut 100s per year. Never had so much as hint of a problem from the DNO.......I think the subbing out of meter reading probably makes it even less likely of a prosecution or a fine!

There are areas where you can legally as an electrician cut tails, seal them with temp' seals and notify the DNO, I never said it was common for a prosecution or fine just saying that now with modern tech you may see a rise in it, I still agree it will still be rare given the number of times it's done.

 

[Billsays]

There are areas where you can legally as an electrician cut tails, seal them with temp' seals and notify the DNO, I never said it was common for a prosecution or fine just saying that now with modern tech you may see a rise in it, I still agree it will still be rare given the number of times it's done.

I'm not talking about the times you can legally do it I'm talking about the day to day stuff in the real world where you do it to change a ccu. It happens 100s of times a day. I doubt there will be an increase in the zero amount of prosecutions there are now with the increased deregulation.