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Discuss RCD trip after board upgrade. Frustration who on my side? Who's on landlords? A rant! in the UK Electrical Forum area at ElectriciansForums.net

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My mrs recently new bezzy girl mates partner has some property, my mrs said, " my hubby do it for ya at a good rate "

joy i think. I had this gut feeling, you know the one! My mrs and her mate have been looking to get us two men friends, there was even talks of going camping, err don't think that will be happening now. Lol


Anyway, I will refer to him as the landlord but least you now know the connections.

The landlord URGENTLY needed to get a EICR pass certificate, so that the council would let him rent his property to one of their tenants. It's the weekend and I said " ok, I'd do it."

After doing a test, the test failed and I said it was in his best interest to just upgrade the whole board. Nothing was on a RCD, he had an electric shower recently installed as well as a boiler upgrade converted from a water heater tank to a combi no RCD . I charged him 350 total, (I hate favours) this included changing to metal light fitting to pendants cos no earth just a flex visible, installing another 2 lights that were off the wall, replace two 1 gang sockets, clipping a twin earth to wall in the out house and Changing a pull cord. Bonding from 6 to 10 mm. Also after removing the cooker switch had to extend the cables.

Anyway the tenant moves in on the Monday, uses the oven and the RCD trips. Great, I just knew it! I went round there, I disconnect the oven re-check the insulation of the 6mm cable as I need to lengthen the cables of the cooker socket after removing it, could of be a fault there. It reads 216 meg ohms, I check the oven it reads 0.96meg at first and slowly goes up every time it recheck it. I tell him it's the oven. I put the oven back In as it reads 3 meg the time I last check. It tripped again after about 10 minutes. I was there 2 hours.

He is under the impression that it is to do with the work I done and said in the form of a text, "well I thought you passed this property and it was good to go." I then politely explained that I only checked the fixed wiring. I also I hinted that I wanted extra money.

After much explaining and explaining the difference between mcb and RCD I told him that he needed a new oven. There was many texts thrown backward and forwards.

I ended saying, " look ! Don't worry about paying me for this extra call, there's nothing more I can do, you need a new oven and find another electrician. I didn't end it to professionally I know, but man I thought I was the one doing the favour, I did get annoyed with he constant questioning as if I am trying to rip him off saying well it was working before. I would be interested what he would of been charged by going to a local firm. I did Explain well there wasn't an RCD before and push in mcbs don't pick up this kind of fault.

he then started saying well he finds it rather strange, the guy told me he had his part p so you would expect he would understand what I was explaining.

Anyway now it's playing on mind. I just want to know now, will he get a oven, will he get another electrician out. cos sure what of he does replace the oven and it does still trip. Arrrrh ! Give me comfort someone lol also how would you deal with this professionally because having to send texting explaining how an RCD works and the difference between an RCD and mcb just didn't do it for me.


thanks in advance for any replies


Jim
 
Re: RCD trip after board upgrade. Frustration who on my side? Who's on landlords? A r

Are there any issues with the fixed wiring that would trip an RCD? From what you've said I'd say no.

Is the oven likely to continue tripping the RCD? From what you've said I'd say yes.

Is a replacement oven likely to have a fault which would trip an RCD? Probably not.
 
Re: RCD trip after board upgrade. Frustration who on my side? Who's on landlords? A r

Mate tell him to waste his money on another spark and let him say exactly the same thing that u did. What a muppet
 
Re: RCD trip after board upgrade. Frustration who on my side? Who's on landlords? A r

How many years have you been testing and what are your quals?
 
Re: RCD trip after board upgrade. Frustration who on my side? Who's on landlords? A r

i think he'll replace the oven and you'll get a heart felt apology via text and and cash envelope in the post for your trouble... you know, like all our other customers would in the same circumstances :)
 
Re: RCD trip after board upgrade. Frustration who on my side? Who's on landlords? A r

What is an EICR pass certificate?

Probably the same as the enigma also known as a landlords certificate
 
Re: RCD trip after board upgrade. Frustration who on my side? Who's on landlords? A r

The way I have often put it to them is "The new consumer unit is sensitive to faults that your old fuseboard was not and will trip if you have faulty equipment".
 
Re: RCD trip after board upgrade. Frustration who on my side? Who's on landlords? A r

Are there any issues with the fixed wiring that would trip an RCD? From what you've said I'd say no.

Is the oven likely to continue tripping the RCD? From what you've said I'd say yes.

Is a replacement oven likely to have a fault which would trip an RCD? Probably not.

yer, well until he gets a new oven replaces it and sees no trip, then I will know.
 
Re: RCD trip after board upgrade. Frustration who on my side? Who's on landlords? A r

Also with the tests you have done you have proved the oven is faulty so sleep easy :)
 
Re: RCD trip after board upgrade. Frustration who on my side? Who's on landlords? A r

Has the oven been sat dormant for a while? Or is it a new oven with the protective element coating causing the issue?
Cookers are notorious for this... There are ways to confirm this and possibly rectify, but only experience will help you there...
 
Re: RCD trip after board upgrade. Frustration who on my side? Who's on landlords? A r

How many years have you been testing and what are your quals?
I been testing since 2007, I have 17 edition, part 2, 2391, part p, NICEIC domestic installer in my first years of starting self employed. Have 10 years overall experience. Just got my first big job to test 300 flats start Thursday.
 
Re: RCD trip after board upgrade. Frustration who on my side? Who's on landlords? A r

yer, well until he gets a new oven replaces it and sees no trip, then I will know.

You should know from the full inspection and testing you carried out that the installation is fine.

Out of curiosity why was the board changed in the first place? As you know the EICR can't have returned an 'unsatisfactory' result just because there wasn't an RCD
 
Re: RCD trip after board upgrade. Frustration who on my side? Who's on landlords? A r

Experience will also teach you to test with certain loads connected too.... Saves many a 'revisit'
 
Re: RCD trip after board upgrade. Frustration who on my side? Who's on landlords? A r

You should know from the full inspection and testing you carried out that the installation is fine.

Out of curiosity why was the board changed in the first place? As you know the EICR can't have returned an 'unsatisfactory' result just because there wasn't an RCD

I believe he would have isolated cooker DP switch for I/R test. This again proves the value of the "Main switch off, everything plugged in and switched on global L&N-E 250V IR test".
 
Re: RCD trip after board upgrade. Frustration who on my side? Who's on landlords? A r

Pretty sure bs7671 will tell you to test with loads disconnected.
The point of installation testing is to test the installation not the installation & appliances.

Testing appliances would be an additional test, which I believe is also a mandatory requirement for a rented property.
 
Re: RCD trip after board upgrade. Frustration who on my side? Who's on landlords? A r

Pretty sure bs7671 will tell you to test with loads disconnected.
The point of installation testing is to test the installation not the installation & appliances.

Testing appliances would be an additional test, which I believe is also a mandatory requirement for a rented property.

Im not talking about BS7671, Im talking about avoiding situations like these. At the end of the day these new DB's are going to be energised with all loads connected so you want to know if any have faults present.
 
Re: RCD trip after board upgrade. Frustration who on my side? Who's on landlords? A r

You should know from the full inspection and testing you carried out that the installation is fine.


Out of curiosity why was the board changed in the first place? As you know the EICR can't have returned an 'unsatisfactory' result just because there wasn't an RCD



Yes, well there was a shower recently put in by whom I don't know, no RCD, there was also a alteration to the boiler circuit from a wart heater which was wired upstairs to a combi which is now wired downstairs no RCD.he had 2 sockets within 300mm in the kitchen to the hob and sink, I know this is just in the building regs, but in my opinion it wAs a better outcome to upgrade the board rather than spuring out in such a tight space as I could only fit a 6 way board In the cupboard where the board was located.

If I am wrong please explain, cos I thought any alteration to a circuit then the whole circuit had to be done to the current regulations.
 
Re: RCD trip after board upgrade. Frustration who on my side? Who's on landlords? A r

Yes, well there was a shower recently put in by whom I don't know, no RCD, there was also a alteration to the boiler circuit from a wart heater which was wired upstairs to a combi which is now wired downstairs no RCD.he had 2 sockets within 300mm in the kitchen to the hob and sink, I know this is just in the building regs, but in my opinion it wAs a better outcome to upgrade the board rather than spuring out in such a tight space as I could only fit a 6 way board In the cupboard where the board was located.

If I am wrong please explain, cos I thought any alteration to a circuit then the whole circuit had to be done to the current regulations.
I can nearly always justify a new DB :)
 
Re: RCD trip after board upgrade. Frustration who on my side? Who's on landlords? A r

Agreed Bs7671 will tell you to disconnect for IR test, but I thought we were referring to the real world here...
i will admit that I've walked away from a db change or RCD install after not testing with the loads connect only to be called back the first time the customer turned on the oven/ immersion etc etc.... Only to find they had a L-E fault
But it was a very long time ago and certainly, the first time was the last time...
 
Re: RCD trip after board upgrade. Frustration who on my side? Who's on landlords? A r

Agreed Bs7671 will tell you to disconnect for IR test, but I thought we were referring to the real world here...
i will admit that I've walked away from a db change or RCD install after not testing with the loads connect only to be called back the first time the customer turned on the oven/ immersion etc etc.... Only to find they had a L-E fault
But it was a very long time ago and certainly, the first time was the last time...

N-E surely? L-E would have took out old fuse :)
 
Re: RCD trip after board upgrade. Frustration who on my side? Who's on landlords? A r

Agreed Bs7671 will tell you to disconnect for IR test, but I thought we were referring to the real world here...
i will admit that I've walked away from a db change or RCD install after not testing with the loads connect only to be called back the first time the customer turned on the oven/ immersion etc etc.... Only to find they had a L-E fault
But it was a very long time ago and certainly, the first time was the last time...

Yes, I agree I should of done this. But in this case I f I would of done that I would of been I the same dispute because this part p landlord. Opulent understand how it was working and isn't now.
 
Re: RCD trip after board upgrade. Frustration who on my side? Who's on landlords? A r

Age of alterations is irrelevant as far as EICR coding goes. If the alterations have recently been carried out other than in accordance with the regulations then the owner of the property should take it up with the person who did the work for him.
 
Re: RCD trip after board upgrade. Frustration who on my side? Who's on landlords? A r

Jimmy you're in the clear man, you might get to laugh at him if he comes back with his tail between his legs if you're lucky.
 
Re: RCD trip after board upgrade. Frustration who on my side? Who's on landlords? A r

Yes, I agree I should of done this. But in this case I f I would of done that I would of been I the same dispute because this part p landlord. Opulent understand how it was working and isn't now.

Well you got nothing to worry about and you will go in with different approach next time no doubt.
 
Re: RCD trip after board upgrade. Frustration who on my side? Who's on landlords? A r

N-E surely? L-E would have took out old fuse :)
N- e on the oven was 0.97 meg live to earth was 1 meg. I put the oven back in with them reading 3 meg across n-e and l- e. After 10 minutes it tripped, when it heats up perhaps the metal expands even more and then trips out.
 
Re: RCD trip after board upgrade. Frustration who on my side? Who's on landlords? A r

Out of interest is the a min distance for sockets adjacent to a hob?

Building regs say 300mm for hobs and sinks. Try that in social housing 1 bed kitchen's and they wont have any!
 
Re: RCD trip after board upgrade. Frustration who on my side? Who's on landlords? A r

Well you got nothing to worry about and you will go in with different approach next time no doubt.
Yer man I am disappointed with the way I dealt with him, it just wound me up because I worked a weekend for less money than I would of usually charged and felt I was doing him a good favour. Like I said the mrs was hoping for a friendship to build from this lol.
 
Re: RCD trip after board upgrade. Frustration who on my side? Who's on landlords? A r

Thanks meggerman need to refresh my knowledge of building regs then. Wasn't aware or the hob requirement, just the sink...
not the id have anything that close anyhow. :)
 
Re: RCD trip after board upgrade. Frustration who on my side? Who's on landlords? A r

Agreed Bs7671 will tell you to disconnect for IR test, but I thought we were referring to the real world here...
i will admit that I've walked away from a db change or RCD install after not testing with the loads connect only to be called back the first time the customer turned on the oven/ immersion etc etc.... Only to find they had a L-E fault
But it was a very long time ago and certainly, the first time was the last time...

The house was empty and I was only there to test the fixed wiring. All the or test came back over 100 meg


I may be wrong as I trained under a previous version of the regs here but is it not a requirement that the testing includes a functional test? ie. turn it all on and make sure it works.

Or is it just me being daft by using common sense when I check that everything works as expected/intended after energising an installation or completeing all other tests on an EICR?

If I have read the OP correctly (not much chance with the state of the written english there) then the fault on the oven is occuring after it has been on for a while ie. its a faulty element which only shorts once it has warmed up a bit and everything has expanded. Basic oven element fault is that one, just test to make sure and then change the element, no need to go changing the whole appliance is there?

Did you even open the oven up to see if there was just a trapped neutral inside it? this is more common than you would think.
 
Re: RCD trip after board upgrade. Frustration who on my side? Who's on landlords? A r

Yer man I am disappointed with the way I dealt with him, it just wound me up because I worked a weekend for less money than I would of usually charged and felt I was doing him a good favour. Like I said the mrs was hoping for a friendship to build from this lol.
You never know, if it sinks in and he understands it, you may net an apology and go camping after all!!
 
Re: RCD trip after board upgrade. Frustration who on my side? Who's on landlords? A r

Jimmy you're in the clear man, you might get to laugh at him if he comes back with his tail between his legs if you're lucky.
I do want him to experience the real world prices of a spark, the only fear back in mind is that the only other out come is that it's a collection of the 3 circuits earth leakage and the cooker is the demand that is tipping The leakage, but like I said all the circuit were above 100. But I just didn't think that the cooker would trip out at 1 meg, so like I said to tell my critical thinking mind I come up with the theory that when it's heating up, it all expands creating the fault. I think I get to laugh anyway because I know I do him a good price and he'll realise that when needing a sparky next.
 
Re: RCD trip after board upgrade. Frustration who on my side? Who's on landlords? A r

I may be wrong as I trained under a previous version of the regs here but is it not a requirement that the testing includes a functional test? ie. turn it all on and make sure it works.

Or is it just me being daft by using common sense when I check that everything works as expected/intended after energising an installation or completeing all other tests on an EICR?

If I have read the OP correctly (not much chance with the state of the written english there) then the fault on the oven is occuring after it has been on for a while ie. its a faulty element which only shorts once it has warmed up a bit and everything has expanded. Basic oven element fault is that one, just test to make sure and then change the element, no need to go changing the whole appliance is there?

Did you even open the oven up to see if there was just a trapped neutral inside it? this is more common than you would think.
Don't understand that Dave. You are saying don't do I/R with loads connected as not in regs (but would really help) but are ok with taking oven apart which is definatly outside BS7671 scope and not his job to do. ?
 
Re: RCD trip after board upgrade. Frustration who on my side? Who's on landlords? A r

Never do financial favours in business... The favour should be in the form of the support and service... Lol
if there was no load equipment when you tested, have faith in your ability and if recalled when things have been connected, go straight to them and eliminate them first.
sounds like you're in the clear, so put it all down to experience ..
 
Re: RCD trip after board upgrade. Frustration who on my side? Who's on landlords? A r

I may be wrong as I trained under a previous version of the regs here but is it not a requirement that the testing includes a functional test? ie. turn it all on and make sure it works.

Or is it just me being daft by using common sense when I check that everything works as expected/intended after energising an installation or completeing all other tests on an EICR?

If I have read the OP correctly (not much chance with the state of the written english there) then the fault on the oven is occuring after it has been on for a while ie. its a faulty element which only shorts once it has warmed up a bit and everything has expanded. Basic oven element fault is that one, just test to make sure and then change the element, no need to go changing the whole appliance is there?

Did you even open the oven up to see if there was just a trapped neutral inside it? this is more common than you would think.

i wasn't originally there to do the oven. I was there to actually do a EICR, he needed a satisfactory certificate. I said that it was in his best interest to upgrade the board rather than just souring certain certain circuits from the board on a RCD. I changed the board. When the tenant moved in all was good, the oven was on for about 20 minutes and then tripped. The board had already been upgraded, he wanted me to go back because he blamed the work that I had carried out - does this make sense.
 
Re: RCD trip after board upgrade. Frustration who on my side? Who's on landlords? A r

Never do financial favours in business... The favour should be in the form of the support and service... Lol
if there was no load equipment when you tested, have faith in your ability and if recalled when things have been connected, go straight to them and eliminate them first.
sounds like you're in the clear, so put it all down to experience ..
Yer amen to that.
 
Re: RCD trip after board upgrade. Frustration who on my side? Who's on landlords? A r

I think what Dave means is that if you'd done a functional test on the oven you might have found it before all this but I have to say, if I'm doing a domestic EICR I don't go round checking the appliances so I'd have missed this one too.
 
Re: RCD trip after board upgrade. Frustration who on my side? Who's on landlords? A r

Of course, if it looked like a dodgy secondhand oven that's been stood dormant in a damp shed for years before the landlord bought it, I could suggest turning every element up to max, whipping out the earth conductor and standing well clear! Lol
after 5-10 mins the fault may clear... And at the worse there would be a bloody great hole in the faulty element or the remnants of a faulty stat controller splattered around the kitchen ;-)
..... But obviously that is well outside the scope of bs7671 ...
 
Re: RCD trip after board upgrade. Frustration who on my side? Who's on landlords? A r

Thanks meggerman need to refresh my knowledge of building regs then. Wasn't aware or the hob requirement, just the sink...
not the id have anything that close anyhow. :)
As long as I don't see one directly behind the hob, I don't have a problem with it. The majority a directly to one side.
 
Re: RCD trip after board upgrade. Frustration who on my side? Who's on landlords? A r

Has the oven been sat dormant for a while? Or is it a new oven with the protective element coating causing the issue?
Cookers are notorious for this... There are ways to confirm this and possibly rectify, but only experience will help you there...
I don't know, he simply argue that it was working before I changed the board.
 

Reply to RCD trip after board upgrade. Frustration who on my side? Who's on landlords? A rant! in the UK Electrical Forum area at ElectriciansForums.net

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