RCD Tripping - Advice Needed

[jakeevans]

Thanks everyone, I'm so glad there are knowledgeable people like you guys out there Honestly this RCD tripping was becoming a big big nuisance, couldn't even get on with our work. Now that you have explained @Gavin John Hyde I just hope it's just some moving about that will cure the issue.

The electrician did look knowledgeable, he did use that big armoured cable from the tub to the consumer unit and did a neat job, and that's the first thing I checked about being Part P qualified (so that put my mind at rest straight away), just can't understand why he left it in this state, the electrician itself works for the hot tub company.

Even after researching myself, I would have thought a simple 32amp RCBO would have been a better option even though I'm no electrician myself. Just wish I made contact on this forum sooner

It's a pain in the neck when all our fridges,freezers and pc's go off all due to this hot tub...hope it isn't going to be a ongoing pain in my life

I'm glad however at least the RCD is working. After hearing your story @wirepuller , I think I would stay at a hotel if that happened to me, no RCD is like a person just waiting to get fried...

 

[jakeevans]

Also just out of curiosity, I need to ask this, my cousin had her kitchen just redone, looks really nice, but I couldn't help notice that under the sink, right under the hot and cold water pipes, the electrician installed a socket for the washing machine right under them.

It looks really worrying because if that pipe ever drips, or worst case scenario, bursts, its just going to leak all over the socket.

Is installing a socket under kitchen sink pipes ok?

Also one other question, for their consumer unit, all their circuits were on RCBO's, is that common practice? and is ok?

 

[Des 56]

It looks really worrying because if that pipe ever drips, or worst case scenario, bursts, its just going to leak all over the socket.

If you were to apply that reasoning to the vast majority of domestic installations then there are countless potentially worrying installations where the bathroom is located upstairs and a Kitchen dotted with accessories (these sockets may have channelling that could direct the flow of water) directly below

Its quite common for accessories to be in a position where water pipes are present,they present no more danger than those that appear not to be threatened by burst or leaking pipes

The most important thing with electrical gear is to have adequate protection should a problem occur,there is nothing untoward about siting a socket under a sink

 

[Des 56]

Rcbos filled boards are a better form of applying the protection the regs require, rather than the standard dual Rcd boards that are usually fitted,the dual Rcd board just about fulfils the requirements if not the intent of the required protection
Good to hear she has a full Rcbo protected board

 

[Toneyz]

Obviously without seeing it I can’t tell but I can do some tests if you want us to have a look. Won’t take long to test

Caerablokes a bit vocal lately

 

[camerabloke]

Me? Nah

 

[sparksfly]

Hi Jake...it is sad that there are individuals and companies out there that see £££'s before reason and are quick to replace or upgrade. I agree it could have been investigated first but whats done is done. As mentioned by others here at least you have a good quality board with some RCBO's but the overall circuit layout could have been configured better. You can get an RCBO installed for the Hot tub, perhaps consolidate/move 2x light circuits into one free up another space for a RCBO socket circuit.

Maybe mention/suggest to the electrician could he swap a few 6a for 32a RCBO's ? would he be willing as there is still a fault as before ( as you had a distant relative electrician visit recently who suggested this !!) Would he consider doing this for free ?...it is worth a try. Then the hot tub circuit can be tested by someone else later.

I don't think you have been ripped off per say but the standard is lower than expected as no/or V little thought has been applied to circuit layout/separation. I often give the customer options with regard to new consumer units, they opt for new consumer unit and test afterwards (as opposed to test report first, replace later). I always have a caveat "if you have any inherent earth faults I will fix them if it takes only a few seconds/minuets to correct otherwise it would have to be at extra cost". This is being honest.....or...maybe I could borrow/hire Pete's famous "Crystal Ball" before starting any electrical work.

Another note:-
As I get older and a little more cynical I wonder who sponsors programmes like rogue traders? I wonder if it is some subscription loving, corporate companies with big advertising budget's, selling home services !!! Don't get me wrong, bring bad workmanship to task but I'd like to think there are still quite a few out there who work V hard and go to sleep knowing they have done their best out there.

 

[camerabloke]

I think the faith and trust into getting the original sparks back has gone. After reading this as maybe an outsider would. I wouldn’t have them back to do jack in my house

 

[Octopus]

But seemingly reluctant to have one of offers on here to visit FOC either ................ odd to say the least!

 

[Gasinspect]

Agree with all the comments about the way RCBO's have been used, and never a good idea to lump all power circuits.
Also check that the sockets for your IT equipment have separated earths - two separate earth terminals for each socket.
Get insulation and earth leakage test on hot tub.
And find a new electrician.

 

[Deleted member 9648]

Agree with all the comments about the way RCBO's have been used, and never a good idea to lump all power circuits.
Also check that the sockets for your IT equipment have separated earths - two separate earth terminals for each socket.
Get insulation and earth leakage test on hot tub.
And find a new electrician.

Really?
It's a house, hardly likely to have enough IT equipment for that to be an issue.

 

[telectrix]

If your in Northampton I’ll personally come round and tell you where to go

but don't forget to take pete back home. OP has enough problems without him stuck there.

 

[jakeevans]

Hi @sparksfly, thanks for your advice, so I had a word first thing this morning with the existing electrician ( I couldn't sleep) and he did say he thought he put the hot tub on the RCBO (but it wasn't), maybe a genuine mistake, maybe not, anyhow he said he'll rectify the issue by moving it to an RCBO at no charge. So you're probably right, might get him to get that sorted and then get someone else to do the testing.

I think i'll also get someone to change all the MCB's to RCBO's as well, it was a pain in the neck trying to find the culprit on this occasion, especially when the electrician said it isn't yet in the end it was.

Thanks for all your help guys as well, @camerabloke, @Murdoch and @Gasinspect.

 

[Gasinspect]

Really?
It's a house, hardly likely to have enough IT equipment for that to be an issue.

he said he runs his business from home, and gave a list of IT equipment he had. then a slight earth leak on hot tub might be enough to tip it. just a thought. had an issue once with a customer who had home office, a few computers and a server - and a dishwasher! We changed sockets for ones with dual earth terminals. Your raise an interesting point - how much IT equipment would you allow without separating the earths?

 

[westward10]

This thread is unbelievable. You have two problems, one finding a decent electrician in Northants, two the hot tub. Solution, contact Raybell skip hire to place the hot tub in the skip result, rcd tripping gone and street cred improved with the hot tub gone

 

[jakeevans]

@Gasinspect that's exactly what I thought, I think the hot tub is just touching the brim and causing it to trip. It explains the intermittence trips as its probably the hot tub just automatically turning on its pump/heater or blowers.

Just to confirm though, if I get all RCBO's for all circuits, that will mean that any earth leakage will remain on that single circuit and won't affect others right?

 

[Gasinspect]

I expect that your RCD trips at 30milliamps, so if earth leakage approaches that figure it will trip. Of course being electromechanical they can also occasionally be faulty. Some of the guys that have replied obviously know their stuff and have offered to come and sort it so go for it. Note the one who said he would fit a type c for a hot tub, worth considering.

 

[DPG]

@Gasinspect that's exactly what I thought, I think the hot tub is just touching the brim and causing it to trip. It explains the intermittence trips as its probably the hot tub just automatically turning on its pump/heater or blowers.

Just to confirm though, if I get all RCBO's for all circuits, that will mean that any earth leakage will remain on that single circuit and won't affect others right?

Yes, the 30mA RCD allows up to 30mA (less in practice) earth leakage in total from all the circuits fed from it. The RCBO fed circuits each have their own 30mA 'quota' of earth leakage.

 

[Octopus]

@Gasinspect

Just to confirm though, if I get all RCBO's for all circuits, that will mean that any earth leakage will remain on that single circuit and won't affect others right?

Hum ...... Randomly changing parts without competence and test kit is NOT ADVISED.

I note you haven't provided any details of what the certificate says .......

So op, is this your installation gone wrong?

 

[DPG]

I think I'm with Murdoch on this one.

 

[Pete999]

I think I'm with Murdoch on this one.

As am I, on this issue.

 

[sparksburnout]

I think I'm with Murdoch on this one.

Having just read through it I think me too. Don't think there is a sparky involved somehow.

 

[jakeevans]

Thanks @DPG, that answered my question.
All I asked this for was for pure information, so I know what's going on rather than having anymore go wrong

Also thanks @Murdoch,@DPG,@Pete999 & @sparksburnout for jumping to conclusions, you honestly think I'm going to even touch a consumer unit yet alone know how to change an RCBO, that's why I'm always cautious when people offer things FOC.... can put the blame on the customer

 

[MDJ]

Nah I aint playing, something smells here and it is not last nights curry sauce.

 

[sparksburnout]

Thanks @DPG, that answered my question.
All I asked this for was for pure information, so I know what's going on rather than having anymore go wrong

Also thanks @Murdoch,@DPG,@Pete999 & @sparksburnout for jumping to conclusions, you honestly think I'm going to even touch a consumer unit yet alone know how to change an RCBO, that's why I'm always cautious when people offer things FOC.... can put the blame on the customer

I don't think we jumped, we were led, bit by bit........

 

[jakeevans]

Smell all you like @MDJ, i'm just an honest customer looking for some advice...

 

[sparksburnout]

Smell all you like @MDJ, i'm just an honest customer looking for some advice...

I have never had a customer ask me things like:
Is installing a socket under kitchen sink pipes ok?

Also one other question, for their consumer unit, all their circuits were on RCBO's, is that common practice? and is ok?

 

[Octopus]

Also thanks @Murdoch,@DPG,@Pete999 & @sparksburnout for jumping to conclusions, you honestly think I'm going to even touch a consumer unit yet alone know how to change an RCBO, that's why I'm always cautious when people offer things FOC.... can put the blame on the customer

The only offers I see you have had that are FOC are a site visit to understand the problem first hand ................ this is very normal and once I've been onsite, then and only then would I discuss options and rough costs with a client.

Anyone asking for money to just pay you or is it your mum? a visit should be avoided IMHO.

Do you have a certificate from the installer of the fuseboard?

 

[sparksburnout]

The only offers I see you have had that are FOC are a site visit to understand the problem first hand ................ this is very normal and once I've been onsite, then and only then would I discuss options and rough costs with a client.

Anyone asking for money to just pay you or is it your mum? a visit should be avoided IMHO.

Do you have a certificate from the installer of the fuseboard?

That's the third time you have asked that are you getting dementia?

 

[Octopus]

That's the third time you have asked that are you getting dementia?

No................ but after 2 attempts and no reasonable response from the OP one does wonder if it actually exists ....................... and then the OP gets arsy .....................

Edit : I see you are in Notts - you didn't do the install!

 

[ipf]

This is getting a bit daft.
It's a basic mistake for a qualified electrician to design such a layout with RCBO's, MCB's and RCD's. It's devoid of competence. Makes you think!

 

[sparksburnout]

No................ but after 2 attempts and no reasonable response from the OP one does wonder if it actually exists ....................... and then the OP gets arsy .....................

Edit : I see you are in Notts - you didn't do the install!

Shush don't tell em.

 

[UNG]

This is getting a bit daft.
It's a basic mistake for a qualified electrician to design such a layout with RCBO's, MCB's and RCD's. It's devoid of competence. Makes you think!

The OP made the comment that he checked that the operative carrying out the work was part p qualified which suggests he was using a Domestic installer and not an Electrician.
Bad installation design comes from a lack of proper training and on the job experience and as time passes rather than increasing the skills needed the profit before skills organisations are diluting the skill set needed to provide problem free installations.
As the world get's more technologically advanced the solution to installing it and even the basics appears to be a reduction in the level of training where it is at the bare bones of competence

 

[ipf]

The OP made the comment that he checked that the operative carrying out the work was part p qualified which suggests he was using a Domestic installer and not an Electrician.
Bad installation design comes from a lack of proper training and on the job experience and as time passes rather than increasing the skills needed the profit before skills organisations are diluting the skill set needed to provide problem free installations.
As the world get's more technologically advanced the solution to installing it and even the basics appears to be a reduction in the level of training where it is at the bare bones of competence

Maybe I should have said 'for a domestic installer' rather than a 'qualified electrician'. It is pretty basic after all....then again, I suppose they are 'taught', these days, that, in most cases, all domestic circuits should be rcd protected, so, if some aren't, does it matter which?

 

[Gasinspect]

This is copied from an article NAPIT did on requirements for replacing consumer units:
Requirements of BS 7671

Replacing a consumer unit is classed as making an alteration and falls into the category of new work. This must be designed, erected and verified in accordance with BS 7671 as required by Regulation 110.1.2 (vi) and the safety of the existing installation must not be impaired, as stated in Regulation 610.4.

Regulation 132.16 states the requirements of additions and alterations. This means existing equipment must be adequate for the alteration. The earthing and bonding must also be adequate for the installation.

The design will also need to consider Regulation 415.1 for additional protection by 30mA RCD and consideration of how to protect against unwanted tripping of the RCD(s) will be needed to comply with the requirements of Section 314, Division of Installation.

Account must also be taken of the manufacturer’s instructions, as required by Regulations 134.1.1 and 510.3.

On completion, identification notices in accordance with Section 514 will need to be fitted and an EIC must be issued in accordance with the requirements of Sections 631 and 632, as stated in Regulation 631.1. Finally, the work must be notified.

Industry best practice

The customer should be encouraged to have an Electrical Installation Condition Report (EICR) carried out before replacing the CU. This will help the contractor to establish that the requirements of Regulation 132.16 have been met to allow the new CU installation to take place. Suitability of the existing earthing and bonding arrangements will be confirmed, as well as the suitability of the DNO’s equipment and meter tails, including polarity of the incoming supply.