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i hope your not saying that cost is the primary directive here...
-
Please checkout the new poll we will be pushing hard, and want some good stories to come out of this
result are public - you can change your vote over time, which might genuinely be the case from time to time.
- Thread starter keniff
- Start date
Search the forum,
no but it's a factor is it not
anyhow, under fault? where's ya other exposed conductive part? Most showers are plastic anyway!
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good point, well presented!
i stated that it was prudent to apply RCD protection....
If that doesn't sum up just how confusing things can get sometimes, I don't know what does.
How anyone with a semblance of intelligence can write 'for guidance only' then follow it up by using 'must' is beyond me.
Guess the expression 'mutually exclusive' is not one they have ever heard of :frown2:
This is the latest offering from Mira:
Electrical (checklist in detail)
1.
In a domestic installation, the rating of the electricity supplier's fuse and the consumer unit must be adequate for the additional demand. All Mira Sport electric showers are high power units, therefore it is essential to contact your electricity supplier to ensure that the supply is adequate for the product. Voltage drop due to local heavy demand will reduce the shower's performance.
2.
The Mira Sport must be earthed by connecting the supply-cable earth conductor to the earth terminal.
Supplementary bonding:
Within the bathroom or shower room, all accessible conductive parts of electrical equipment and extraneous conductive parts (metal parts) that are likely to introduce earth potential, must be electrically bonded to earth using a minimum cable size of 4.0 mm2 if the cable is not mechanically protected, (2.5 mm2 if mechanically protected).
3.
Supply cable - see opposite.
4. As a guide only
, and in accordance with BS 7671 we recommend close circuit protection: i.e. 7.5 kW & 9.0 kW = 40 Amp, 9.8 kW = 45 Amp
5.
A 30 mA Residual Current Device (RCD) MUST be included in the electrical circuit (BS7671). This may be part of the consumer unit or a separate unit.
A separate, permanently connected supply is taken from the consumer unit to the appliance through a double-pole switch, which has at least 3 mm contact separation. The switch can be a ceiling mounted pullcord type within the shower room or a wall mounted switch in an adjacent room.
6. DO NOT
twist the individual cable cores of either the live or neutral conductors, as this will prevent them from entering the terminal block.
7. DO NOT
exert strain on the terminal block. Ensure that the electrical connections are tightly screwed down.
8. DO NOT
turn on the electrical supply until the plumbing has been completed.
You may think that the sentance "A 30 mA Residual Current Device (RCD) MUST be included in the electrical circuit (BS7671)." is an instruction for you to fit an RCD.
It's not.
It's rather poorly informing you that BS7671 requires the circuit be provided with 30mA RCD protection.
Just the same as No. 2 is incorrectly informing you that Supplementary bonding is required, and how to provide it.
Would you or anyone else fit supplementary bonding if it were not required by BS7671, just because the Mira installation electric shower instructions tell you to?
Were you shocked when you found out
Discuss Replacement shower in the UK Electrical Forum area at ElectriciansForums.net
S
Sparkyphill
no but it's a factor is it not
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better rcd the shower then! Was just messing about with the bonding on a cast iron bath!
anyhow, under fault? where's ya other exposed conductive part? Most showers are plastic anyway!
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indeed it is....but the long and short of it is that anything you do will come back to bite ya if it aint rite...
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and if you attempt to get out of the bath?
D
Deleted member 26818
So in a situation where BS7671 does not require an RCD be fitted, a situation where for the purposes of an EICR would only warrent a code C3, common sense however dictates that an RCD be fitted?
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yes yes..we know that spin...but were talkin install here...not ECRs
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good point, well presented!
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dont forget as well will that voltage can `track` over wet/moist surfaces...
D
Deleted member 26818
No we are talking replacement of equipment, something that a MEIWC may be used to document.
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look....stop being pedantic spin...you knew what i meant...
D
Deleted member 26818
I'm sorry, but being a pedant I find it impossible to stop being pedantic.
I wonder if there's a book I can try to read?
I wonder if there's a book I can try to read?
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Installation booklet for redring shower no were does it state anything about RCD and on checking others it's a recommendation so maybe those stating it has to be they may like to read the instructions
http://www.redring.co.uk/media/uploads/555%202138%2001E%20REDRING%20EXPRESSIONS%20500S.pdf
http://www.redring.co.uk/media/uploads/555%202138%2001E%20REDRING%20EXPRESSIONS%20500S.pdf
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so when did i state that it had to be this...and it had to be that? try re-reading the posts....
i stated that it was prudent to apply RCD protection....
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I really like this thread. Hand bags at dawn lol :rofl:
These are the facts:-
A like for like change of a shower (or any appliance) unit without altering the cable does not have to be up graded to an rcd.
An EIC is not needed as you have done an installation or alteration of cables.
Manufacturer's can only "recommend" what we need to do under the 7671.
The 7671 is has clear as mud on like for like changes for a any circuit. Thats down to us as electricians to do what is best for the job we have to do.
End of the day in this situation the op dose not have to put the shower on an RCD, nor upgrade the bonding. But lets face it, we all would put it on an RCD and check out the bonding because we are professional electricians that like to sleep at night.
So the answer is = No you dont BUT yes we would.
These are the facts:-
A like for like change of a shower (or any appliance) unit without altering the cable does not have to be up graded to an rcd.
An EIC is not needed as you have done an installation or alteration of cables.
Manufacturer's can only "recommend" what we need to do under the 7671.
The 7671 is has clear as mud on like for like changes for a any circuit. Thats down to us as electricians to do what is best for the job we have to do.
End of the day in this situation the op dose not have to put the shower on an RCD, nor upgrade the bonding. But lets face it, we all would put it on an RCD and check out the bonding because we are professional electricians that like to sleep at night.
So the answer is = No you dont BUT yes we would.
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Lets be honest red ring are a joke anyway they probably missed that bit out to save on ink,
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Interesting debate here.
I guess manufacturers cannot say an RCD MUST be fitted because there is no legislation that allows them to make that statement. However the word 'recommended' is used in may of the examples given by Spin, possibly because it is the strongest word they can use.
You can see the scenario, where Tony Cable is acting as an expert witness in a court case telling the judge that an RCD would have saved the deceased's life had an RCD been fitted and the poor sparkys barrister trying to argue his way through BS7671 and Part P et al.
On a like for like replacement where there was no RCD fitted I would be saying to the customer that one should be added, but in the past when this situation has occurred I quote for the job on the basis of the 2 scenarios - with and without. I also make it clear in writing to the customer that I have informed them why it is advisable to fit an RCD, so when they don't and they are injured then there is a clear paper trail showing what they were told. I also note the MWC and my invoice appropriately. Full blown arse protection.
I guess manufacturers cannot say an RCD MUST be fitted because there is no legislation that allows them to make that statement. However the word 'recommended' is used in may of the examples given by Spin, possibly because it is the strongest word they can use.
You can see the scenario, where Tony Cable is acting as an expert witness in a court case telling the judge that an RCD would have saved the deceased's life had an RCD been fitted and the poor sparkys barrister trying to argue his way through BS7671 and Part P et al.
On a like for like replacement where there was no RCD fitted I would be saying to the customer that one should be added, but in the past when this situation has occurred I quote for the job on the basis of the 2 scenarios - with and without. I also make it clear in writing to the customer that I have informed them why it is advisable to fit an RCD, so when they don't and they are injured then there is a clear paper trail showing what they were told. I also note the MWC and my invoice appropriately. Full blown arse protection.
H
Heisenberg
If that doesn't sum up just how confusing things can get sometimes, I don't know what does.
How anyone with a semblance of intelligence can write 'for guidance only' then follow it up by using 'must' is beyond me.
Guess the expression 'mutually exclusive' is not one they have ever heard of :frown2:
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Just for interest I contacted Mira this morning asking them about their views on RCD protection with showers. I used the extract Spin (I think) posted from a Mira product guide. It seems that their view is that an RCD must be used. This is their reply:
Good morning Richard,
Many thanks for contacting us!
It appears you are referring to a product guide published before wiring regulations made fitment of an RCD a requirement. Attached to this reply is a pdf format of the product guide covering the Mira Alero, an electric shower we launched in 2008. You will see on page 9 of this guide under the electrical installation requirements, it states a residual current device MUST be included in the electrical circuit.
If you wish to respond to this email and require a prompt response, please reply ‘With History’ (i.e. attach any previous correspondence) or contact our Customer Service Department directly on 0844 571 5000. Our hours of business are 8:00am until 5:30pm Monday to Thursday, 8:00am until 5:00pm Friday, and 8:30am until 1:00pm on Saturdays.
Dave Merry
Technical Support Advisor
Kohler Mira Ltd.
Good morning Richard,
Many thanks for contacting us!
It appears you are referring to a product guide published before wiring regulations made fitment of an RCD a requirement. Attached to this reply is a pdf format of the product guide covering the Mira Alero, an electric shower we launched in 2008. You will see on page 9 of this guide under the electrical installation requirements, it states a residual current device MUST be included in the electrical circuit.
If you wish to respond to this email and require a prompt response, please reply ‘With History’ (i.e. attach any previous correspondence) or contact our Customer Service Department directly on 0844 571 5000. Our hours of business are 8:00am until 5:30pm Monday to Thursday, 8:00am until 5:00pm Friday, and 8:30am until 1:00pm on Saturdays.
Dave Merry
Technical Support Advisor
Kohler Mira Ltd.
J
JulianC
I suppose it's easy for a manufacturer to stipulate additional requirements, whether they are needed or not, when sat behind a desk in shirt and tie. I suspect the vast majority of these things are to cover their arse when their "hastily designed and built down to a cost in China pile o'crap" explodes. "No RCD fitted? Sorry sir, warranty invalid. Not our problem". Take fans - must be fused. If it's that bloody important, stick a fuse in your fan yourselves then, my cable and MCB are quite capable of withstanding any fault caused by your piece of tat thank you very much....
Also, who writes the instructions? Someone fully conversant with BS7671 and installation practices and who has given proper consideration to what is put in there? Or some office monkey who read somewhere once that all new bathroom circuits must be RCD protected and thought right, I'll stick that in me instructions and copy and paste them into every other set of instructions we come up with....
....and if their dodgy photocopied A4 pamphlet supercedes my expensive big green book with lots of big words in it, I want my money back.
Also, who writes the instructions? Someone fully conversant with BS7671 and installation practices and who has given proper consideration to what is put in there? Or some office monkey who read somewhere once that all new bathroom circuits must be RCD protected and thought right, I'll stick that in me instructions and copy and paste them into every other set of instructions we come up with....
....and if their dodgy photocopied A4 pamphlet supercedes my expensive big green book with lots of big words in it, I want my money back.
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This is the page 9 Mira refer too:
2. Electrical
In a domestic installation, the rating of the electricity supplier’s fuse and the • consumer unit must be adequate for the additional demand. All Mira electric showers are high power units, it is essential to contact your electricity supplier to ensure that the supply is adequate for the product.Voltage drop due to local heavy demand will reduce the shower’s • performance.The appliance • MUST BEEARTHED by connecting the supply-cable earth conductor to the earth terminal. SUPPLEMENTARYBONDING:• Within the bathroom or shower room, all accessible conductive parts of electrical equipment and extraneous conductive parts (metal parts) that are likely to introduce earth potential, must be electrically bonded to earth using a minimum cable size of 4.0 mm• if the cable is not mechanically protected, (2.5 mm• if mechanically protected).The minimum cable size (cross-sectional area) required should be in • accordance with BS 7671.As a guide only, and in accordance with BS 7671 we recommend close circuit • protection: i.e. 9.8 kW = 45 AmpA 30 mA Residual Current Device (RCD) • MUST be included in the electrical circuit. This may be part of the consumer unit or a separate unit.A separate, permanently connected supply must be taken from the consumer • unit to the appliance through a double-pole switch, which has at least 3 mm of contact separation. The switch can be a ceiling mounted pullcord type within the shower room, or a wall mounted switch in an adjacent room.DONOT• twist the individual cable cores of either the live or neutral conductors, as this will prevent them from entering the terminal block.DONOT• exert strain on the terminal block. Ensure that the electrical connections are tightly screwed down.DONOT• turn-on the electrical supply until the plumbing has been completed.
2. Electrical
In a domestic installation, the rating of the electricity supplier’s fuse and the • consumer unit must be adequate for the additional demand. All Mira electric showers are high power units, it is essential to contact your electricity supplier to ensure that the supply is adequate for the product.Voltage drop due to local heavy demand will reduce the shower’s • performance.The appliance • MUST BEEARTHED by connecting the supply-cable earth conductor to the earth terminal. SUPPLEMENTARYBONDING:• Within the bathroom or shower room, all accessible conductive parts of electrical equipment and extraneous conductive parts (metal parts) that are likely to introduce earth potential, must be electrically bonded to earth using a minimum cable size of 4.0 mm• if the cable is not mechanically protected, (2.5 mm• if mechanically protected).The minimum cable size (cross-sectional area) required should be in • accordance with BS 7671.As a guide only, and in accordance with BS 7671 we recommend close circuit • protection: i.e. 9.8 kW = 45 AmpA 30 mA Residual Current Device (RCD) • MUST be included in the electrical circuit. This may be part of the consumer unit or a separate unit.A separate, permanently connected supply must be taken from the consumer • unit to the appliance through a double-pole switch, which has at least 3 mm of contact separation. The switch can be a ceiling mounted pullcord type within the shower room, or a wall mounted switch in an adjacent room.DONOT• twist the individual cable cores of either the live or neutral conductors, as this will prevent them from entering the terminal block.DONOT• exert strain on the terminal block. Ensure that the electrical connections are tightly screwed down.DONOT• turn-on the electrical supply until the plumbing has been completed.
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- 897
Spinlondon spin on this lol 
rrr:
Just for interest I contacted Mira this morning asking them about their views on RCD protection with showers. I used the extract Spin (I think) posted from a Mira product guide. It seems that their view is that an RCD must be used
Read more: http://www.electriciansforums.net/e...69843-replacement-shower-5.html#ixzz2H1ME8P4L
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Thanks richy3333 for previous post
rrr:Just for interest I contacted Mira this morning asking them about their views on RCD protection with showers. I used the extract Spin (I think) posted from a Mira product guide. It seems that their view is that an RCD must be used
Read more: http://www.electriciansforums.net/e...69843-replacement-shower-5.html#ixzz2H1ME8P4L
- - - Updated - - -
Thanks richy3333 for previous post
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- 5,807
It would be interesting to find out what their expert opinion would be for a like for like replacement and not a new install?
I remember reading a best practice guild on this matter or on the ESC web site and that said for a like for like shower replacement an rcd dose not have to be fitted but it would be advisable to do so. I would never do a shower change without installing a rcd or rcbo and I''m sure all of us on here would do the same. If the customer wont pay for it then just walk away from the quote.
I remember reading a best practice guild on this matter or on the ESC web site and that said for a like for like shower replacement an rcd dose not have to be fitted but it would be advisable to do so. I would never do a shower change without installing a rcd or rcbo and I''m sure all of us on here would do the same. If the customer wont pay for it then just walk away from the quote.
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This Q & A is taen from the ESC web site:-
"Q2.10If I replace an existing electric shower, do I now have to provide RCD protection for it?
No, unless RCD protection is required by the manufacturer’s installation instructions, or a new circuit is required (to provide for increased load, for example).
Regulation number(s)
2. Alterations and additions in domestic and similar premises : Electrical Safety Council
Q 2.10
"Q2.10If I replace an existing electric shower, do I now have to provide RCD protection for it?
No, unless RCD protection is required by the manufacturer’s installation instructions, or a new circuit is required (to provide for increased load, for example).
Regulation number(s)
- 134.1.1
- 510.3"
2. Alterations and additions in domestic and similar premises : Electrical Safety Council
Q 2.10
M
MDJ
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MDJ lol I don't think spin has read it yet :13:
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They are in all good furniture stores, as rcd's are in all good compliant shower installations lol
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They are in all good furniture stores, as rcd's are in all good compliant shower installations lol
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They are in all good furniture stores, as rcd's are in all good compliant shower installations lol
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Well if it was in the box it would be way to easy. Where's the challenge in that?
O
Octopus
This is so so so boring now. I'm off for a (rcd protected) shower. lol
D
Deleted member 26818
Spinlondon spin on this lol
Just for interest I contacted Mira this morning asking them about their views on RCD protection with showers. I used the extract Spin (I think) posted from a Mira product guide. It seems that their view is that an RCD must be used
Read more: http://www.electriciansforums.net/e...69843-replacement-shower-5.html#ixzz2H1ME8P4L
- - - Updated - - -
Thanks richy3333 for previous post
This is the latest offering from Mira:
Electrical (checklist in detail)
1.
In a domestic installation, the rating of the electricity supplier's fuse and the consumer unit must be adequate for the additional demand. All Mira Sport electric showers are high power units, therefore it is essential to contact your electricity supplier to ensure that the supply is adequate for the product. Voltage drop due to local heavy demand will reduce the shower's performance.
2.
The Mira Sport must be earthed by connecting the supply-cable earth conductor to the earth terminal.
Supplementary bonding:
Within the bathroom or shower room, all accessible conductive parts of electrical equipment and extraneous conductive parts (metal parts) that are likely to introduce earth potential, must be electrically bonded to earth using a minimum cable size of 4.0 mm2 if the cable is not mechanically protected, (2.5 mm2 if mechanically protected).
3.
Supply cable - see opposite.
4. As a guide only
, and in accordance with BS 7671 we recommend close circuit protection: i.e. 7.5 kW & 9.0 kW = 40 Amp, 9.8 kW = 45 Amp
5.
A 30 mA Residual Current Device (RCD) MUST be included in the electrical circuit (BS7671). This may be part of the consumer unit or a separate unit.
A separate, permanently connected supply is taken from the consumer unit to the appliance through a double-pole switch, which has at least 3 mm contact separation. The switch can be a ceiling mounted pullcord type within the shower room or a wall mounted switch in an adjacent room.
6. DO NOT
twist the individual cable cores of either the live or neutral conductors, as this will prevent them from entering the terminal block.
7. DO NOT
exert strain on the terminal block. Ensure that the electrical connections are tightly screwed down.
8. DO NOT
turn on the electrical supply until the plumbing has been completed.
You may think that the sentance "A 30 mA Residual Current Device (RCD) MUST be included in the electrical circuit (BS7671)." is an instruction for you to fit an RCD.
It's not.
It's rather poorly informing you that BS7671 requires the circuit be provided with 30mA RCD protection.
Just the same as No. 2 is incorrectly informing you that Supplementary bonding is required, and how to provide it.
Would you or anyone else fit supplementary bonding if it were not required by BS7671, just because the Mira installation electric shower instructions tell you to?
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Even I'm bored of this one now
S
Stroppy
Last year I found I had been using my electric shower (8.5kw Mira) with no earth AND no RCD protection for the last ten years!
Were you shocked when you found out
S
Stroppy
Having uncovered all of the other appalling workmanship my half-witted little monkey-man of a builder did (for it was he who did the electrics too), I wasn't surprised at all. Thankfully I wasn't shocked either.
Reply to Replacement shower in the UK Electrical Forum area at ElectriciansForums.net
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