Ross Kemp and the Armed please

[Midwest]

Back on topic, found this piece in The Guardian;

UK police chiefs discuss officers routinely carrying guns - https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/may/17/uk-police-chiefs-discuss-officers-routinely-carrying-guns

Seems if they did go ahead with arming of police, they will do it on the cheap. Current courses for AFO's are about 7 weeks, not the 2 weeks suggested in Mr Chesterman paper.

Not withstanding the 7 week course is for both hand guns & carbines etc; and also currently monthly training whereas the suggestion is just two days per year including refresher training & qualification shoots. Dunno what Chief is going to sign up for that, without substantially increasing their public liability cover.

 

[elsparko]

So I've just watched the first episode. What can I say other than scary times, it was based in the Midlands this week, it is frightening how many guns are on our streets and how many youngsters are prepared to use them.
Talking to several Armed officers it became clear that they believe all police officers should be armed with at very least a sidearm.

I constantly cling onto the hope that we are a better country than most and it scares me that if all officers are armed we will end up like America, having said that Ross raised a good point by saying why should we expect our police to respond to armed criminals whilst not armed themselves.
I don't know if they should all be armed but I realistically think it will end up that way.
What are your thoughts!!!

arm the police and the "criminals" will seek to defend themselves to the same standard, not all police officers are good people, nor are they all of the mental capability to carry a firearm, let alone discharge it upon a human.

 

[elsparko]

american criminal system promotes having a shootout with the police, who wants to go to jail for 10 consecutive life sentences? might aswell take your chances and blast away

 

[Midwest]

not all police officers are good people.

Thats a kinda bold statement. Not withstanding we select are cops from within are community. Some ne'er do wells do get through the selection process, but the bad'ens soon fall over themselves.

 

[elsparko]

Thats a kinda bold statement. Not withstanding we select are cops from within are community. Some ne'er do wells do get through the selection process, but the bad'ens soon fall over themselves.

"we" dont select them, whoever puts themselves forward and passes the very basic entry tests can become a police officer

 

[elsparko]

Hundreds of police officers convicted - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-33635962

 

[Nigel]

"we" dont select them, whoever puts themselves forward and passes the very basic entry tests can become a police officer

What do you think is the basic entry test?

 

[elsparko]

What do you think is the basic entry test?

a watered down version of the military entry process, which is easy peasy, basic fitness examination and teamwork capabilities etc.

the police are barely responsible with what they have currently, no need to arm them and make the problem 100x worse

a builder i worked for had a son who played football for a living, but because he didnt do as a police officer ordered in an instant he got his arm shattered by a baton on a night out in a quiet village

most people in the police can barely handle the power they have without getting all uppity about themselves, the good ones are the least common denominator

i dont even pay attention to the glorified security guards that roam around in panda cars, if it isnt traffic or undercover police they literally dont matter.

 

[elsparko]

A 2012 report into police corruption in England and Wales by the IPCC noted the prevalence of the serious offences referred to them from 2008 to 2011; perverting the course of justice (33%), theft or fraud (30%), abuse of authority (15%), unauthorised disclosure of information (13%), and misuse of systems (9%).[212] The IPCC received 837 referrals during this period, mostly from UK citizens.[212] 47 cases were referred for prosecution, resulting in ten prison sentences, one suspended sentence and one fine.[212] As a result of all investigations into the corruption and misconduct of UK police and staff between 1 April 2013 and 31 March 2014, 134 police officers and staff were dismissed, while a further 711 faced disciplinary sanctions.[210] 103 Metropolitan Police officers were also suspended during this period.[213] Offences included drug related offences, bribery, theft or fraud, sexual misconduct, and information disclosure, where information disclosure and theft or fraud were the most common offences.[210][213] The Directorate of Professional standards considers the "exploitation of staff through inappropriate relationships with journalists, private investigators and criminals" the biggest threat to police integrity.[213]

 

[Nigel]

a watered down version of the military entry process, which is easy peasy, basic fitness examination and teamwork capabilities etc.

the police are barely responsible with what they have currently, no need to arm them and make the problem 100x worse

a builder i worked for had a son who played football for a living, but because he didnt do as a police officer ordered in an instant he got his arm shattered by a baton on a night out in a quiet village

most people in the police can barely handle the power they have without getting all uppity about themselves, the good ones are the least common denominator

i dont even pay attention to the glorified security guards that roam around in panda cars, if it isnt traffic or undercover police they literally dont matter.

Yep you have no idea.

 

[elsparko]

Yep you have no idea.

i have more idea than you, i can guarantee that, you want to arm every single police officer straight out of training, yeah there wont be any problems with that eh

you obviously have little concept on how offense/defense works, or human nature.

why has the human race being producing bigger and better defenses and weapons? is it because their enemy got bigger and better defences and the cycle continues?

i know 3 dirty coppers personally, all still in the force, one is cid

 

[elsparko]

and whilst were on it, the biggest dealer of weed in the city , his dad is only the chief of police! when his house got raided no charges! hmmmm fishhhhhhhhhhhhhhy

 

[elsparko]

Conflict escalation - Wikipedia - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conflict_escalation

you shouldnt bother to argue on a subject i know far more about than you.

The conflict escalation curve is a concept created by Michael N. Nagler.[citation needed] The conflict escalation curve proposes that the intensity of a conflict is directly related to how far dehumanization has proceeded. In other words, conflicts escalate in the degree to which parties dehumanize one another (or one party is dehumanizing the other).

 

[elsparko]

i do agree there should be more dedicated armed units, but not to give the fodder that just passed their training weapons, whats the first thing a 5ft odd female is going to do vs some roided up guy raising his voice a little? probably pull that weapon on him and escalate the situation.

 

[elsparko]

this is an example of the type of officer you want armed with firearms! uneblievable!

 

[Midwest]

"we" dont select them, whoever puts themselves forward and passes the very basic entry tests can become a police officer

Uummphh can't sleep.

We is the Royal 'We'. Police officers are selected from within our community, not from some far off planet. Consequently they come with their own views, opinions & traits from the section of society they originate from.

Entry is a long process, and eventually there will be only three routes. One being an apprenticeship, the others degree based, not something I quite agree with. It is not just taking a simple test, aka open book multi choice exam such as the current 18th. The process is designed to weed out the inappropriate. Costs a lot of money to train a cop, why waste tax payers money, on someone your gonna have to kick out in time. That said, no process is failproof, and some 'bad ens' get through.

I agree with you that even the best of cops can assume an authoritarian personality or hubris attitude. But thats a unpalatable human personality, not a police officer one.

You've quoted lots of links on police corruption, by my calculations, it amounts to 0.25% of police officers in England & Wales in the last three years. One of the reports you cited said 'Police forces have made significant progress in putting in place the processes to prevent and tackle corruption, according to a report launched today by Her Majesty’s Inspectorate of Constabulary (HMIC), and this is in part due to strong leadership being demonstrated by senior police officers'.

Your welcome to your views elsparko, but if you were a cop, I'll reported you to senior officers, like I have done to the mods about some of your posts in other threads. Thats how it works. If you know bent coppers, why don't you do your public duty & report them?

The cops use conflict escalation, except they call it conflict resolution. And it starts off with officer presence, noting that some people (and I'm not just referring to the low life's of society), find just the very presence of a uniformed officer unsettling.

And lastly, I agree with you to arm all police officers would be foolhardy.

Whilst the percentage of officers prepared to carry a firearm has risen in recent times, the percentage 'who believe they and colleagues should be routinely armed' is still low;
Majority of police officers are prepared to carry guns, survey finds - https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/sep/22/one-in-three-uk-officers-want-all-police-to-carry-guns-survey-finds

You might note, that only 23% of police officers, replied to that survey.

See if I can get some sleep now.

 

[FatAlan]

Interesting that there is now a majority of officers wanting to be armed. Probably a relection of the lack of officers and back up available. After 30 years in the job I would still have preferred not to be armed but then it’s a while since I worked up in the smoke. There does however need to be more specialist firearms officers out there especially in areas with higher incidences of gang and gun crime. Over the years I have worked with plenty of numpties that I wouldn’t let near a firearm or even the uniform for that matter. In my view they won’t arm all officers due to cost. If I was firearmed trained I would at least want some sort of training on a weekly basis to stay familiar and as safe as possible with the kit ...that ain’t going to happen.

 

[Midwest]

Training for AFO's, as far as I'm aware is monthly. Qualification shoots were yearly, I think.

 

[elsparko]

Uummphh can't sleep.

We is the Royal 'We'. Police officers are selected from within our community, not from some far off planet. Consequently they come with their own views, opinions & traits from the section of society they originate from.

Entry is a long process, and eventually there will be only three routes. One being an apprenticeship, the others degree based, not something I quite agree with. It is not just taking a simple test, aka open book multi choice exam such as the current 18th. The process is designed to weed out the inappropriate. Costs a lot of money to train a cop, why waste tax payers money, on someone your gonna have to kick out in time. That said, no process is failproof, and some 'bad ens' get through.

I agree with you that even the best of cops can assume an authoritarian personality or hubris attitude. But thats a unpalatable human personality, not a police officer one.

You've quoted lots of links on police corruption, by my calculations, it amounts to 0.25% of police officers in England & Wales in the last three years. One of the reports you cited said 'Police forces have made significant progress in putting in place the processes to prevent and tackle corruption, according to a report launched today by Her Majesty’s Inspectorate of Constabulary (HMIC), and this is in part due to strong leadership being demonstrated by senior police officers'.

Your welcome to your views elsparko, but if you were a cop, I'll reported you to senior officers, like I have done to the mods about some of your posts in other threads. Thats how it works. If you know bent coppers, why don't you do your public duty & report them?

The cops use conflict escalation, except they call it conflict resolution. And it starts off with officer presence, noting that some people (and I'm not just referring to the low life's of society), find just the very presence of a uniformed officer unsettling.

And lastly, I agree with you to arm all police officers would be foolhardy.

Whilst the percentage of officers prepared to carry a firearm has risen in recent times, the percentage 'who believe they and colleagues should be routinely armed' is still low;
Majority of police officers are prepared to carry guns, survey finds - https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/sep/22/one-in-three-uk-officers-want-all-police-to-carry-guns-survey-finds

You might note, that only 23% of police officers, replied to that survey.

See if I can get some sleep now.

why would i report them? they have done nothing to me, im not a snake

you seem to live in a perfect world, everyone has a price, even police officers, that uniform doesnt somehow make them a superior moral being.

 

[elsparko]

Interesting that there is now a majority of officers wanting to be armed. Probably a relection of the lack of officers and back up available. After 30 years in the job I would still have preferred not to be armed but then it’s a while since I worked up in the smoke. There does however need to be more specialist firearms officers out there especially in areas with higher incidences of gang and gun crime. Over the years I have worked with plenty of numpties that I wouldn’t let near a firearm or even the uniform for that matter. In my view they won’t arm all officers due to cost. If I was firearmed trained I would at least want some sort of training on a weekly basis to stay familiar and as safe as possible with the kit ...that ain’t going to happen.

the training is simple, dont point the business end of the weapon at anything you arent prepared to fire on

how long till police officers get targeted for their service weapons when armed?