school caretaker worries

[jannadog]

I have a question on electrical work in schools.

I'm a caretaker in a school with over 1500 kids in West Sussex and recently the school has employed a maintenance man that says he is a qualified electrician...

I'm not sure he is as I know using insulation tape on live wires and poking them in holes in walls still live is wrong, or above a celling nothing is ever locked off he seems to know quite a lot about electric.

I have asked if he is qualified but I'm now In fear of losing my job.

On 3 or 4 occasions in the last 6 months he has been cutting through live wires. There have been various bangs and crashes and I am frightened to work around him I just want to know if he's qualified or not or if there's anything that could be done, how can you know if he's qualified .

thank you
John Smith

 

[westward10]

Are they under your supervision.

 

[Strima]

Keep a diary of incidents and report what you see to your management. If he is indeed working in contravention of the EAWR 1989 then he needs to be stopped.

If he is working live and leaving live conductors incorrectly terminated then this needs to be stopped.

You should not be in fear of losing your job, if anything you should be encouraged to ensure that there's a safe environment for students and staff, it sounds like his practices are dangerous and need to be stopped.

 

[Pete999]

I have a question on electrical work in schools.

I'm a caretaker in a school with over 1500 kids in West Sussex and recently the school has employed a maintenance man that says he is a qualified electrician...

I'm not sure he is as I know using insulation tape on live wires and poking them in holes in walls still live is wrong, or above a celling nothing is ever locked off he seems to know quite a lot about electric.

I have asked if he is qualified but I'm now In fear of losing my job.

On 3 or 4 occasions in the last 6 months he has been cutting through live wires. There have been various bangs and crashes and I am frightened to work around him I just want to know if he's qualified or not or if there's anything that could be done, how can you know if he's qualified .

thank you
John Smith

Were you present in any way during the interview stages? who was / is responsible for employing this Person? qualified or not he shouldn't be doing what you describle.
Address tour concerns to your Line Management team, asking politely for a response from them, if you have already asked someone if he is qualified and competent, and you then get threatened with dismissal,I would love to be a fly on the wall at the Resultant Employment Tribunal for unfair dismissal, you would undoubtably bring against your Employer, put you concerns in a letter or email keeping copies for yourself.
Anyone stupid enough to sack you for that needs sacking themselves, as to your last question only the hiring Officer or your HR will have the answers. although in my experience of HR they wouldn't know if he was qualified if it bit them in the rear end. Sorry for the ramble

 

[jannadog]

I have reported it to the chief executive ( whistle blowing thing). took pictures and video . but I'm feal like I done the wrong thing as iv gone about reporting it the wrong way or something they said ... I asked if he's qualified and was told nothing . I'm just a caretaker I don't say much as I don't know the law that's why I asked you here . thank you for your reassurance I will show pictures once it's over . im not back till Monday I nope it's been made safe ..

 

[Pete999]

I have reported it to the chief executive ( whistle blowing thing). took pictures and video . but I'm feal like I done the wrong thing as iv gone about reporting it the wrong way or something they said ... I asked if he's qualified and was told nothing . I'm just a caretaker I don't say much as I don't know the law that's why I asked you here . thank you for your reassurance I will show pictures once it's over . im not back till Monday I nope it's been made safe ..

Just inform someone in Top Management, in writing or email, they have to respond, I wouldn't do any Detective work off your own back, could be construed as victimisation on your part. Write the letter and stand back. Copy the H&S Officer in as well, please tell me you have one.

 

[jannadog]

I did point out where he had worked and have put in jobs request that where not finished I kept bring told he had a lot to do and to do my job not his but we have children in the school and they poke and prod things all the time ..

it was only a few years ago the por man died in the sports field not to far from here ...

sort of wishing I kept my self to my self ...

thank you for pointing out the work regulations 1989 this I can see I was correct . my school said I should of done it sooner and by email . I just do a few odd jobs where I can clean toilets bit of painting ..

 

[Devonchris]

You can't be dismissed for whistle blowing. If you have genuine concerns for safety then you are quite right to raise them. (See below)

Did you, by any chance, apply for the maintenance job and failed to get it due to lack of qualifications?

(3) What protection does the law provide to whistleblowers?
Under the Employment Rights Act 1996 if an employee “blows the whistle” they will receive protection from being dismissed or victimised (ie by being subjected to a detriment) because of their whistleblowing. This protection is a day one right. A whistleblowing dismissal is automatically unfair and an employee does not need two years’ continuity of service to bring such a claim in the employment tribunal. Compensation is also uncapped. In relation to victimisation, a tribunal can award compensation for financial loss and injury to feelings (in the same way as discrimination claims).

The whistleblower will lose any statutory protection if they commit an offence when making the disclosure.

(4) What qualifies as a disclosure?
The information must be in the public interest and serious and not merely a trivial matter. This may include: criminal activity; miscarriages of justice; danger to health and safety; damage to the environment; failure to comply with any legal obligation or regulatory requirement; bribery, financial fraud or mismanagement.

The public interest test can be satisfied even where the basis of the disclosure is wrong or there was no public interest in the disclosure being made, provided that the individual’s belief that the disclosure was made in the public interest was objectively reasonable.

 

[Pete999]

Just inform someone in Top Management, in writing or email, they have to respond, I wouldn't do any Detective work off your own back, could be construed as victimisation on your part. Write the letter and stand back. Copy the H&S Officer in as well, please tell me you have one.

Devonchris's Post is worth a look Mate. I knew there was something about Whistle blowing doing the rounds well done Chris

 

[jannadog]

no i have been here years and I'm very happy as a caretaker .

I'm not a builder or anything like that. it's just we had a qualified electrician for years doing things by the book did not even think much about it untill now . iv had such a stressful tim my wife said iv been foolish and should just do my job ...

I'm getting on now and I suppose finding a new job will be hard .
but I don't want to see people getting hurt ..

 

[buzzlightyear]

I'm not a builder or anything like that. it's just we had a qualified electrician for years doing things by the book did not even think much about it untill now . iv had such a stressful tim my wife said iv been foolish and should just do my job ...

I would agree with your wifey ,if you hear a bang from a distance keep a broom handle handy just in case he needs your attention ,lol.

 

[Devonchris]

Ok. Thanks for the response.

In "just doing my job" you have a responsibility under H&S law for any "Act" or "Omission" so if you are aware of a potential danger you can't just ignore it. Also you can't be victimised for bringing it to a supervisors attention.

However, as with all employer disputes, the law cannot dictate the sort of atmosphere you will then have to work under and this can make the work environment difficult and stressful. So think carefully about how you deal with this.

Perhaps you could invite the new guy for a drink after work, on the excuse of getting to know each other better. Then when you're both relaxed mention your concerns in terms of how maybe he doesn't realise how inquisitive the little brats can be, and how maybe some of his tempory works could be a danger. Don't get him on the back foot and don't mention qualifications.

In all of this diplomacy is the key. Don't be the one who gets offside. And keep a contemporaneous diary of your actions/ discussions with anyone about this. Then be happy that you have done your job. Then start every day remembering how you felt on your first day in the job and just get on being the best handyman in the world.

Good luck.

 

[Midwest]

no i have been here years and I'm very happy as a caretaker .

I'm not a builder or anything like that. it's just we had a qualified electrician for years doing things by the book did not even think much about it untill now . iv had such a stressful tim my wife said iv been foolish and should just do my job ...

I'm getting on now and I suppose finding a new job will be hard .
but I don't want to see people getting hurt ..

Where do all these suggestions coming from, that you are likely to lose your job over this?

I can understand the real world realisation that some might think you are trying to get someone into trouble, but as already said the law here is clear and behind you. Even your own school have said you should of bought to someone's attention sooner.

I can understand your wifes concerns, but you have done the right thing, this bloke sounds dangerous. So who is suggesting you might lose your job?

 

[jannadog]

I did try speaking to him a few months ago about the new classroom not having emergency lights or exit lighting . (I used to test this every month but I was told not to do it anymore) and that's when I was told to do my job .... ( emergency lighting inspection is now not done ). I have made notes on this sort of thing but they said why did I not follow it up . but what do I do Line manager said it's ok they have it in hand ... I open the school and last to leave every day so I don't know how the test can be done there are 270 emergency lights in the school . this is why I asked the question . iv tested the lights for 10 years and every year a full 3 hour test is performed by 3 electrician doing 3 hour test . it takes 3 days ...

I just do the bins and toilets now and lock the school . .

I know I'm right in what iv done and now have to live with that .
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I'm scared I'll loose my job becas 3 people on the team I'm in have gone most of them with 5 to 10 years

we are in a multi academy trust now and everything is cut to the bobe. I wish I could say more but the HSE will be my last call if they have a go at me ...

 

[Midwest]

I work in a care home, similar place with vulnerable people, as a maintenance person. I would say about 60% of my time is spent on compliance. It’s all recorded on a compliance management software. Any non compliance, gets emailed to someone.

I can’t see a County Council being any less complaint.

I believe there’s a charity concern, that assist with guidance on ‘whistle blowing’.

Just Googled it Protect - Speak up stop harm. | The Whistleblowing Charity - https://protect-advice.org.uk/ Perhaps give them a ring.

 

[Devonchris]

I can’t see a County Council being any less complaint.

It's not county council Westie, it's an academy trust. The more they can shave off the running costs then the more they can pay themselves.

See this article (not a paper I normally read, I might add)

Tally of £150,000 school academy bosses jumps by 20%

Six-figure salaries at 988 charitable trusts despite increase in deficits

www.theguardian.com

 

[FatAlan]

As above mate. Keep a diary of what you have seen. You’ve reported it now. I doubt you will get any come back as School Academy’s get plenty of bad press and I’m sure the fat cat directors won’t want any more....if you know what I mean! . I take it that there is nothing immediately dangerous that needs sorting before the kids come back?

 

[Midwest]

It's not county council Westie, it's an academy trust. The more they can shave off the running costs then the more they can pay themselves.

See this article (not a paper I normally read, I might add)

Tally of £150,000 school academy bosses jumps by 20%

Six-figure salaries at 988 charitable trusts despite increase in deficits

www.theguardian.com

They’re still inspected by Ofsted, and like my not-for-profit charity organisation, compliance is still a big thing.

 

[David Prosser]

I just do the bins and toilets now and lock the school . .

I know I'm right in what iv done and now have to live with that .

Much better to know you've done the right thing than to sit around regretting you did nothing. You are not this persons employer, manager or supervisor and not an electrician this means you can't take on the responsibility for what may well be shoddy fixes and poor working practices.

Good on you for raising these concerns with the people who should be responsible for it.

 

[jannadog]

hello everyone . I have an update for you as it's been over a month....IV HEARD NOTHING...

Apparently an expert has been in and said the work is "shoddy ". but safe . today a kid cut through a cable on a machine is sparked and then started to burn . the RCD did NOT trip out . now I have emailed the chief executive who had the expert report yesterday...I have been told it dose not need a certificate of completion as the rooms not finished .... bull ----. kids are in the room the rooms are finished...

is it time to report this to the HSE

I have to be honist I'm scared to touch anything I have a AC voltage detector on me at all times...

 

[Pete999]

hello everyone . I have an update fort you as it's been over a month....IV HEARD NOTHING...

Apparently an expert has been in as said the work is "shoddy ". but safe . today a kit cut through a cable on a machine is sparked and then started to burn . the RCD did NOT trip out . now I have emailed the chief executive who had the report yesterday...I have been told it dose not need a certificate of completion as the rooms not finished .... bull ----. kids are in the room the rooms are finished...

is it time to report this to the HSE

I have to be honist I'm scared to touch anything I have a AC voltage detector on me at all times...

It would be helpful to know the extent of the works carried out, the excuse the room hasn't been finished is in my opinion BS if the electrics are done and dusted then a cert IS required, advice if you are concerned enough to raise your concerns on here then maybe a call to the HSE would be required afterall if you are the responsible person I would do so rather than try and explain why you didn't believe me it's no picnic, been there and done that. If you are genuinely concerned and explain carefully your concerns I can't see the HSE chastising you. Good luck, May be get some independent advice first though, from an expert.











\cNT

 

[Lister1987]

hello everyone . I have an update for you as it's been over a month....IV HEARD NOTHING...

Apparently an expert has been in and said the work is "shoddy ". but safe . today a kid cut through a cable on a machine is sparked and then started to burn . the RCD did NOT trip out . now I have emailed the chief executive who had the expert report yesterday...I have been told it dose not need a certificate of completion as the rooms not finished .... bull ----. kids are in the room the rooms are finished...

is it time to report this to the HSE

I have to be honist I'm scared to touch anything I have a AC voltage detector on me at all times...

Ask for a copy of the report so that you can understand, operationally speaking, what has gone on, then get a second opinion in. Was the near-miss reported to the health and safety officer for the organisation?

 

[jannadog]

i do not know what has been done it said . iv had to go to HR and ask . I'll update you when I know more . and thank you

 

[Pete999]

i do not know what has been done it said . iv had to go to HR and ask . I'll update you when I know more . and thank you

HR (Human Remains) will only reiterate what the CEO said, and he probably knows diddly squat about Electrical Safety. only relating to what he has been told, what does the H&S officer have to say about this? or is that a daft question??

 

[Pete999]

HR (Human Remains) will only reiterate what the CEO said, and he probably knows diddly squat about Electrical Safety. only relating to what he has been told, what does the H&S officer have to say about this? or is that a daft question??

With all due respect to School Caretakers every where, they do a thankless job and to try and pile extra duties on to them, which many are not, through any fault of their making qualified to undertake, don't Schools these days employ a Facility Manager? of oversea contractors or technical work, I' ready and willing to advise. or even accept a post as Facility Manager, as long as I can use the Staff room, I'll bring me own Sarnies, School Dinner surely, aint improved that much have they????? lol

 

[jannadog]

can you tell me if this is true it's regarding what iv been told on above ....

"MCB appears to be functioning correctly. Arcing cable could be caused by high voltage on the neutral return. No evidence of short circuit."

This was the 240v cable that was arcking and smoking in 2 weeks ago on Monday the school want to see me at 8am to tell me what they are going to do .... the chief executive is also the head of health and safety.. I'm feeling ---- right now as this is being brushed under the carpet...

im really sorry to go on but this is the only place I can talk about it

 

[westward10]

You say the cable was damaged which may have resulted in damage to a conductor which reduced its csa or severed it completely. This may result in overheating from arcing and hence a smoking cable, this fault would probably not trip an mcb or rcd.

 

[Pete999]

can you tell me if this is true it's regarding what iv been told on above ....

"MCB appears to be functioning correctly. Arcing cable could be caused by high voltage on the neutral return. No evidence of short circuit."

This was the 240v cable that was arcking and smoking in 2 weeks ago ☝☝☝ on Monday the school want to see me at 8am to tell me what they are going to do .... the chief executive is also the head of health and safety.. I'm feeling ---- right now as this is being brushed under the carpet...

im really sorry to go on but this is the only place I can talk about it

Difficult with the CEO being H&S Officers well, how was this situation transmitted to you?
Confliction of interests springs to mind, have you a H&S POLICY, is it posted for all to see, are visitors subject to a briefing before they enter the site? or do they follow their own H&S rules? sounds like a right boggers muddle, backside covering at panic stations, you need urgent help Mate, from a H&S professional, BS rules it seems at your place of employment.

 

[DPG]

No idea what a brother's middle is but I like the sound if it.

I agree with Pete999, there's a definite conflict of interest going on there.

 

[Pete999]

No idea what a brother's middle is but I like the sound if it.

I agree with Pete999, there's a definite conflict of interest going on there.

Bogger's muddle Mate

 

[westward10]

I suggest you wait until the meeting on Monday to see what is going to happen as it is no good assuming peoples intentions until you know for sure.

 

[DPG]

Bogger's muddle Mate

Auto blooming correct.

 

[Pete999]

Bogger's muddle Mate

You have to ask yourself Mate is, H&S taken seriously in the OPs' School ? sounds like NO IT ISN'T more an A--- covering exercise.

 

[westward10]

You have to ask yourself Mate is, H&S taken seriously in the OPs' School ? sounds like NO IT ISN'T more an A--- covering exercise.

Easy to jump to conclusions things happen no matter how much H&S policy you have in place. We are human not programmed robots.

 

[jannadog]

I will tell you what's what after the meeting . I'm asking for his 18th edition certificate and and completed work certificate... I can't tell you everything because I have an email ready to send to HSE.... I gave spoken to a HSE officer outside of Sussex and I do not want to say anything that might jeopardize anything ..... I'm asking to see the report I will make notes on who and when and if like to ask a few more questions here after ... I will post up my pictures also of why I have had to whistle blow ...
Source URL: school caretaker worries - https://www.electriciansforums.net/threads/school-caretaker-worries.181998/page-2#post-1603986

 

[Pete999]

I will tell you what's what after the meeting . I'm asking for his 18th edition certificate and and completed work certificate... I can't tell you everything because I have an email ready to send to HSE.... I gave spoken to a HSE officer outside 9f Sussex and I do not want to say anything that might jeopardize anything ..... I'm asking to see the report I will make notes on who and when and if like to ask a few more questions here after ... I will post up my pictures also of why I have had to whistle blow ...
Source URL: school caretaker worries - https://www.electriciansforums.net/threads/school-caretaker-worries.181998/page-2#post-1603986

I wouldn't dwell to much on the 18th cert Mate, if I were you, the Regulations change every 5 mins so not having an up to date book reading qualification does not make you a bad Electrician, asking for proof of the 18th could embarrass you.

 

[jannadog]

I wouldn't dwell to much on the 18th cert Mate, if I were you, the Regulations change every 5 mins so not having an up to date book reading qualification does not make you a bad Electrician, asking for proof of the 18th could embarrass you.

so what should I ask for . I'm right in saying if you gutted a room and completely re wire it and connect it to the consumer panel it should be to regulations 18th edition and what qualifications do you need for giving certificates...

 

[westward10]

What you need to be is competent this does not necessarily mean a list of recognised qualifications although it would be difficult to prove otherwise, that said qualifications aren't necessarily proof of competence.

 

[Pete999]

so what should I ask for . I'm right in saying if you gutted a room and completely re wire it and connect it to the consumer panel it should be to regulations 18th edition and what qualifications do you need for giving certificates...

An EIC Mate Electrical Installation Certificate, completed with Test results, Like Westward Has said Competency is the criteria, if the Electrician has dome installation work it will need to be tested, proved to be safe to connect to a LV supply. If on the other hand the Sparky has just altered an existing Circuit with no new circuits, The certification required would be a MNEWC Minor New Electrical Works Certificate. whatever will/should prove that the work done is to the correct standard and has bee tested to the correct standard. like I said earlier the BS update 18 th Edition is not proof of competency, it only shows you can read and navigate, what is a large British Standard, there are those that say it is pointless but sadly necessary in todays world of Electrics, don't well on it, it won't prove anything, other that he can read.

 

[Lister1987]

If you haven't already I would get joined to a union, Unite or similar would be your best bet, for the few quid membership would cost you'll get legal advice and be in a better position to fight back and defend yourself - If they fire you for whistleblowing then that's unfair dismissal right there, just don't give them any other reasons they might try and use (timekeeping etc)

 

[littlespark]

Is there any chance of a photograph of this electricians work? We like a good laugh

 

[Pete999]

If you haven't already I would get joined to a union, Unite or similar would be your best bet, for the few quid membership would cost you'll get legal advice and be in a better position to fight back and defend yourself - If they fire you for whistleblowing then that's unfair dismissal right there, just don't give them any other reasons they might try and use (timekeeping etc)

Good advice with a caveat, most Trade Unions will not act retrospectively, or they wouldn't when I was Trade Union Representative, so be aware of that fact before you act.

 

[Lister1987]

Good advice with a caveat, most Trade Unions will not act retrospectively, or they wouldn't when I was Trade Union Representative, so be aware of that fact before you act.

It's worth a try, I'd argue it's not retrospective, it's currently ongoing, hence joining the union to get advice; no different than being nicked and then getting a solicitor, rather than having one on retainer.

 

[Midwest]

You guys are seeming to ignore the fact that things like this cost money to repair. Forget H&S, as Grenfell has proved. They won't do anything, until it ends up on their desk, and then they will try and blame someone else.

Whistleblow @jannadog and or keep your diary safe.

 

[jannadog]

ok I'll show Monday after meeting. a a reall big thank you. it's good advice you have given me

 

[Pete999]

It's worth a try, I'd argue it's not retrospective, it's currently ongoing, hence joining the union to get advice; no different than being nicked and then getting a solicitor, rather than having one on retainer.

TUs don't see it that way Mate sadly, or the ones I dealt with didn't, Prospect, The FDA and r\the PCS, that's why Union membership is always a good choice, just in case, you just never know when you need help. Boy Scout Motto Be prepared. Wish I had stayed a retired member.
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ok I'll show Monday after meeting. a a reall big thank you. it's good advice you have given me

Look forward to your reply Mate good luck don't let the Burgers grind you down, be positive, don't waffle on either, take notes with you and take note for further reference.

 

[David Prosser]

As a TU rep I wish this was true ! Unfortunately with the telesales like attitude towards membership numbers they will definitely take you on retrospectively. I can give several instances where a "college" (term used loosely) has join UNI*** and gain their full support despite being a good half way down the disciplinary route. Totally ----ed me off as when they approached me first thing I asked was are you a member ? Knowing they were not, in fact one of them was a complete union hating Thatcherite! Still a phone call and a direct debit latter and in they go. Complete own goal by the unions in my opinion as it ----ed of the paying members of the union that represents skilled workforce.