Socket in a bathroom closet?

[HappyHippyDad]

Morning..

I have been asked to put a socket in a bathroom closet which has a door on it. Is there anything in the regs with regards this? The only similar situations that I can find show the wall seperating the area from the bath, but in my case there is a door as well, so the closet is completely enclosed.

From the diagram it's clear that it will not be 3m from the edge of the bath, but could it be seen as a seperate area/room?

A FCU will not be an option as I believe it is to charge a toothbrush. The shaver socket has no shelf so not an option, plus the customer wants the socket anyway.

Thanks all.

 

[calpol91]

Looks ok to me?! Just looked in the on site guide, obviously doesn't mention your case specifically but seems ok?! Maybe wait for more answers though before you go ahead....

 

[telectrix]

OK on my watch.

 

[DPG]

If you're not happy with a 13A socket, you could always fit another shaver socket in the closet - most electric toothbrushes have a shave style plug (the ones I've seen anyway). Daz

 

[Guest77]

Believe it or not some shaver sockets cannot handle a toothbrush when it charges and the brushes will damage the unit, some units are made for toothbrushes and combined for shavers lol, seriously, look here K701 WHI | MK Plastic Power Socket, BS 4573, Flush Mount | MK

 

[Guest77]

If you're not happy with a 13A socket, you could always fit another shaver socket in the closet - most electric toothbrushes have a shave style plug (the ones I've seen anyway). Daz

Agree with you on this, I would fit a shaver type unit rather than a socket, I have shown one in a link above this post, good advice there bud.

 

[telectrix]

Agree with you on this, I would fit a shaver type unit rather than a socket, I have shown one in a link above this post, good advice there bud.

he's buggered when he wants to plug in the washing machine, though.

 

[leonard]

Or use a hairdryer, which can fall into a bath full of water and fry someone.:90:

 

[Andy78]

Be just the right distance away for a bath edge mounted heater to take the chill off too.

 

[HappyHippyDad]

Or use a hairdryer, which can fall into a bath full of water and fry someone.:90:

Be just the right distance away for a bath edge mounted heater to take the chill off too.

Those are the sort of things that worry me!! Still if it meets the regs it must be safe :angel_smile:

I didn't consider the idea of just offering a shaver unit hidden away in there, so I'll do that, thanks DPG. I have a feeling it'll be a 'no', but I may question them a little further about what they want it for as well.

 

[Guest77]

he's buggered when he wants to plug in the washing machine, though.

LOL, Well yes, if the socket is for one of those then your right hehe.

 

[colshaws]

imo its no different to a socket in the hall outside a bathroom door.

 

[Andy78]

imo its no different to a socket in the hall outside a bathroom door.

It's very different in terms of responsibility and culpability for the installer though.

 

[derbylad]

Morning..

I have been asked to put a socket in a bathroom closet which has a door on it. Is there anything in the regs with regards this? The only similar situations that I can find show the wall seperating the area from the bath, but in my case there is a door as well, so the closet is completely enclosed.
even if the regs allow it i personal
From the diagram it's clear that it will not be 3m from the edge of the bath, but could it be seen as a seperate area/room?

A FCU will not be an option as I believe it is to charge a toothbrush. The shaver socket has no shelf so not an option, plus the customer wants the socket anyway.

Thanks all.

View attachment 29461

there is no way i would install a plug in a bathroom closet,the socket will then be used for a hairdryer/stereo/heater and there is too much potential for disaster. The tenants in the house maybe do not realise the dangers of electricity in a bathroom but you as an electrician should know the dangers. Tell them you can put a self unit there but definitely not mains voltage.

 

[7029 dave]

I would be twitchy doing it too. RCD on circuit.? No mention Steve.

 

[colshaws]

It's very different in terms of responsibility and culpability for the installer though.

Surely the installer cannot be held responsible for what the customer uses the socket for if its not against the regs. if its behind a door its out of the zone.

 

[Andy78]

Surely the installer cannot be held responsible for what the customer uses the socket for if its not against the regs. if its behind a door its out of the zone.

So where do you draw the line with that ? Being behind a door makes it not in the room so I could put a socket in the vanity cupboard under the basin ?
You could argue it's not actually in the bathroom because it's in a cupboard just as a prosecutor could argue that it is in fact in the bathroom and against regulations.

 

[HappyHippyDad]

I would be twitchy doing it too. RCD on circuit.? No mention Steve.

Not at present Dave, but it will do before I'm finished

 

[HappyHippyDad]

So where do you draw the line with that ? Being behind a door makes it not in the room so I could put a socket in the vanity cupboard under the basin ?
You could argue it's not actually in the bathroom because it's in a cupboard just as a prosecutor could argue that it is in fact in the bathroom and against regulations.

Thats very true. So which one is right? I think the fact we're discussing it and there are mixed views, shows that it is not a clear cut decision.

I guess I'm going to have to think a bit more about it as I believe it can be justified with the regs but perhaps not justified with common sense!

 

[Andy78]

Thats very true. So which one is right? I think the fact we're discussing it and there are mixed views, shows that it is not a clear cut decision.

I guess I'm going to have to think a bit more about it as I believe it can be justified with the regs but perhaps not justified with common sense!

As ever, where you deem the regs to be ambiguous or open to interpretation then the call is yours to make drawing upon your experience, knowledge, and risk assessment of the situation. Whether your scheme, the IET, or anyone else deems the regs to be ambiguous is another matter.

You could say that it's not technically in the bathroom so it's technically not dangerous or against the regs. But people don't get technical electric shocks they get real ones.

These are however just my opinions.

 

[Tuttle]

Surely it is in the bathroom, and what's to stop them leaving the cupboard door open all the time.

From the drawing it looks like you could stand in the bath, open the door and plug in your hair dryer, which I guess could be useful.

 

[DPG]

Morning..

I have been asked to put a socket in a bathroom closet which has a door on it. Is there anything in the regs with regards this? The only similar situations that I can find show the wall seperating the area from the bath, but in my case there is a door as well, so the closet is completely enclosed.

From the diagram it's clear that it will not be 3m from the edge of the bath, but could it be seen as a seperate area/room?

A FCU will not be an option as I believe it is to charge a toothbrush. The shaver socket has no shelf so not an option, plus the customer wants the socket anyway.

Thanks all.

Let's look at it from a different angle. Put a nice little glass shelf next to the existing shaver socket. No wiring, no worries, simples. Daz

 

[colshaws]

In reply to Andy post 17
I understand your point and I never said I would be happy to put one there but that it is the same as a socket in the hall just outside the bathroom that the customer could use for whatever they wish, but as its not against the regs then it can be fitted.
Where do we draw the line, not putting a socket within the kitchen in case someone drops a food mixer in the sink while plugged in.

 

[DPG]

I understand your point and I never said I would be happy to put one there but that it is the same as a socket in the hall just outside the bathroom that the customer could use for whatever they wish, but as its not against the regs then it can be fitted.
Where do we draw the line, not putting a socket within the kitchen in case someone drops a food mixer in the sink while plugged in.

Yes, but in the bathroom your body is soaking wet, hence the extra danger. Daz

 

[7029 dave]

IMO, these opinions are an generation thing us older guys,just think Noooooo, the younger sparky will look at the latest regs an take it in his stride.

 

[tazz]

You have a duty of care to you customer, and if in your view the socket could be used for a use that could indanger life, then its 100% a no go situation. Shaver sockets are used for a reason, they are isolated from earth via the transformer by removing the neutral. Preventing electric shock

 

[Marvo]

IMO, these opinions are an generation thing us older guys,just think Noooooo, the younger sparky will look at the latest regs an take it in his stride.

I think it's a UK thing having a hangup about sockets in bathrooms. In Europe and many other countries around the world it's common practice for washing machines to be installed in bathrooms (outside the designated zones). I'd say if it complies with the regulated zones, it's supplied via an RCD and there's no other exceptional risks then it would be acceptable.

 

[Richard Burns]

Just to fail to add clarification to the mix.
GN7 has this fun statement in it, now does this mean it is in the location or just serving the location?

I would be asking why they want the socket.
If they are from a country that allows this then we can say it is not allowed in UK!
Try and find another solution this seems to be just trying to get past the requirements.

 

[7029 dave]

I think it's a UK thing having a hangup about sockets in bathrooms. In Europe and many other countries around the world it's common practice for washing machines to be installed in bathrooms (outside the designated zones). I'd say if it complies with the regulated zones, it's supplied via an RCD and there's no other exceptional risks then it would be acceptable.

Yes it is.

 

[Guest77]

I think it's a UK thing having a hangup about sockets in bathrooms. In Europe and many other countries around the world it's common practice for washing machines to be installed in bathrooms (outside the designated zones). I'd say if it complies with the regulated zones, it's supplied via an RCD and there's no other exceptional risks then it would be acceptable.

Yes well we did lead the world in most things once, even though we don't now we still pretend we do lol

 

[Badged01]

Ban extension leads. Someone may plug it into the bedrooom socket, trail it into the bathroom and then plug electrical thingys into it -- student digs with sound systems and hairdriers!!

Or heaven forbid, they plug an extension lead into a downstairs socket and take it outside when there is no RCD protection on the circuit .........

As a matter of interest, any learned members of the forum got any statistics/data for all the electrical deaths/injuries in European countries where sockets are allowed and used in bathrooms?

 

[calpol91]

Just to fail to add clarification to the mix.
GN7 has this fun statement in it, now does this mean it is in the location or just serving the location?
View attachment 29466
I would be asking why they want the socket.
If they are from a country that allows this then we can say it is not allowed in UK!
Try and find another solution this seems to be just trying to get past the requirements.

Going off that, I'd say if it's serving the zone it has to be presumed it's within a zone since like many have said you in theory could quite easily plug an appliance in that would be within the zone. I think the shaver socket in the cupboard is the route to go down... I've backtracked :frown2:

 

[uksparks]

If it was me I would say not on your nelly as its still putting a 13A socket in a bathroom, forget about the fact that it's got a door on it, it's within distance of the bath so irrespective of what they tell you or what the regs say, someone could plug something into it and drop it in the bath.

ok I know you could put one outside the bathroom the same distance away but that's NOT within the bathroom.

 

[newtothis]

To the OP I like your questions, a usually learn from the replies to them.
Gutted I'm not to be able to find definitive answers in the regs book for this.
Just thinking out loud, wouldn't this be similar to an immersion heater + airing cupboard ?

 

[Hellmooth]

Socket outside my bathroom, non RCD protected, never been an issue......

 

[Hellmooth]

First time trying to post a photo, obviously not how it's done lol :tounge_smile:

 

[newtothis]

I think it's a UK thing having a hangup about sockets in bathrooms. In Europe and many other countries around the world it's common practice for washing machines to be installed in bathrooms (outside the designated zones). I'd say if it complies with the regulated zones, it's supplied via an RCD and there's no other exceptional risks then it would be acceptable.

Believe it or not, In less posh dwellings in London, you can still find plumbed in baths in kitchens.
Fitted circa 1950s as far as I know.

 

[polo1]

Steve, for what it's worth, in the situation you describe, I would not instal a 13a socket. I don't believe it complies with either the intent or spirit of the regs. I think too that you would be creating a potential liability for yourself if anything untoward were to happen down the line.
I totally accept that it is widespread practice in mainland Europe and there don't appear to be many issues arising, but the simple point is we are working to 7671.

 

[Trickyd66]

OSG 2008+A32015. Page 87. REG 701etc, 3/4 of the way down. "the inside of an airing cupboard in a bathroom is deemed to be outside the location and must effectively limit the extent of the location, just as a bathroom door separates the bathroom as a special location from the rest of the property. However it is strongly recommended where an airing cupboard opens into zone 1 or zone 2 , circuits supplying equipment in the airing cupboard are be (yes, typo in OSG) provided with additional protection by an RCD rated at 30mA" At the end of the day, the choice is yours whether to fit or not.

 

[newtothis]

I'm just learning, it's looks like the provision of this socket is more trouble than it's worth.
I think it fails on: costs & possible safety issues V minor benefits.
Instead of a shelf you could fit the bracket many electric toothbrushes come with.
I think it would be better to replace the ETBrush with one that likes being charged on a shaver point.

These are just my thoughts, not even sure if it makes sense.

 

[HappyHippyDad]

Well I must have changed my mind about 10 times!

Pro's
It's done loads abroad.
Technically, it seems not to break the regs, but not entirely sure.
A few members who I respect are comfortable with it

Cons
It's very close to the bath and could actually be reached by someone in the bath.
Not entirely sure if it's abiding by BS7671.
A few members who I respect say 'No'.

I personally don't think it breaks the regs, but I also think the regs can't account for every situation and it's a bit of a cop out just to say 'it doesn't break the regs'. It's almost as if you find yourself trying to justify it just because it doesn't specifically say 'no' in the regs, even though common sense is telling you 'no'.

I was at the house today and I fitted a shaver unit, mainly because you could reach it from the bath... fairly simple in the end. :smile5:

 

[Richard Burns]

Good solution, prevents you going out on a limb for something that is not really required.
A (hopefully) satisfied customer and an easy in the mind electrician!

 

[shanky887614]

fit an outdoor fused spur and job done ^^

 

[DPG]

Remove the bath.

 

[7029 dave]

Glad you did not do it Steve.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

The closet would be deemed outside of the location, as such you can install as many sockets as you like.