The use of plastic wall plugs for the 18th....

[Spoon]

I was just reading an interesting post about the 18th when the above was mentioned. there seems some debate about this. I initially thought that the idea of prohibiting the use of them was stupid, but I'm not sure now.

http://www.swaonline.co.uk/files/ww/Install Protect _ ComplyFull Document.pdf

These walldog screws look like they could strip the hole easily in some cases.

 

[Pete999]

I was just reading an interesting post about the 18th when the above was mentioned. there seems some debate about this. I initially thought that the idea of prohibiting the use of them was stupid, but I'm not sure now.

View attachment 43259

http://www.swaonline.co.uk/files/ww/Install Protect _ ComplyFull Document.pdf

These walldog screws look like they could strip the hole easily in some cases.

Costly AFDDS and non plastic wall plugs are going to up the prices on any run of the mill Domestic work, in fact any type of work will start to increase price wise.

 

[Strima]

Costly AFDDS and non plastic wall plugs are going to up the prices on any run of the mill Domestic work, in fact any type of work will start to increase price wise.

I have to agree mate, looks like dodgy Bob down the pub will be making a few more quid as the rest of us are out priced...

 

[Spoon]

Costly AFDDS and non plastic wall plugs are going to up the prices on any run of the mill Domestic work, in fact any type of work will start to increase price wise.

Agree with you there mate.

 

[Spoon]

So what's your opinion on the use of plastic wall plugs?

 

[Dillb]

Does this mean we will be getting packets of fixings with 18th Edition approved on them in the near future?

 

[westward10]

I think Walldogs are a solution for a problem which does not exist. They look a proper nasty solution on top of that.

 

[Nigel]

Plastic rawl plugs are perfectly fine. To think otherwise is nuts.

 

[Dillb]

Just out of curiosity, donother trades such as ceiling fittiers, air con installers have to comply too as they both install things that are liable to fall down should the fixing fail in a fire?

 

[Nigel]

Costly AFDDS and non plastic wall plugs are going to up the prices on any run of the mill Domestic work, in fact any type of work will start to increase price wise.

Why would you install AFDDs in a domestic setting?

 

[Pete999]

So what's your opinion on the use of plastic wall plugs?

Not sure Spoon, as I don't do much these days it's hardly an issue for me, although I will be asking the very question at ELEX in September at the Richo Stadium.

 

[Spoon]

Plastic rawl plugs are perfectly fine. To think otherwise is nuts.

So the attachment which was taken from the IET report are both incorrect?
Fire performance of cable supports - https://electrical.------.org/wiring-matters/issues/58/fire-performance-of-cable-supports/

 

[Spoon]

Not sure Spoon, as I don't do much these days it's hardly an issue for me, although I will be asking the very question at ELEX in September at the Richo Stadium.

Would like to hear what they say about it.

 

[Pete999]

Why would you install AFDDs in a domestic setting?

I corrected my statement in the last sentence of my post

 

[Nigel]

So the attachment which was taken from the IET report are both incorrect?
Fire performance of cable supports - https://electrical.------.org/wiring-matters/issues/58/fire-performance-of-cable-supports/

That is a really interesting read and it would appear plastic rawl plugs do not comply.

So I have changed my mind.

 

[Spoon]

That is a really interesting read and it would appear plastic rawl plugs do not comply.

So I have changed my mind.

I was same as you mate, until I read the report about 3 hours ago..

 

[Pete999]

That is a really interesting read and it would appear plastic rawl plugs do not comply.

So I have changed my mind.

Seems someone with such initial forthright views, has been able to change their minds (no offence meant) makes the issue all the more confusing, would like to hear what the scams have to say on the subject. without all the gobbledygook, just plain and simple for us Sparkles to understand, in black and white, not with shades of grey, and get out clauses, I suppose it's asking to much for a simple explanation.

 

[Spoon]

Seems someone with such initial forthright views, has been able to change their minds (no offence meant) makes the issue all the more confusing, would like to hear what the scams have to say on the subject. without all the gobbledygook, just plain and simple for us Sparkles to understand, in black and white, not with shades of grey, and get out clauses, I suppose it's asking to much for a simple explanation.

Reading the report changed my view as well. I thought that plastic wall plugs would not be overly affected by a house fire, but it seems they are.
That's why I posted up the screen shot and the report for people to see. See what they think about it.

 

[Wilko]

During Fire 1 the metal fold over clips secured by screws with a plastic plug were ok, if I read it correctly. And in the more intense Fire 2 they fell out due to plastic plug failure. The only question I have (so far ) - are the Testers saying my house will burn as per Fire 2? (based on?).

 

[Midwest]

In a normal domestic property, I can't see this being an issue; unless the local council have spec'd a rewire of the property using surface plastic trunking.

 

[johnduffell]

Agree plastic plugs are as useful as a chocolate teapot in a fire, but domestic work would not suffer as plasterboard is adequate when they are run above the ceiling.
There was a debate about cables fixed to walls whether they are ok, whether they are fine because the forces are not pulling the screw out.

 

[ipf]

Agree plastic plugs are as useful as a chocolate teapot in a fire, but domestic work would not suffer as plasterboard is adequate when they are run above the ceiling.
There was a debate about cables fixed to walls whether they are ok, whether they are fine because the forces are not pulling the screw out.

Good point John. Fixing to concrete ceilings, without suspended, is vastly different to walls. However, the number of thousands of pyro clips I've fixed to boiler house ceilings or in blocks of flats, for that matter, using plastic plugs and black japs or brass screws, must have some bearing.
I feel it's going way over the top, to tell the truth.

 

[johnduffell]

I feel it's going way over the top, to tell the truth.

Fair enough, but that's exactly why we have scientific process. It allows us to prove what will happen rather than just use intuition. If you know about cognitive bias (look it up) there are a lot of things which are obvious but not actually true.
I'd be happy to debate how proportional it is, maybe that's what you're getting at, and maybe we value firefighters lives too highly according to some opinions (how many millions will the new reg cost? Compare with other things we can do with that money to save lives?)

 

[ipf]

Fair enough, but that's exactly why we have scientific process. It allows us to prove what will happen rather than just use intuition. If you know about cognitive bias (look it up) there are a lot of things which are obvious but not actually true.
I'd be happy to debate how proportional it is, maybe that's what you're getting at, and maybe we value firefighters lives too highly according to some opinions (how many millions will the new reg cost? Compare with other things we can do with that money to save lives?)

Is it one method of coming to a conclusion or making a decision......like throwing pros and cons in pc and seeing what the results bring?....a method of reasoning with statistics , maybe.

 

[Spoon]

But they have done tests on this. See the links in the original post and post #12.

 

[johnduffell]

Is it one method of coming to a conclusion or making a decision......like throwing pros and cons in pc and seeing what the results bring?....a method of reasoning with statistics , maybe.

No it's simply working out the question (do plastic plugs fail in a normal house fire before the fire brigade would have done their bit) then making a repeatable process to check what the answer is based on knowing time periods and temperatures and building materials used. That's been done now.
Then there's all the questions about how much would it cost to implement and whether there are other things we could do costing less and having bigger benefits. And also comparing the cost to implement with the notional value of the lives it saves. We value lives very highly in the UK, so things can often seem to be overkill.

 

[Wilko]

Does anyone know how Fire1 and Fire2 were temps and durations were picked? Are they part of an accredited test programme based on observations of actual fires etc?
I agree that anything plastic is unlikely to provide much mechanical support when exposed to 400C .

 

[telectrix]

so let's all go back to fibre plugs. or can we get some made from asbestos?

 

[ipf]

and there's always ear plugs......I've heard they're not as noisy for drilling, too....

 

[davesparks]

I think it’s worth noting that for containment such as steel conduit and trunking it is normally not just fixed to the ceiling but passes over/through walls and drops down walls to sockets etc. This in itself will often be enough to hold the whole lot up once the rawlplugs in the ceiling have failed.