The use of plastic wall plugs for the 18th....

[Spoon]

I was just reading an interesting post about the 18th when the above was mentioned. there seems some debate about this. I initially thought that the idea of prohibiting the use of them was stupid, but I'm not sure now.

http://www.swaonline.co.uk/files/ww/Install Protect _ ComplyFull Document.pdf

These walldog screws look like they could strip the hole easily in some cases.

 

[Pete999]

I was just reading an interesting post about the 18th when the above was mentioned. there seems some debate about this. I initially thought that the idea of prohibiting the use of them was stupid, but I'm not sure now.

View attachment 43259

http://www.swaonline.co.uk/files/ww/Install Protect _ ComplyFull Document.pdf

These walldog screws look like they could strip the hole easily in some cases.

Costly AFDDS and non plastic wall plugs are going to up the prices on any run of the mill Domestic work, in fact any type of work will start to increase price wise.

 

[Strima]

Costly AFDDS and non plastic wall plugs are going to up the prices on any run of the mill Domestic work, in fact any type of work will start to increase price wise.

I have to agree mate, looks like dodgy Bob down the pub will be making a few more quid as the rest of us are out priced...

 

[Spoon]

Costly AFDDS and non plastic wall plugs are going to up the prices on any run of the mill Domestic work, in fact any type of work will start to increase price wise.

Agree with you there mate.

 

[Spoon]

So what's your opinion on the use of plastic wall plugs?

 

[Dillb]

Does this mean we will be getting packets of fixings with 18th Edition approved on them in the near future?

 

[westward10]

I think Walldogs are a solution for a problem which does not exist. They look a proper nasty solution on top of that.

 

[Nigel]

Plastic rawl plugs are perfectly fine. To think otherwise is nuts.

 

[Dillb]

Just out of curiosity, donother trades such as ceiling fittiers, air con installers have to comply too as they both install things that are liable to fall down should the fixing fail in a fire?

 

[Nigel]

Costly AFDDS and non plastic wall plugs are going to up the prices on any run of the mill Domestic work, in fact any type of work will start to increase price wise.

Why would you install AFDDs in a domestic setting?

 

[Pete999]

So what's your opinion on the use of plastic wall plugs?

Not sure Spoon, as I don't do much these days it's hardly an issue for me, although I will be asking the very question at ELEX in September at the Richo Stadium.

 

[Spoon]

Plastic rawl plugs are perfectly fine. To think otherwise is nuts.

So the attachment which was taken from the IET report are both incorrect?
Fire performance of cable supports - https://electrical.------.org/wiring-matters/issues/58/fire-performance-of-cable-supports/

 

[Spoon]

Not sure Spoon, as I don't do much these days it's hardly an issue for me, although I will be asking the very question at ELEX in September at the Richo Stadium.

Would like to hear what they say about it.

 

[Pete999]

Why would you install AFDDs in a domestic setting?

I corrected my statement in the last sentence of my post

 

[Nigel]

So the attachment which was taken from the IET report are both incorrect?
Fire performance of cable supports - https://electrical.------.org/wiring-matters/issues/58/fire-performance-of-cable-supports/

That is a really interesting read and it would appear plastic rawl plugs do not comply.

So I have changed my mind.

 

[Spoon]

That is a really interesting read and it would appear plastic rawl plugs do not comply.

So I have changed my mind.

I was same as you mate, until I read the report about 3 hours ago..

 

[Pete999]

That is a really interesting read and it would appear plastic rawl plugs do not comply.

So I have changed my mind.

Seems someone with such initial forthright views, has been able to change their minds (no offence meant) makes the issue all the more confusing, would like to hear what the scams have to say on the subject. without all the gobbledygook, just plain and simple for us Sparkles to understand, in black and white, not with shades of grey, and get out clauses, I suppose it's asking to much for a simple explanation.

 

[Spoon]

Seems someone with such initial forthright views, has been able to change their minds (no offence meant) makes the issue all the more confusing, would like to hear what the scams have to say on the subject. without all the gobbledygook, just plain and simple for us Sparkles to understand, in black and white, not with shades of grey, and get out clauses, I suppose it's asking to much for a simple explanation.

Reading the report changed my view as well. I thought that plastic wall plugs would not be overly affected by a house fire, but it seems they are.
That's why I posted up the screen shot and the report for people to see. See what they think about it.

 

[Wilko]

During Fire 1 the metal fold over clips secured by screws with a plastic plug were ok, if I read it correctly. And in the more intense Fire 2 they fell out due to plastic plug failure. The only question I have (so far ) - are the Testers saying my house will burn as per Fire 2? (based on?).

 

[Midwest]

In a normal domestic property, I can't see this being an issue; unless the local council have spec'd a rewire of the property using surface plastic trunking.

 

[johnduffell]

Agree plastic plugs are as useful as a chocolate teapot in a fire, but domestic work would not suffer as plasterboard is adequate when they are run above the ceiling.
There was a debate about cables fixed to walls whether they are ok, whether they are fine because the forces are not pulling the screw out.

 

[ipf]

Agree plastic plugs are as useful as a chocolate teapot in a fire, but domestic work would not suffer as plasterboard is adequate when they are run above the ceiling.
There was a debate about cables fixed to walls whether they are ok, whether they are fine because the forces are not pulling the screw out.

Good point John. Fixing to concrete ceilings, without suspended, is vastly different to walls. However, the number of thousands of pyro clips I've fixed to boiler house ceilings or in blocks of flats, for that matter, using plastic plugs and black japs or brass screws, must have some bearing.
I feel it's going way over the top, to tell the truth.

 

[johnduffell]

I feel it's going way over the top, to tell the truth.

Fair enough, but that's exactly why we have scientific process. It allows us to prove what will happen rather than just use intuition. If you know about cognitive bias (look it up) there are a lot of things which are obvious but not actually true.
I'd be happy to debate how proportional it is, maybe that's what you're getting at, and maybe we value firefighters lives too highly according to some opinions (how many millions will the new reg cost? Compare with other things we can do with that money to save lives?)

 

[ipf]

Fair enough, but that's exactly why we have scientific process. It allows us to prove what will happen rather than just use intuition. If you know about cognitive bias (look it up) there are a lot of things which are obvious but not actually true.
I'd be happy to debate how proportional it is, maybe that's what you're getting at, and maybe we value firefighters lives too highly according to some opinions (how many millions will the new reg cost? Compare with other things we can do with that money to save lives?)

Is it one method of coming to a conclusion or making a decision......like throwing pros and cons in pc and seeing what the results bring?....a method of reasoning with statistics , maybe.

 

[Spoon]

But they have done tests on this. See the links in the original post and post #12.

 

[johnduffell]

Is it one method of coming to a conclusion or making a decision......like throwing pros and cons in pc and seeing what the results bring?....a method of reasoning with statistics , maybe.

No it's simply working out the question (do plastic plugs fail in a normal house fire before the fire brigade would have done their bit) then making a repeatable process to check what the answer is based on knowing time periods and temperatures and building materials used. That's been done now.
Then there's all the questions about how much would it cost to implement and whether there are other things we could do costing less and having bigger benefits. And also comparing the cost to implement with the notional value of the lives it saves. We value lives very highly in the UK, so things can often seem to be overkill.

 

[Wilko]

Does anyone know how Fire1 and Fire2 were temps and durations were picked? Are they part of an accredited test programme based on observations of actual fires etc?
I agree that anything plastic is unlikely to provide much mechanical support when exposed to 400C .

 

[telectrix]

so let's all go back to fibre plugs. or can we get some made from asbestos?

 

[ipf]

and there's always ear plugs......I've heard they're not as noisy for drilling, too....

 

[davesparks]

I think it’s worth noting that for containment such as steel conduit and trunking it is normally not just fixed to the ceiling but passes over/through walls and drops down walls to sockets etc. This in itself will often be enough to hold the whole lot up once the rawlplugs in the ceiling have failed.

 

[netblindpaul]

Just out of curiosity, donother trades such as ceiling fittiers, air con installers have to comply too as they both install things that are liable to fall down should the fixing fail in a fire?

Yes they must also comply when installing their wiring, and the guidance will suggest that this is one of those regulations that will, be retrospective.

 

[Dillb]

Yes they must also comply when installing their wiring, and the guidance will suggest that this is one of those regulations that will, be retrospective.

Sorry should of been a bit more specific, in that they must use fixings that wont allow ceilings and air con pipes and units to fall?

 

[netblindpaul]

It's not ceilings and Air-Con pipework that collapsed and entangled a in a fire fighters resulting in him dying entangled in wiring outside the door of a flat which was on fire.
His body was found with melted plastic on his gloves, so can you imagine what went through that poor mans mind as he lay there dying when he went in to save peoples lives?
He ran out of air so suffocated as well as the "injury" due to the fire.
A horrendous scenario that must never be allowed to happen again.
However, do not let the scare mongers start publishing things that are not in accordance with official guidance.
The IET are not allowed to provide guidance on the requirements of BS 7671 it is prohibited by BS 0.

 

[Dillb]

I agree, but my point is that there are other people work that could also lead to unecessary deaths im a similar fashion, yet as usual its a case of waiting for it too happen before trying to prevent it happening again.

 

[suffolkspark]

Firefighters now do have wirecutters attached to the BA sets and entanglement training given here in suffolk, so they did alter stuff that end aswell.... nice cutters too i left a couple of years ago now though but ended up cutting through the cord that attached them to the set a few times

 

[suffolkspark]

A question following on from this then.... Noticed last time this came up some people were C2ing pvc conduit etc in escape routes..... So what would we code steel conduit in an escape route..... Or anywhere now.... Thats fixed with plastic plugs?

 

[Wilko]

And to that point - do we start to disassemble a metal fixing to see if there's a plastic plug behind it?

 

[ipf]

Just another point, where do we stand with cleats for swa, whether plastic plugs or not?

 

[Spoon]

Just another point, where do we stand with cleats for swa, whether plastic plugs or not?

If the cleats are plastic then it looks like they will fail in a fire.

 

[suffolkspark]

How do we contact the iet directly with questions like this as the info from nic napit etc always seem inconclusive

 

[Briggs69]

What a load of tosh.banning plastic raw plugs.get a grip.the rest of the building will have hundreds of them for plumbing,joinery etc so what diffrence will it make.its just getting to the point of stupid now.

 

[Spoon]

What a load of tosh.banning plastic raw plugs.get a grip.the rest of the building will have hundreds of them for plumbing,joinery etc so what diffrence will it make.its just getting to the point of stupid now.

I think the point of this is to stop firefighters getting "entangled" in cables. They are less likely to get entangled in copper/plastic piping & timber.

 

[Midwest]

I remember either reading, watching a video or one of those Web in Air things from NICEIC/Elecsa, whereby the question of the use of plastic rawplugs in such situations, was raised.

In essence, the response was that the surrounding building material, brick or concrete etc would prevent the failure of the plastic fixing. This was around the time of the introduction of A3, about the same time as the IET report; so there's some confusion or disagreement there. However, as this report was published in 2015, surely there most be some more up to date guidance on this, as the 18th has expanded on this matter.

Could not a member ask their schemes technical for guidance. I would, but as I've no longer in a scheme, so can't

 

[pirate]

I'm trying to get to grips here...
If you install cables over an escape route/doorway in such a fashion that they could fall and impede access in the eveny of fire, then the installation should be designed to prevent this happening. Plastic conduit won't work, regardless of how it is fastened to the wall/ceiling, unless the conduit is purely for aesthetic purposes and the cables are bundled and affixed to the structure with non-inflammable cable ties or similar, which are attached to non-inflammable bases with metal screws into the wall/ceiling...this would be a lot of work.
If the cables are above ceiling height, the same applies, but on tray, suitable affixed with non-inflammable fasteners, and located with, say, stainless steel cable ties, would that not be sufficient?
Seems to me, it is a matter of two factors, namely the method of fixing the cables together/alongside each other under/over a tray/ceiling, and then the method of affixing whatever tray/enclosure is used, to the fabric of the building.
Thus, avoid plastic anywhere over doorways/escape routes, meaning no plastic containment/cable ties/rawlplugs at all.
If that's the way forward, then wall-dogs or similar screws should be used to fasten to solid walls etc and if you go that route it's hardly worth reverting to plastic wall plugs where you can elsewhere, as that's just using 2 methods instead of one, cost aside...but the self-drilling metal screws are hardly expensive in the overall context.

 

[Strima]

Looks like resin anchors are the way ahead then.

 

[pirate]

Resin anchors? Hmm...are they not affected by heat? I've used them to tie brickwork and some other cases, but surely it's a bit fiddly and messy and time-consuming if you're just screwing some metal conduit to the brickwork?

 

[sham]

Was there any report about Grenfell firefighters struggling because of dangling cables and fixtures. I'm just saying we do not know that all this reg stuff is just for economical reasons. Why did it take so long also to create this reg. Fires in properties being going on centuries years, nobody mentioned it then.

 

[Pete999]

Was there any report about Grenfell firefighters struggling because of dangling cables and fixtures. I'm just saying we do not know that all this reg stuff is just for economical reasons. Why did it take so long also to create this reg. Fires in properties being going on centuries years, nobody mentioned it then.

Another ploy to cater for poor training and poorly trained Electricians and Installers, as with the transformation to non combustible CUs

 

[pirate]

I guess it's fair to say that fires have changed over the centuries, and the electrical installations have changed too. We used to have buildings made of brick,stone,wood and slate, but now we have all sorts of materials in there including plastics,cladding, artificial wood-based products, and of course where most buildings 50 years ago had maybe mains electricity and a telephone or two we now have multiple extra cables never envisioned before for computers, telecoms, alarms, cable and satellite TV etc etc.
Also, some of the modern building methods, where every component is designed down to a minimum, means that premature failure can occur if not installed correctly. For example, if you have a house where the ceiling and roof joist are of the engineered "I"-beam type and you drill through these to run services, they are prone to failure even without a fire. Where the upright web is typically 6 or 8mm OSB, you can't expect this to have the fire-resistant qualities of a four by two. Yes, wood burns, but solid timbers in the old style will last longer before failing...and that's just the tip of the proverbial, imho.

 

[sham]

Another ploy to cater for poor training and poorly trained Electricians and Installers, as with the transformation to non combustible CUs

Metal Domestic Consumer boards, make me nervous when taking the lid off with my hands.