Thermodynamic not part of MCS scheme

[Eco Deal]

Did you get the letter from MCS stating Thermodynamic panels are NOT part of the MCS scheme.

Some people will be upset !

 

[The Solar King]

See all the other threads on this.

 

[solarsavings]

STA members won't be upset will they.

 

[The Solar King]

STA members won't be upset will they.

Why is that?

 

[Eco Deal]

Why I know i I bought a product expecting RHI payments then was told you can not have them I would be very upset.

 

[Worcester]

You can use water and water glycol, but not refrigerant now!
http://www.microgenerationcertifica...n companies re Thermodynamic Panels FINAL.pdf

However obviously British Gas have an interest in installing these as MCS (aka Gemserv, part owned by British Gas) are working hard to confirm a standard for it - likely to be a heat pump

 

[CES Heating]

I think they will be classed in their own right at some point in the future. I wont hold my breath for any RHI payments though.

 

[Worcester]

When you read their letter:

It is the opinion of the scheme that the requirements for this type of system will in future fall under the scope of the MCS heat pump standard (MIS 3005). If so, anyone installing and commissioning the refrigerant based thermodynamic systems will need to be certified against this heat pump standard.
We are working very hard with the thermodynamic product manufacturers to look at developing scheme requirements for systems installed using refrigerant.

 

[Darkwood]

We are looking very hard at seeing how we can milk the installer out of their hard earned cash to go on a course just to prove what they have been doing for years!!!!!

 

[The Solar King]

This is rather long but quite enlightening. The following is a very recent email exchange.

Dear Simon

I cannot believe you are sending out this sort of email after all MCS registered installers have received THREE emails from gemserve regarding the dubious nature of this equipment.

Rather than circulate yet more unsubstantiated information, how about providing some real life performance data for cold climates? I have been asking various suppliers of this equipment for exactly this for over 12 months. The silence of the response is deafening.

You will doubtless have seen all three lettters. It would be far more useful if you responded to the concerns raised in them and answered those.

Also how do you stop the panels freezing in sub-zero temperatures? (and do not say they won't because they will) How do you defrost them once this happens? What is the actual net gain (ie energy produced minus energy used to produce) over a standard solar thermal system is an area such as Scoltand where the net gain is on average 1200kwh for a 4sqM system with a 200-250litre tank?

Explain how this equipment can be used for space heating (as advertised) more cheaply than other fuel sources. By my reckoning, during the heating season it would cost more than oil.

See if you can surprise me by answering all my queries plus all the points raised by Gemserve/MCS.

I have annotated your original e-mail. (his annotations in red underneath mine)

Peter Randall
Solar Kingdom Ltd


A quick introduction... We manufacture a domestic water heating system ideal for the UK climate
NO IT IS NOT
YES IT IS, FAR BETTER THAN SOLAR THERMAL FOR EXAMPLE AND COMPARABLE TO AIR SOURCE HEAT PUMPS
cheaper than solar thermal
NOT AT THE PRICE THE DODGY COMPANIES MIS-SELLING THIS EQUIPMENT ARE QUOTING
WE SELL TO TRADE AT £1700 PLUS VAT AND CARRIAGE FOR A SINGLE UNIT, WHAT YOU SELL AT IS YOUR DECISION
and with no seasonality issues (it works all year round)
THIS IS ALSO UNSUBSTANTIATED RUBBISH
DO YOU CLAIM THAT HEAT PUMPS DO NOT WORK ALL YEAR ROUND?. I'd be grateful if you could spare a couple of minutes and read the rest of the eMail...


The primary advantage of this equipment is that it is not subject to the seasonality issues that affect solar thermal and will produce hot water (to 60ºC)
IT WILL ONLY DO IT BY USING A BACKUP IMMERSION ELEMENT AT VAST COST
NOT TRUE
throughout the year and 24 hours a day. These systems generally cost less to the final customer than solar thermal and require no real customer interaction. Once installed they will produce hot water 24 hours a day, 7 days a week throughout the year, the customer does not need to worry about controllers or settings.
BUT THEY DO NEED TO WORRY ABOUT THE VAST INCREASE IN THEIR ELECTRICITY BILL
TYPICAL CONSUMER COST FOR RUNNING A 300 LITRE CYLINDER WITH A 4 PERSON HOUSEHOLD IS NO MORE THAN £10 PER MONTH
Consumer savings in respect of hot water are around 70 - 80% when compared to heating with bottled gas
WHERE ARE THE SUBSTANTIATED PERFORMANCE FIGURES FOR ALL AREAS OF THE UK?
THERE ARE SO MANY VARIABLES AS YOU KNOW THAT PEOPLE CANNOT EVEN DO THAT FOR SOLAR THERMAL, on your own site you don't even have specific solar thermal savings for scotland published and you are a scottish company.
and 60 -70% when compared to electric heating
THESE TWO FIGURES ARE INCOMPATIBLE WHEN YOU COMPARE THE COST OF THE TWO FUELS SITED. THEY BOTH CANNOT BE CORRECT. GO AND DO YOUR HOMEWORK OF THE ENERGY CONTENT OF DIFFERING FUELS AND THEIR RELATIVE COSTS
PLEASE BE MORE SPECIFIC IN YOUR POINT

We manufacture in Portugal at a dedicated factory. Presently we are looking for distributors in the UK and would like to discuss this with you in more detail. We would be happy to manufacture with your own corporate identity.

I've attached various literature for you for information. With regard to pricing, there is a copper and a stainless steel option (prices include the cylinder). Installation is straightforward (and is not restricted to a south facing roof). The evaporator panel can be mounted North, East South or West and on a wall, roof or balcony. We recommend that the panel should be no more than 12 metres from the location of the cylinder. Installation will generally take 2 men 1 day.

Simon Sharp
Director
Raiz Verde Ltd.


Peter,

The equipment works, those who claim it doesn't either don't understand it and / or have vested interests with the solar thermal industry.

We do not, and never have recommended solar thermodynamics for space heating or pool heating and have never advertised that. There are far better, cheaper alternatives available for space and pool heating.

The evaporator panels do freeze, of course, for anyone to claim they don't is ludicrous, probably only those who don't know the systems well would claim that they do not freeze. The systems will produce heat down to -10ºC but obviously there are limitations. Nowhere near the same limitations that there are with solar thermal however. Similar limitations to the limitations there are with air source heat pumps. We would never advocate a one size fits all installation, it is always important that solutions are appropriately specified in each unique install location and requirement.

Further answers in the body of the initial eMail

I have not seen all three letters, I have seen one, I'd be grateful if you could forward them onto me please.

Whilst I know it is tempting to tar everyone with the same brush, please remember that many of those who began selling the Energie system in the UK are the same direct sales operations who gave solar thermal in the UK such a bad reputation initially. There is a place in the market for this product in the UK market provided that it is specified and installed responsibly at a fair price, if it's not for you that's fine, not a problem.

Best regards

Simon


Simon

You still do not answer my questions.

The equipment may work, but does it produce renewable heat as defined by the EU and also the MCS heat pump standard? I have seen no Seasonal Performance Factor data given for this equipment.

I have no vested interests. I investigated this equipment to check the validity of the claims made. I was so concerned not only by the lack of data but also the sales methods being adopted in the market place I contacted Gemserve as I do not want Solar Thermal sullied in the same way that PV has been by the mis-selling activities of the snake oil salesmen. I don't buy your line of you sell it for what you want, as this has the same lack of morality as arms manufacturers.

If your system costs £10 a month to run, where are the substantiated figures for the amount of energy it produces? If it is only producing 50% of a household's daily hot water requirements, this means the other half will cost £60 if mains gas is the auxiliary heating source, a total of £180.00. A normal solar thermal set up produces 50% at an energy running cost of zero, as energy input is net of pump running costs ( it will not operate until such time as the amount of energy placed in the tank is greater than the amount used by the pump) The other 50% costs £60.00. This is based on a hot water heat demand of 2400kwhA. So your product costs £120.00 a year more to run than a normal solar thermal system this is equal to the cost of using mains gas for which you already have the equipment. Even if it produced 100% of the hot water requirement, it is still £60 a year more than using normal ST. You do not state at what price the electricity used is priced at. Over time this will increase by an average of 7.5% a year. If you build this in to a net present value calculation, (now the standard method for evaluating the financial performance of renewables) your equipment is completely unviable.

I produce a case by case computer simulation for each and every installation I undertake for solar thermal which is why we never quote figures on our website. The 1200kWh figure I quote is my own property in Edinburgh where the equipment is fully monitored including the heat input to the hot water tank and as such is fully substantiated. The Energy Savings Trust have also produced a large amount of data in their monitoring programmes. Solar Thermal can also be modelled with reasonable accuracy in SAP.

So the evaporator freezes in to a block of ice. You have still not provided any information as to the deicing mechanism that overcomes this. You right about ASHPs, I have major reservations about their use in cold climates. Incidentally, one of the most honest answers I received your equipment stated its COP dropped to one as ambient temperatures approached zero. This means that in such conditions which will cover a large part of the heating season in areas such as Scotland and the North of England, the cost of producing hot water is the same as using electricity and consequently higher than using oil or LPG.

From all the data I have seen, I understand that 55degC is the maximum unassisted temperature this equipment can heat to without auxiliary backup. This is insufficient for L8 legionella disinfection.

For information, LPG is about 9p/kWh and electricity 14.85p/kWh. You then need to take into account the seasonal performance factor of the LPG bolier. Working on 80% efficiency for the boiler (a low figure) would make the fuel cost 11.25p, still well short of the price of electricity.

Like every other response I have had about this equipment, yours in very short on substantiated performance data for the UK especially colder areas such as Scotland. You have done nothing to answer the fundamental questions that still exist about the efficacy of this equipment.

Letters from Gemserve attached. Perhaps you can address the pertinent and valid points they raise.

Peter Randall
Solar Kingdom Ltd


Peter,

I raised these very issues in the letters in respect of the Energie system over 4 years ago with MCS and was hit with a brick wall. The same in Ireland. Yes, over 4 years ago!

I will address the other points direct with MCS.

Simon


I am still awaiting a reply!!

 

[Darkwood]

Interesting read Solar and very useful to myself as i have a collegue thinking of upping it and going to the stick where he want to be self sufficient to some extent and hes looking into this kind of system... this is the kind of feedback ive been trying to get myself.

 

[Gavin A]

From all the data I have seen, I understand that 55degC is the maximum unassisted temperature this equipment can heat to without auxiliary backup. This is insufficient for L8 legionella disinfection.

55 deg to the base will kill legionella in the tank no problem - it's different to solar thermal where solar thermal with dual coil tank can result in winter in the base of the tank going for days or weeks without getting above 45, where the higher temperatures are then needed in the top of the tank to kill off any legionella that may be growing in the base as it passes through the upper portion of the tanks, if it's being heated to 55 deg throughout the tank as standard each day then that in itself is sufficient for a domestic situation (and L8 regulations aren't designed for domestic situations anyway)

It wouldn't comply with L8 regulations for non domestic situations though, as higher temperatures are needed in these situations in order to ensure that the water is still hot enough on longer pipe runs to prevent legionella growing in the pipes.

 

[The Solar King]

I don't believe it! I think I am turning into Victor Meldrew.

Whilst trying to do some paperwork this morning I have had three e-mails and one cold call all trying to promote/look for distrubutors/sell these products. This reeks of desperation from people with warehouses full of stuff they cannot sell still making unfounded claims they cannot substantiate.