Tightening locknuts with hammer and screwdriver-dog rough or not?

[briwire]

I had a job recently where myself and an apprentice had to gland and terminate a 50mm SWA cable in a panel. I put the locknut in a vice and filed V shaped notches in the 6 leading edges. The apprentice was curious as to what I was doing. As we installed it, I got my trusty old screwdriver out and hammered the locknut tight as my assistant held the gland with his stillies. On completion, he said that it was dog rough, but so difficult to tighten with gland nut pliers. I would be interested to now what others think.

 

[westward10]

Whilst this may be considered an "old skool" (forgive me for quoting that) method it is hardly showing your apprentice professional methods.

 

[Skys]

Worked with lots of different electricians over the years and most have used this technique at some point me included. You after do what is required sometimes to get the job done and the gland tight. The proper technique is not always available.

 

[davesparks]

Rough as hell in my opinion, I've never found it necessary to hammer a nut tight. Sometimes when undoing a nut or lock ring a few taps are necessary to break it free, but not suitable for tightening.

If you can't tighten it properly with the tools you have then maybe it's time to invest in better tools.

 

[Dustydazzler]

A hammer is for hammering nails and a screwdriver is for screwing screws.
Neither should be needed to do up a locking ring nut, that is what a spanner or grips are for...

 

[brianmoooore]

a screwdriver is for screwing screws.

Plus about a dozen other things.

 

[nicebutdim]

Plus about a dozen other things.

The multi tool before multi tools were invented.

 

[pc1966]

Gland nuts are a pain as they are rarely a "standard" spanner size anyway, as well as being larger than most folks spanner sets (unless they work on trains, tractors, etc).

So you almost certainly need either one of the very wide jaw adjustable spanners (often sold for plumbing work) or a slip-joint style of pipe wrench to get a proper grip.

This sort of idea:

Superwide Jaws Adjustable Wrench

Multiple uses in plumbing and heating, particularly useful on plastic waste fittings. Jaw capacity 68mm, jaw depth 55mm.

www.toolstation.com

 

[littlespark]

Gland locknuts tend to be thinner than a regular nut for getting a standard pair of adjustables on them. But you have to persevere.

Tightening with a screwdriver is going to make removal in the future damn near impossible…. Even using the same method!

 

[Marvo]

We had a similar thread not so long ago Spanner Or Grips what do you use ? - https://www.electriciansforums.net/threads/spanner-or-grips-what-do-you-use.208472/#post-1832641

 

[SparkySy]

The biggest problem I find is the L shaped lip on the edge of enclosure to give them strength. This means getting square on to a wafer thin locknut is virtually impossible unless using a cranked spanner or socket if the cable isn't already in the gland. I prefer a spanner or adjustable spanner if possible and slip joint pliers or grips if a spanner isn't working.
I have some Teng adjustable spanners that have slim jaws that are slightly angled that are perfect for locknuts.
Also had some luck with serrated washers under the locknut and tighten from below with a finger on the locknut as you start!

Yes I am guilty of using a cold chisel and small hammer or linesman pliers to tighten up locknuts in the past!
Would I do it now, mmm probably in a pinch yeah, sometimes you just have to work with what you have!
If it's a crowded DB with just enough room in the gland plate for one more, but not enough room to swing a spanner what you going to do?!

 

[davesparks]

Earthing nuts have teeth which grip the panel and allow you to tighten the gland into them without needing to get tools onto the nut.

Or if you do need to spid the nut onto the gland you can flip the earthing nut over so the smooth side is against the enclosure and are also much thicker than a locknut so much easier to get a grip of.

 

[rewireIT]

a screwdriver is for chiselling out back boxes

Fixed it for you

 

[Dustydazzler]

Fixed it for you

I have a couple old cheapo beater screwdrivers for prying and chiseling etc

But i never use my decent insulated drivers for anything other than driving a screw

 

[Moley]

I'm guilty of using a hammer and screwdriver. When you are working on a gland plate with 24+ glands in 4 rows of 6 and you need to remove one from one of the inner rows there's just no chance of getting in with anything else :-(

 

[Mike Johnson]

I have a set of ring spanners with slots cut into them to allow fitting over cables for just the sort of problems above.

 

[nicebutdim]

I have a set of ring spanners with slots cut into them to allow fitting over cables for just the sort of problems above.

You still need to room to turn those spanners a small distance.

 

[Mike Johnson]

You still need to room to turn those spanners a small distance.

That's why I use a ring spanner they are capable of multiple position fitting onto the nut and turning a small distance serration by serration unlike an open ended spanner, or use a Wera Joker combination ratchet spanner, 30deg turn should be capable enough.

 

[Moley]

You should try working on a marshalling kiosk on a large transformer. On some of them there's no wa to get a spanner of any kind in. The designers had no thoughts on maintenance :-(

 

[Dustydazzler]

I wonder if glands should be held in place with a grub scew system and as long as the installer makes sure the screw is facing towards you it would be a 10 second job to release the screw and pop off the gland ?

 

[nicebutdim]

That's why I use a ring spanner they are capable of multiple position fitting onto the nut and turning a small distance serration by serration unlike an open ended spanner, or use a Wera Joker combination ratchet spanner, 30deg turn should be capable enough.

I get the point you're making, but sometimes there isn't sufficient space.

I don't like chisels being used on a lock ring, but understand that occasionally there is no other option.

 

[Pretty Mouth]

I often find I have to use a chisel and hammer to tighten locknuts. I see no harm in it, and often nothing else will work in the space available. Reading the comments here, some people seem very much against it. Could anyone explain what harm might come as a result of using this technique?

 

[DPG]

I often find I have to use a chisel and hammer to tighten locknuts. I see no harm in it, and often nothing else will work in the space available. Reading the comments here, some people seem very much against it. Could anyone explain what harm might come as a result of using this technique?

Damaging the flat sides of the nut, making it difficult for a proper spanner to fit on. Depending how heavy-handed you are of course!

 

[nicebutdim]

I often find I have to use a chisel and hammer to tighten locknuts. I see no harm in it, and often nothing else will work in the space available. Reading the comments here, some people seem very much against it. Could anyone explain what harm might come as a result of using this technique?

It's a necessary evil, but not one that should be used if an alternative exists (IMO).

 

[Mike Johnson]

Just a thought, if you can't get the proper tool in to do the job is the enclosure or work just carried out fit for purpose.

 

[nicebutdim]

Just a thought, if you can't get the proper tool in to do the job is the enclosure or work just carried out fit for purpose.

A very good customer needs a supply taken from a perfectly good, but badly glanded board. Do you a). refuse the job because you're going to have to chisel a locknut, or b). do the job and live with the fact you had to chisel a locknut in a job which is otherwise perfectly satisfactory?

This customer may account for hundreds of thousands of pounds of your annual turnover and not everything in life is box fresh or perfect.

 

[Pretty Mouth]

Okay, so no real worries then. I'm not concerned about being unable to get a spanner on the nut after using the chisel, as I've already established that a spanner isn't up to the job. It's a practical solution to a practical problem and I'm surprised that so many here feel so strongly against it.

 

[Eric12]

Sometimes its easier to install the gland without any cable attached to it first. then you can tighten the gland while holding the lock nut; then install the cable. Just stating the obvious as sure you guys know that already

 

[pc1966]

It's a practical solution to a practical problem and I'm surprised that so many here feel so strongly against it.

I think the concern is it becoming the taught "first option" instead of the last resort if access, or previous damage, means you really have little other options.

 

[davesparks]

Sometimes its easier to install the gland without any cable attached to it first. then you can tighten the gland while holding the lock nut; then install the cable. Just stating the obvious as sure you guys know that already

Isn't that the normal way of doing it?

 

[davesparks]

I often find I have to use a chisel and hammer to tighten locknuts. I see no harm in it, and often nothing else will work in the space available. Reading the comments here, some people seem very much against it. Could anyone explain what harm might come as a result of using this technique?

I don't think it's possible to gauge whether it is actually properly tight or not when hitting it with a hammer and chisel.

The gland and locknut form an electrical connection in the CPC of the circuit, is it really acceptable to make protective conductor connections with a hammer and chisel?

 

[davesparks]

A very good customer needs a supply taken from a perfectly good, but badly glanded board. Do you a). refuse the job because you're going to have to chisel a locknut, or b). do the job and live with the fact you had to chisel a locknut in a job which is otherwise perfectly satisfactory?

c) use an earthing nut instead of the locknut and tighten the gland down into it as they have teeth to grip the enclosure.
d) use an adaptable box or conduit box to gland the cable into.
e) you could probably do something creative with a pair of Conlok adaptors and a short bit of conduit.
f) gland it to the side or bottom of the board, it sounds like the install is already a mess so an ugly cable bit of cable routing probably won't be too bad.

 

[rewireIT]

Sometimes its easier to install the gland without any cable attached to it first. then you can tighten the gland while holding the lock nut; then install the cable. Just stating the obvious as sure you guys know that already

In my experience it's usually a ballache to get the armourings on the gland doing it this way depending on how the cable is run in. Spiralling open the armours and then having to manipulate the cable into place often means they no longer sit right and some get stuck inside the gland instead of sitting outside it.

 

[nicebutdim]

c) use an earthing nut instead of the locknut and tighten the gland down into it as they have teeth to grip the enclosure.
d) use an adaptable box or conduit box to gland the cable into.
e) you could probably do something creative with a pair of Conlok adaptors and a short bit of conduit.
f) gland it to the side or bottom of the board, it sounds like the install is already a mess so an ugly cable bit of cable routing probably won't be too bad.

There are often many means of achieving the same ends and, as I've previously stated, taking a hammer and chisel to the lock nut would be a last resort.

Sometimes an earthing nut isn't available in the required size - unfortunately they aren't widely stocked by local wholesalers, even in small sizes.

Often glanding into something other than the DB is a viable option, but sometimes not.

As you have stated, gland and locknut form an electrical connection. While I've become increasingly confident about the use of Conlok, it should be remembered that the electrical connection depends on a 2mm grub screw.

Glanding to parts of the board (other than the gland plate) would be a usual enough option, but sometimes space constraints mean it isn't possible to get the cable in question to anywhere other than a busy gland plate.

For clarity, and repeating a point I've made several times already, I don't like taking a chisel to locknuts but on some occasions it can be the only option and is a viable (yet rough) method of securing a tight connection between gland and plate.

 

[cliffed]

We“ve all done it..I got told off years ago for doing it..still remains in my head…may ask for some compensation…Mental Health & more in this PC World …certainly not been the same since… bolster & hammer these days

 

[Mike Johnson]

We get so many comments on here about following manufacturers instructions, I wonder what the manufacturer would think about using a hammer and screwdriver/chisel/bolster on their nuts, Oh Matron.

 

[Dustydazzler]

Exactly , we carry a multi thousand pound arsenal of tools yet when it comes to a lock nut we suggest smashing it with a hammer / mallet and a screwdriver / chisel, of which not one of these tools was designed to tighten up or untighten a locking ring / nut...

I still think some sort of grub screw connection for conduit and glands / bushes would be way way simpler

 

[westward10]

Trouble with modern lock nuts is they are so thin. Years ago and I'm not sure if they are still available but you could get quite thick lock nuts which you could actually get a purchase on.

 

[Mike Johnson]

Trouble with modern lock nuts is they are so thin. Years ago and I'm not sure if they are still available but you could get quite thick lock nuts which you could actually get a purchase on.

The problem seems to be that most on here are saying, because of space restraints they can't get a tool on the nut to tighten it. I can't think that any manufacturer would put a unit on the market that is so badly designed the knock outs are too close together to allow tightening of the locknuts with a tool.

 

[Pretty Mouth]

I can't think that any manufacturer would put a unit on the market that is so badly designed the knock outs are too close together to allow tightening of the locknuts with a tool.

Absolutely, as long as that tool happens to be a chisel.

 

[littlespark]

Stretch the job out.

Disconnect and remove any other glands that are blocking using the proper wrench, then reconnect. Turns a half day job into 3 full.

I’m sure no one would batter an MI gland the same way.

 

[Dustydazzler]

Stretch the job out.

Disconnect and remove any other glands that are blocking using the proper wrench, then reconnect. Turns a half day job into 3 full.

I’m sure no one would batter an MI gland the same way.

I certainly wouldn't pummel an MI gland with a hammer and chisel , not unless you want to spend the next hour re-making it all off again

 

[nicebutdim]

Stretch the job out.

Disconnect and remove any other glands that are blocking using the proper wrench, then reconnect. Turns a half day job into 3 full.

I’m sure no one would batter an MI gland the same way.

That's the answer. Shut down half a building, then spend the rest of the year looking for new work in the few moments of respite between insurance claims.

 

[nicebutdim]

The problem seems to be that most on here are saying, because of space restraints they can't get a tool on the nut to tighten it. I can't think that any manufacturer would put a unit on the market that is so badly designed the knock outs are too close together to allow tightening of the locknuts with a tool.

Knockouts?

Usually the problem is too many outgoing single phase circuits and no space to use other parts of the board. Sometimes it's down to lack of foresight from a previous spark who felt their life would be easier if they kept all outgoing cables to the front.

When I've previously commented about lack of space to get a tool in, it wasn't a flippant comment. Thankfully this isn't an everyday occurrence for me, but in my couple of short years in the industry it's something I've faced on a number of occasions.

 

[Eric12]

These make it a bit easier to get purchase on a difficult lock nut. Found them useful last year when glanding Ryefeids

ERGO™ Central Nut Wide Opening Thin Jaw Adjustable Wrenches with Rubber Handle

{ "1": "ERGO\u2122 Central Nut Wide Opening Thin Jaw Adjustable Wrenches with Rubber Handle" }

www.bahco.com

 

[littlespark]

That's the answer. Shut down half a building, then spend the rest of the year looking for new work in the few moments of respite between insurance claims.

What insurance claims?

Maybe the one about working in a board with live circuits?
You would have the board shut down of course? …. wrestling a big cable and gland into its hole, swinging a big hammer around and all that. Whoops, slipped, bang!

That’s the crux of this thread though…. Saving time by using the wrong tools, and basically cutting corners… because, “ if you don’t do it, someone else will”

Now where have I heard that before?

 

[rewireIT]

What insurance claims?

Maybe the one about working in a board with live circuits?
You would have the board shut down of course? …. wrestling a big cable and gland into its hole, swinging a big hammer around and all that. Whoops, slipped, bang!

That’s the crux of this thread though…. Saving time by using the wrong tools, and basically cutting corners… because, “ if you don’t do it, someone else will”

Now where have I heard that before?

You've got to admit, removing several armoured glands just so you don't have to spend 30 seconds hitting a locknut with a hammer and chisel is a bit OTT. There's doing it properly but there's a phrase 'where reasonably practicable' that is used a lot and this is one of those times. Spending 3 days, 3 days of factory/unit/home downtime, and thousands of pounds, just to avoid saying you cut a corner on a forum, falls under reasonably practicable. It's not. So you shouldn't do it.

When you gland with a hammer and chisel literally nobody but people online cares. Someone on site will call you rough then you go on about your life because it makes no difference.

 

[westward10]

I believe it was said tongue in cheek although it was @littlespark so who knows

 

[littlespark]

I believe it was said tongue in cheek although it was @littlespark so who knows

And it’s the weekend…..

 

[Darkwood]

I'll play the devil's advocate, learnt it that way, always done it and crucially that contact point needs to be as tight as can be given in a fault it could be 1000+ amps, used every tool in the book and never been able to nip it up as tight as a thelmic planner and a old flat bladed screwdriver.