Use of tie wraps and bunching conductors in DB's

[CT13]

Hello all,

I am told that this is no longer permissible under the 17th edition or one of its amendments. This argument seems to have been going on for some time now.

I have the red book but not the amended editions and have not found a specific regulation relating to it there. Of course, I understand it could be an interpretation of another regulation not specifically relating to distribution boards.

If someone could shed a little light that would be great.

 

[Darkwood]

Before we go down that route, can we clarify you do not have or know the amendments since the red book?

Are you a practicing Electrician or under the instruction of one who does not posses any of the amendments since the red book?

If either answer is yes to the above then why are you doing the work without knowledge of the latest regulations, since the red books, there has been a lot of additions and changes including in the new Yellow book coming into force in just over a month the permitted Zs values ..all of which are crucial to be competent and write of your work...

Please correct me if I'm going down the wrong path of thought here.

 

[CT13]

I have asked one specific question, let's not make the assumption that I am carrying out work without an adequate working knowledge of the regulations.

I am aware that the 'yellow' 3rd amendment published January, comes into force on the 1st of July and that there are changes to the maximum permissible Zs values.

I would add that I have both the first and second amendment OSG's which I refer to regularly.

 

[uksparks]

darkwood, I agree with your comments, not only this, the fact that the OP appears not to own a green or even a yellow book is suggestive that he is not part of a scheme, so that then makes me think is he going to be changing a consumer unit without notification or is he planning on paying LABC a large sum... Just airing my thoughts.

 

[uksparks]

Are you a practicing Electrician or under the instruction of one who does not posses any of the amendments since the red book?

If either answer is yes to the above then why are you doing the work without knowledge of the latest regulations, since the red books, there has been a lot of additions and changes including in the new Yellow book coming into force in just over a month the permitted Zs values ..all of which are crucial to be competent and write of your work

From the defensive answer and a post, I can only presume he is a practising electrician without up to date regs books and not in a scheme based on a post he made in Septembee 2009.

"Over the last couple of years I have studied reasonably hard and passed my City & Guilds 2330 L2, 2392, 2383 & 2391."

 

[CT13]

Reading my question I can see how how you could misinterpret, the wording was unfortunate. To be honest I was just wanting to raise of topic of conversation on which there seem to be mixed views.

Of course I didn't intend to say that I shut the 'red book' and didn't bother to inform myself thereafter on any of its amendments

I can see this is going nowhere, thanks for your time anyway.

 

[uksparks]

I have the red book but not the amended editions

Please confirm if you own a green or a yellow book in addition to the red book?

 

[CT13]

Please confirm if you own a green or a yellow book in addition to the red book?

I own copies (when I say copies, I do not intend counterfeit) of the 1st and 2nd amendment on site guides. I have access to the full regulations for reference purposes. I will buy the 3rd amendment BS in due course. I have not been able to find a definitive answer to a particular query that's it.

 

[PEG]

Please confirm if you own a green or a yellow book in addition to the red book?

...this sounds a little bit like an officials' opening question,Peoples Republic of China style :yes:

 

[uksparks]

As for the tie wraps, the general consensus is don't do it, but I personally don't see any harm if it's not tigjt and not making it any worse than if untied.

 

[uksparks]

...this sounds a little bit like an officials' opening question,Peoples Republic of China style :yes:

Sorry, I'm not trying to sound rude, just trying to establish if he is a practising electrician who does not own a current regs book.

 

[Guest77]

Please confirm if you own a green or a yellow book in addition to the red book?

Whilst I understand why you would like to know, I have to say why does he need to clarify this to get an answer to his original question?

 

[uksparks]

I appreciate that MDJ but it just came across like he only has a red book....

 

[CT13]

I've detailed the publications I own above. I also have some other industry relevant books not mentioned

 

[uksparks]

I own copies (when I say copies, I do not intend counterfeit) of the 1st and 2nd amendment on site guides. I have access to the full regulations for reference purposes. I will buy the 3rd amendment BS in due course. I have not been able to find a definitive answer to a particular query that's it.

I've detailed the publications I own above. I also have some other industry relevant books not mentioned

Thanks for for the information.

 

[Guest77]

I appreciate that MDJ but it just came across like he only has a red book....

I think you are right, he has mentioned he has the later on site guides, I also think he is hiding something because his posts suggest so, that said his question still has not been answered, I know the answer, but I am hoping there is still some other sparks still on the forum to take the load off me lol, the way it is going we are very few and far between now.

 

[uksparks]

#10 is my contribution to the tie wraps, the answer is going to be in the BYB in grouping factors etc somewhere, but doubt that there's a section about using cable ties in a CU.

maybe if I signed up for the online editions of the regs it would be easy to find stuff as you could just search for a word...

 

[telectrix]

cable tying does make for a neat job, but it's a bugger to trace the cables and there's also the fact that heat loss is hampered.

 

[CT13]

I don't understand what it is that I could be trying to hide to be honest. The short fall is that I only have the latter OSG's at home which don't contain the required detail.

MDJ and whoever might be interested in answering the original question, don't bother. I'm quite happy for it to fade into obscurity here and now.

I'll focus elsewhere.

 

[CT13]

I understand the considerations for grouping, heat loss, aesthetics, practicality/good practice but it seems no one on here knows of a specific regulation (or interpretation) which guides against. Maybe that's why I never found it.

This should help to settle a discussion I had the other day, thank you.

 

[shanky887614]

make it neat by all means but dont tywrap them together, use panel trunking if you really want to or reuseable.

all that will happen is they will all be chopped off at next test or alteration

 

[HandySparks]

The regs don't forbid cable tying, but do you really want to do the cable calcs to show that the current carrying capacity of every cable in the bunch is still OK after they've been tied together?

 

[PEG]

I think the fact that factors for "bunched" cables,are included in the regs,is not in dispute. What WILL be disputed,is the interpretation of "bunching".

I have had this minor circular argument in the past,and the spark i was talking to,could not refute the fact that a zip-tie every 400mm OC,was not imparting any more onerous bunching,than the same conductors all sat in tight notches,in joists @ 400mm centers.

It will be the definition of bunching,that we all have differing opinions on.

 

[CT13]

Indeed, I failed to see how the use of cable ties could be forbidden per se, especially if tied loosely and used with common sense just to keep things in order. It's clear that using them to create large bunches of tightly bound single core cables could hamper heat dissipation and would be unwise.

 

[Darkwood]

Got to say my initial post was not in any way an attack on the OP or accusational - it was a few questions to get clarity for my either next helpful response or advice on what the OP should have as basic material for research. It may have been slightly blunt but given how the initial post read I had to ask if a practicing Electrician was unaware of of the last several years of amendments....

His answer gave a little insite but still think that using OSG's as your source of info to amendments as a risky game.. we don't usualy bunch and tiewrap cables in domestic boards so would give a suggestion to commercial or industrial ...without good knowledge of up to date regulations in these areas I would suggest the OP would not be competent but may get away with domestic as regulations have changed little since the red book in that area.

As I said, it was a questioning post and not an accusation on the OP - it seems the thread has evolved with a negative tone though...

 

[davesparks]

Please confirm if you own a green or a yellow book in addition to the red book?

I've got an orange one and a red hardback one if that helps?

 

[Darkwood]

I think the fact that factors for "bunched" cables,are included in the regs,is not in dispute. What WILL be disputed,is the interpretation of "bunching".

I have had this minor circular argument in the past,and the spark i was talking to,could not refute the fact that a zip-tie every 400mm OC,was not imparting any more onerous bunching,than the same conductors all sat in tight notches,in joists @ 400mm centers.

It will be the definition of bunching,that we all have differing opinions on.

This would be down to the situation, I have come across many a time where tiewrapped bunches are generating heat that impairs cable CCC .... luckily the nature of most loads means it never creates an issue but thats not an excuse to look over the reg's ..domestic and small commercial don't really see any issue but on larger installs this can be a very serious issue .. the installer needs to weigh up diversity and the possible effect.. we don't have grouping factor just for fun - again domestic n joists is childs play and not a good analogy.

 

[uksparks]

It's probably my fault that there's a slight negative vibe going on, I was only trying to establish if the OP had a current regs book... Which I still don't have a clear answer to, but I'll forget it and move on now.

 

[GMES]

It's probably my fault that there's a slight negative vibe going on, I was only trying to establish if the OP had a current regs book... Which I still don't have a clear answer to, but I'll forget it and move on now.

well then go and stand in the corner and face the wall for 20 minutes:yes:
I have read every reply and for me it is simply a debate by several members, the book side of the thread as been dealt with so just keep an healthy debate going.

 

[PEG]

This would be down to the situation, I have come across many a time where tiewrapped bunches are generating heat that impairs cable CCC .... luckily the nature of most loads means it never creates an issue but thats not an excuse to look over the reg's ..domestic and small commercial don't really see any issue but on larger installs this can be a very serious issue .. the installer needs to weigh up diversity and the possible effect.. we don't have grouping factor just for fun - again domestic n joists is childs play and not a good analogy.

Morning fella,i did not say bunching could not generate problems,i never mentioned overlooking any regulations,or hinted at grouping factors being fun...

...and,talking as i was,regarding a domestic setting,i thought my analogy drawing similarities between groups of conductors being tightly constrained every 400mm by either a tie,or a notch,was a fair conclusion.

Having said that,to continue the debate,as permitted...i do concur with the bulk of your assertions :yes:

May i ask your honor for a short recess,whilst i consult my client...:uhoh2: