Use of tie wraps and bunching conductors in DB's

[CT13]

Hello all,

I am told that this is no longer permissible under the 17th edition or one of its amendments. This argument seems to have been going on for some time now.

I have the red book but not the amended editions and have not found a specific regulation relating to it there. Of course, I understand it could be an interpretation of another regulation not specifically relating to distribution boards.

If someone could shed a little light that would be great.

 

[Darkwood]

Before we go down that route, can we clarify you do not have or know the amendments since the red book?

Are you a practicing Electrician or under the instruction of one who does not posses any of the amendments since the red book?

If either answer is yes to the above then why are you doing the work without knowledge of the latest regulations, since the red books, there has been a lot of additions and changes including in the new Yellow book coming into force in just over a month the permitted Zs values ..all of which are crucial to be competent and write of your work...

Please correct me if I'm going down the wrong path of thought here.

 

[CT13]

I have asked one specific question, let's not make the assumption that I am carrying out work without an adequate working knowledge of the regulations.

I am aware that the 'yellow' 3rd amendment published January, comes into force on the 1st of July and that there are changes to the maximum permissible Zs values.

I would add that I have both the first and second amendment OSG's which I refer to regularly.

 

[uksparks]

darkwood, I agree with your comments, not only this, the fact that the OP appears not to own a green or even a yellow book is suggestive that he is not part of a scheme, so that then makes me think is he going to be changing a consumer unit without notification or is he planning on paying LABC a large sum... Just airing my thoughts.

 

[uksparks]

Are you a practicing Electrician or under the instruction of one who does not posses any of the amendments since the red book?

If either answer is yes to the above then why are you doing the work without knowledge of the latest regulations, since the red books, there has been a lot of additions and changes including in the new Yellow book coming into force in just over a month the permitted Zs values ..all of which are crucial to be competent and write of your work

From the defensive answer and a post, I can only presume he is a practising electrician without up to date regs books and not in a scheme based on a post he made in Septembee 2009.

"Over the last couple of years I have studied reasonably hard and passed my City & Guilds 2330 L2, 2392, 2383 & 2391."

 

[CT13]

Reading my question I can see how how you could misinterpret, the wording was unfortunate. To be honest I was just wanting to raise of topic of conversation on which there seem to be mixed views.

Of course I didn't intend to say that I shut the 'red book' and didn't bother to inform myself thereafter on any of its amendments

I can see this is going nowhere, thanks for your time anyway.

 

[uksparks]

I have the red book but not the amended editions

Please confirm if you own a green or a yellow book in addition to the red book?

 

[CT13]

Please confirm if you own a green or a yellow book in addition to the red book?

I own copies (when I say copies, I do not intend counterfeit) of the 1st and 2nd amendment on site guides. I have access to the full regulations for reference purposes. I will buy the 3rd amendment BS in due course. I have not been able to find a definitive answer to a particular query that's it.

 

[PEG]

Please confirm if you own a green or a yellow book in addition to the red book?

...this sounds a little bit like an officials' opening question,Peoples Republic of China style :yes:

 

[uksparks]

As for the tie wraps, the general consensus is don't do it, but I personally don't see any harm if it's not tigjt and not making it any worse than if untied.

 

[uksparks]

...this sounds a little bit like an officials' opening question,Peoples Republic of China style :yes:

Sorry, I'm not trying to sound rude, just trying to establish if he is a practising electrician who does not own a current regs book.

 

[Guest77]

Please confirm if you own a green or a yellow book in addition to the red book?

Whilst I understand why you would like to know, I have to say why does he need to clarify this to get an answer to his original question?

 

[uksparks]

I appreciate that MDJ but it just came across like he only has a red book....

 

[CT13]

I've detailed the publications I own above. I also have some other industry relevant books not mentioned

 

[uksparks]

I own copies (when I say copies, I do not intend counterfeit) of the 1st and 2nd amendment on site guides. I have access to the full regulations for reference purposes. I will buy the 3rd amendment BS in due course. I have not been able to find a definitive answer to a particular query that's it.

I've detailed the publications I own above. I also have some other industry relevant books not mentioned

Thanks for for the information.

 

[Guest77]

I appreciate that MDJ but it just came across like he only has a red book....

I think you are right, he has mentioned he has the later on site guides, I also think he is hiding something because his posts suggest so, that said his question still has not been answered, I know the answer, but I am hoping there is still some other sparks still on the forum to take the load off me lol, the way it is going we are very few and far between now.

 

[uksparks]

#10 is my contribution to the tie wraps, the answer is going to be in the BYB in grouping factors etc somewhere, but doubt that there's a section about using cable ties in a CU.

maybe if I signed up for the online editions of the regs it would be easy to find stuff as you could just search for a word...

 

[telectrix]

cable tying does make for a neat job, but it's a bugger to trace the cables and there's also the fact that heat loss is hampered.

 

[CT13]

I don't understand what it is that I could be trying to hide to be honest. The short fall is that I only have the latter OSG's at home which don't contain the required detail.

MDJ and whoever might be interested in answering the original question, don't bother. I'm quite happy for it to fade into obscurity here and now.

I'll focus elsewhere.

 

[CT13]

I understand the considerations for grouping, heat loss, aesthetics, practicality/good practice but it seems no one on here knows of a specific regulation (or interpretation) which guides against. Maybe that's why I never found it.

This should help to settle a discussion I had the other day, thank you.

 

[shanky887614]

make it neat by all means but dont tywrap them together, use panel trunking if you really want to or reuseable.

all that will happen is they will all be chopped off at next test or alteration

 

[HandySparks]

The regs don't forbid cable tying, but do you really want to do the cable calcs to show that the current carrying capacity of every cable in the bunch is still OK after they've been tied together?

 

[PEG]

I think the fact that factors for "bunched" cables,are included in the regs,is not in dispute. What WILL be disputed,is the interpretation of "bunching".

I have had this minor circular argument in the past,and the spark i was talking to,could not refute the fact that a zip-tie every 400mm OC,was not imparting any more onerous bunching,than the same conductors all sat in tight notches,in joists @ 400mm centers.

It will be the definition of bunching,that we all have differing opinions on.

 

[CT13]

Indeed, I failed to see how the use of cable ties could be forbidden per se, especially if tied loosely and used with common sense just to keep things in order. It's clear that using them to create large bunches of tightly bound single core cables could hamper heat dissipation and would be unwise.

 

[Darkwood]

Got to say my initial post was not in any way an attack on the OP or accusational - it was a few questions to get clarity for my either next helpful response or advice on what the OP should have as basic material for research. It may have been slightly blunt but given how the initial post read I had to ask if a practicing Electrician was unaware of of the last several years of amendments....

His answer gave a little insite but still think that using OSG's as your source of info to amendments as a risky game.. we don't usualy bunch and tiewrap cables in domestic boards so would give a suggestion to commercial or industrial ...without good knowledge of up to date regulations in these areas I would suggest the OP would not be competent but may get away with domestic as regulations have changed little since the red book in that area.

As I said, it was a questioning post and not an accusation on the OP - it seems the thread has evolved with a negative tone though...

 

[davesparks]

Please confirm if you own a green or a yellow book in addition to the red book?

I've got an orange one and a red hardback one if that helps?

 

[Darkwood]

I think the fact that factors for "bunched" cables,are included in the regs,is not in dispute. What WILL be disputed,is the interpretation of "bunching".

I have had this minor circular argument in the past,and the spark i was talking to,could not refute the fact that a zip-tie every 400mm OC,was not imparting any more onerous bunching,than the same conductors all sat in tight notches,in joists @ 400mm centers.

It will be the definition of bunching,that we all have differing opinions on.

This would be down to the situation, I have come across many a time where tiewrapped bunches are generating heat that impairs cable CCC .... luckily the nature of most loads means it never creates an issue but thats not an excuse to look over the reg's ..domestic and small commercial don't really see any issue but on larger installs this can be a very serious issue .. the installer needs to weigh up diversity and the possible effect.. we don't have grouping factor just for fun - again domestic n joists is childs play and not a good analogy.

 

[uksparks]

It's probably my fault that there's a slight negative vibe going on, I was only trying to establish if the OP had a current regs book... Which I still don't have a clear answer to, but I'll forget it and move on now.

 

[GMES]

It's probably my fault that there's a slight negative vibe going on, I was only trying to establish if the OP had a current regs book... Which I still don't have a clear answer to, but I'll forget it and move on now.

well then go and stand in the corner and face the wall for 20 minutes:yes:
I have read every reply and for me it is simply a debate by several members, the book side of the thread as been dealt with so just keep an healthy debate going.

 

[PEG]

This would be down to the situation, I have come across many a time where tiewrapped bunches are generating heat that impairs cable CCC .... luckily the nature of most loads means it never creates an issue but thats not an excuse to look over the reg's ..domestic and small commercial don't really see any issue but on larger installs this can be a very serious issue .. the installer needs to weigh up diversity and the possible effect.. we don't have grouping factor just for fun - again domestic n joists is childs play and not a good analogy.

Morning fella,i did not say bunching could not generate problems,i never mentioned overlooking any regulations,or hinted at grouping factors being fun...

...and,talking as i was,regarding a domestic setting,i thought my analogy drawing similarities between groups of conductors being tightly constrained every 400mm by either a tie,or a notch,was a fair conclusion.

Having said that,to continue the debate,as permitted...i do concur with the bulk of your assertions :yes:

May i ask your honor for a short recess,whilst i consult my client...:uhoh2:

 

[telectrix]

Morning fella,i did not say bunching could not generate problems,i never mentioned overlooking any regulations,or hinted at grouping factors being fun...

...and,talking as i was,regarding a domestic setting,i thought my analogy drawing similarities between groups of conductors being tightly constrained every 400mm by either a tie,or a notch,was a fair conclusion.

Having said that,to continue the debate,as permitted...i do concur with the bulk of your assertions :yes:

May i ask your honor for a short recess,whilst i consult my 15th Edition.

corrected that for you

 

[Guest77]

It is like walking on broken glass here now, appalling, give me watching paint dry anytime over this egg shell tip toeing.

 

[Guest77]

It's probably my fault that there's a slight negative vibe going on, I was only trying to establish if the OP had a current regs book... Which I still don't have a clear answer to, but I'll forget it and move on now.

I feel you have done nothing wrong in this thread, so grow a pair and get your chin up.

 

[Guest77]

The OP asked a question and got several answers, in the real world when on site he/she will get a bit of stick, now that is banter, nearly all people who work on site get stick, they usually laugh it off, it makes them the men and women they are, it makes them tradespersons, it is what we do, it is life, they ask questions here and usually get answers, one or two may contain banter, get over it foxx, now UK sparks asked a question about the right coloured Regs book, the fact is it was irrelvent to the question but I and others knew what he meant and why he asked it, calm down there, report the post to a mod if it has upset you that much, UK sparks may get a ban, you and the other sensitive folk here can then talk about knitting on your own.

 

[davesparks]

I see nothing wrong with working to the red book!

 

[CT13]

Easy folks don't get bent out of shape over this. My shoulders are broad enough to take a little bit of over zealous scrutiny on an Internet discussion forum. As MDJ says and I think we all know, on site you have to give and take a bit and that's about it . (Even if we're not actually on site here I'll still accept that analogy)

Would it be a slightly different scenario to question someone's work ethic and competency face to face in the real word ? Maybe. Thankfully it's not really happened to me yet.

As for dredging up a comment I made here in 2009 and suggesting that I have something to hide... Hmm... He probably wasn't on a scheme....The LABC thing ... I chuckled that off in exactly the same way I do banta on site.

Thanks to the people who replied to the question in the true spirit that forum was probably originally intended for, to help share and inform !

 

[malcolmsanford]

CT13 (Are you a Kent man!!!!)

Bottom line there is nothing stopping you ty-rapping your cables together if you want to, and as long as you are happy that there is no degradation of the current carrying capacity you ty rap as your heart is content.

Ty rapping is a modern thing, I would have had my back side rimmed if I ty-ed cable together, but now a days circuits are tapped together in trunking runs which was in my time a no no.

It is just another modern trend, same as running CPCs in metal conduit and trunking, and if that is the way of things then go for it.

 

[uksparks]

I was not trying to cause an argument not cause offence, CT13 mentioned he couldn't find his answer in an old regs book and I just wanted a little clarity as to if he owned a current regs book be if green or yellow and if not, why he is working as an electrician working from an old book which is out if date and missing a lot of very important changes.

CT13, sorry if I got your back up, but I am sure you can understand why I asked, you don't need to justify why you do or don't have a full regs book that's current to me.

I and everyone else who cares would expect every electrician be t a Electrical Trainee or a time served spark to be working from the latest book and not an old one with incorrect information in it.

 

[CT13]

Ha no, not a Kent man !

To be honest I'm not a fan of using them and would agree with what people have said above where they may even be detrimental if misused.

I think it has been established now that there was not anything specifically included in any of the 17th edition amendments and just good sense that had been around for a lot longer !

In looking at attending 3rd amendment refresher so will report back if anything comes up there although I seriously doubt it.

I shall be having talks with my pesky workmate who started all this..

 

[Darkwood]

@CT13 - I initially pulled you up and asked about your regulations because of how you worded the opening post that suggested in its context that you were unaware or had access to ammendments for the last several years - you answered and I replied ...end of thread moves on.
-Glad to hear you have broad shoulders as this is exactly the question I would ask if you worked for me... any of my apprentices who were doing work to old regulations books without been aware of new amendments would be taken off site until I was confident they knew of any amendment that would influence their work, yes not everyone can afford the constant barage of new books but if they ask I was happy to lend my copy so they could makes notes and catch up.

@Silvafoxx - The OP supplied the info (more than he had to) that left the question to be asked, its not self righteous or been up our own arses to ask the question, if an Electrician suggested he was several years out of date which the OP implied then the question needs asking to clarify, it wasn't done accusationally or with a snide comment. If you took someone on at work and he implied he was not up to date then you would question him to satisfy and justify that you were going to take him on and pay him the going rate... Yes the forum has had a stigma attached to it and a lot of bullying and trolling comments were the norm' ... this has changed a lot over the last month and many regular and high profile names are banned for it, the thread has been perused by the mods and they have let it carry on (see GMES post) ... Hopefully abuse has stopped but its not going to stop a legitimate question being asked when it has relevence to the thread....I don't dish abuse out but I also don't tiptoe around people for fear they may not like what I ask or put. The OP has the option to report any post and this is how it works now - your post helps no-one and is IMHO the post that doesn't belong - if you have issue you have three choices
1 - ignore
2 - report the post yourself
3 - post a small comment to the OP that the report button exist although a PM would be more suitable than creating an abrasive attack on other members which is neither helpful or constructive ... take your own advice and use the report button if you do not like a post.

I have no issue with you Silvafoxx and nice to see you back but there has been a lot of changes and this also applies to the type of post you did too.

I think now this thread has done its course, the OP has the info he needed and with his agreement the thread needs closing as its just going to loop around on itself addressing the same issue over and over.

 

[GMES]

Silva.foxx I have deleted your post because if I had edited the swearing out etc, the post would not have made much sense by the time I had finished with it.
The thread is back on track now and the op hasn't reported it so please let's move on.
Has far as I'm concerned the questions regarding being up to current regs was a valid question by the guys.

 

[CT13]

Has far as I'm concerned the questions regarding being up to current regs was a valid question by the guys.

True, my wording was clumsy which left it wide open to the scrutiny which received.

If whoever is moderating here wishes to lock the thread down then pleased do so.

 

[malcolmsanford]

Not a very good picture but I have just been on site and took this. As you can see cable ties are prevalent out here.

I have tried to stop it but it is really a culturally thing as well, so we let it go because all lighting circuits are 2.5mm and power 4mm

Oh also ignore colours, colours are designated by whatever the supplier has on stock, something else over here you just have to walk away from

 

[GMES]

True, my wording was clumsy which left it wide open to the scrutiny which received.

If whoever is moderating here wishes to lock the thread down then pleased do so.

That would be me at the minute, If you request it I will close the thread but if you wish to continue with it that's fine also.
The good thing sometimes with leaving threads running is that more people offer their opinions which give you a more balanced opinion on your question.
It's your choice mate!!

 

[telectrix]

That would be me at the minute, If you request it I will close the thread but if you wish to continue with it that's fine also.
The good thing sometimes with leaving threads running is that more people offer their opinions which give you a more balanced opinion on your question.
It's your choice mate!!

so if you're busy moderating, we can mosey off down to the forest and set some gorilla traps.:38:

 

[Guest77]

True, my wording was clumsy which left it wide open to the scrutiny which received.

If whoever is moderating here wishes to lock the thread down then pleased do so.

Why on earth would you want it closed? you can bunch your cables if you like as mentioned a couple of times, thereis no issue really, some folk hate it though and some employers would not be happy if it was done, some wouldn't care, this site is for opinions, you will get several thats why it needs to stay open, regarding the foxx, I missed his post where the language was so bad the post had to be removed. I personally have no issue with language, however I know of several long term members banned for it, so he is a lucky boy or he is in with the Mods :38:

 

[GMES]

so if you're busy moderating, we can mosey off down to the forest and set some gorilla traps.:38:

You wouldn't do that to me would you Tel!!

Why on earth would you want it closed? you can bunch your cables if you like as mentioned a couple of times, thereis no issue really, some folk hate it though and some employers would not be happy if it was done, some wouldn't care, this site is for opinions, you will get several thats why it needs to stay open, regarding the foxx, I missed his post where the language was so bad the post had to be removed. I personally have no issue with language, however I know of several long term members banned for it, so he is a lucky boy or he is in with the Mods :38:

Jealousy will get you nowhere Mike

 

[CT13]

Why on earth would you want it closed? you can bunch your cables if you like as mentioned a couple of times, thereis no issue really, some folk hate it though and some employers would not be happy if it was done, some wouldn't care, this site is for opinions, you will get several thats why it needs to stay open, regarding the foxx, I missed his post where the language was so bad the post had to be removed. I personally have no issue with language, however I know of several long term members banned for it, so he is a lucky boy or he is in with the Mods :38:

Didn't some else say it should be locked down ?

I don't mind either way.

 

[GMES]

Didn't some else say it should be locked down ?

I don't mind either way.

It doesn't matter if someone else said it mate, if you want it leaving open then that's all that matters. I will leave it running unless I hear otherwise from you.

 

[CT13]

That's fine by me, thanks. Leaving it open that is.