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All my heavy appliances are on their own individual circuits. I was going to fit two radials, but it was cheaper using one lightly used ring.
A friend has a ring doing only his kitchen. The legs are pretty equal to the bunched appliances. The distribution is ~equal on both legs.
Not if it's fed by a 4.0mm² radial. I wouldn't put that assembly on a general-purpose ring out of choice.
I don't have FCus along worktops. There is no need for them if sockets are in adjacent cupboards to appliances in easy to reach locations. Unnecessary.
Bunching off hravy load appliances on rings is ultra common. Only diversity keeps it safe.
As I have read, it most certainly applies. This onen of the points I am clearly making in this thread.
I have a feeling that the core of your misunderstanding is the meaning of 'point'. In electrical practice, this doesn't mean one microscopic locale in space, but one 'place' in the circuit. Hence a power 'point', lighting 'point' and a junction box is a 'point'. All the constituent parts of your wago connector are all one point.
What is clear is that Wagos (and in-sure) have a bus bar inside with a point(s) off the bus bar with a cable connection on that. Nothing says the points have to be feet apart. One poster brought up a heavy appliance terminal switching unit, where the heavy appliances of a ring are about 1/2" apart on a ring.
British rings have no problem in plugging in appliances anywhere once designed properly. As long as one leg does not exceed its cable current rating all is fine regarding balance.
Regarding radials in other countries, I have always been uncomfortable with them not having fuses in the plugs, as is standard in the UK. So, a table light with low current flex is plugged into a socket, with the only protection being a 16A or 20A mcb at the consumer unit. That table lamp's flex will cook if they is a serous fault. Dangerous. My kitchen toaster is 800W, It have a 6A fuse in the plug. I always put 1 A fuses in table lamps. The flex and appliance is then protected properly.
I know people who have bought houses in Spain and France. They first thing they did was to fit UK 3-pin sockets and plugs on the radials inserting the correct plug fuse for the appliances. Were the appliance was over 13A they left the existing socket and plug - these are fixed appliances like dryers. I am not aware of continental plugs having fuses in them - unless someone knows of one on the market.
I don't think they need to. Aren't EU appliances designed to be safe to use on the European 16A radial circuits?
Furthermore as stated by a previous poster, an appliance is an "end of line" accessory which does not require overload protection, it simply requires short circuit protection.
I believe the Europeans had that figured out some time ago.
any roar 7 pages on a thread about wagos. that's more pages than in the Wago sales brochure.
You seem to think lamps will not develop faults.
For the 2nd fix they then just put clip the tails into the Wagos (or In-Sure) inside the backboxes,. The sockets easily push back being on flexible cable. They then screw up the sockets using a battery screwdriver finishing off with a hand screwdriver, taking about a minute or two for each socket.
When installing in flats they also use Wagos in the switch backboxes to link up the lighting radial. Again, using flex cable to the light switch, fixing into the light switch on a bench.
Pre-wired sockets and battery screwdrivers! Really!? Sounds like these guys would better employed on a factory production line.
We in the UK and Ireland would have to increase appliance lead sizes significantly because of the ring circuit with its 32 amp circuit protection. However the fused plugtop allows us to have similar sized leads as the europeans.
For instance the 0.75mm rated at 6 amp would in fact have adequate short circuit protection via a 13 amp fused plug top.
This often lead to a complete ring being installed on the first floor, with a spur from every socket to a socket on the ground floor.
Discuss Wagos on Final Ring Circuits in the Electrical Wiring, Theories and Regulations area at ElectriciansForums.net
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This one shows dishwasher, washing machine and tumble drier. Hardly distributing the heavy loads around the ring! About the full 32A from this one point from just those three.
Yep. On my ring, which has 16 sockets off it - 12 double, four single. The kitchen is not far from the CU. When the toaster is on, 75% of its load is through one leg of the ring. So, when the full 32A is being drawn, if all the draw is in the kitchen bunched up, 24 amps will be through one leg. This is within the 27 amps of the 2.5 cable.
All my heavy appliances are on their own individual circuits. I was going to fit two radials, but it was cheaper using one lightly used ring.
A friend has a ring doing only his kitchen. The legs are pretty equal to the bunched appliances. The distribution is ~equal on both legs.
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Not if it's fed by a 4.0mm² radial. I wouldn't put that assembly on a general-purpose ring out of choice.
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i wouldn'tput it on anything other than a skip. the number of fail ed switches i've encountered on those appliance grids is phenomenal. seen loads bridged due to this.
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Neither would I, but plenty would. To be more exact, I wouldn't use those panels at all by choice.
They look like grid switches.
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they are grid switches. generally specced by costomers who don't want FCUs or D/P switches along the worktops. then they moan when the dishwasher/freezer/washing machine wuuna work coz the switch is broke.
You can make up grid switches cheaper. My experience with grid switches, is only buy the branded quality ranges. Frustrating and time consuming when fitting with so many wires in tight locations. Some carrying high loads as well, which is off putting. They are convenient and neat looking for the users though.
I don't have FCus along worktops. There is no need for them if sockets are in adjacent cupboards to appliances in easy to reach locations. Unnecessary.
Bunching off hravy load appliances on rings is ultra common. Only diversity keeps it safe.
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Dude, we know how Wagos are constructed. You're clearly set on doing whatever job this is your own way, we're just telling you it doesn't comply with the regs as written, whatever sophistry you come up with.
Will direct me please to this reg.
As I have read, it most certainly applies. This onen of the points I am clearly making in this thread.
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For that one, I'll have to defer to my UK colleagues. Funny thing is, under Australian rules you'd be fine, we don't use ring final circuits so all final sub circuits are protected by an MCB/RCBO suited to the cable. Hence we can apply the full load at any point on the circuit without worries.
I have a feeling that the core of your misunderstanding is the meaning of 'point'. In electrical practice, this doesn't mean one microscopic locale in space, but one 'place' in the circuit. Hence a power 'point', lighting 'point' and a junction box is a 'point'. All the constituent parts of your wago connector are all one point.
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Can I contact admin??
It is about advertisement on your website.
Thank.
It is about advertisement on your website.
Thank.
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You can only advertise if you are a sponsor.
I have no misunderstanding. You are interpreting your idea of what a point is, which is not mine. I formed mine by looking at the bus bars in the Wagos and how they apply to rings and spurs off rings.
What is clear is that Wagos (and in-sure) have a bus bar inside with a point(s) off the bus bar with a cable connection on that. Nothing says the points have to be feet apart. One poster brought up a heavy appliance terminal switching unit, where the heavy appliances of a ring are about 1/2" apart on a ring.
British rings have no problem in plugging in appliances anywhere once designed properly. As long as one leg does not exceed its cable current rating all is fine regarding balance.
Regarding radials in other countries, I have always been uncomfortable with them not having fuses in the plugs, as is standard in the UK. So, a table light with low current flex is plugged into a socket, with the only protection being a 16A or 20A mcb at the consumer unit. That table lamp's flex will cook if they is a serous fault. Dangerous. My kitchen toaster is 800W, It have a 6A fuse in the plug. I always put 1 A fuses in table lamps. The flex and appliance is then protected properly.
I know people who have bought houses in Spain and France. They first thing they did was to fit UK 3-pin sockets and plugs on the radials inserting the correct plug fuse for the appliances. Were the appliance was over 13A they left the existing socket and plug - these are fixed appliances like dryers. I am not aware of continental plugs having fuses in them - unless someone knows of one on the market.
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I don't think they need to. Aren't EU appliances designed to be safe to use on the European 16A radial circuits?
I have never seen them.
You never know. Have fun while it lasts.
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Europeans are completely comfortable not using fuses in plug tops because they are not required. Using the same adiabatic equation they can very safely plug their appliances into 16amp protected circuits. Fused plugtops in UK and Ireland on the other hand are obligatory due to the ring circuit having 32 amp circuit protection
A 0.75mm flex is not protected on a 16A radial. The maximum rating for a 0.75mm cable is 6 amp. It needs 6 amp or lower protection, not 16 or 20 amp. Run 20 amps through a 0.75mm flex then see what happens to it.
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Overload protection can be omitted for a fixed load, as it's not possible for 20 amps to flow in this scenario.
SO I believe. But I have known a few table lamp fires in my time, and we have fuses in the plugs as well. OK they probably had a 13A fuse, not a 1A. But we have the ability to give greater protection, they do not in the basic designs.
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Who said a 0.75mm flex IS protected by a 16a radial???. I think you may have misread my comment.
Furthermore as stated by a previous poster, an appliance is an "end of line" accessory which does not require overload protection, it simply requires short circuit protection.
I believe the Europeans had that figured out some time ago.
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I have never heard of a table lamp fire. Can I ask where these occurred and under what circumstances?
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candle lamps?
any roar 7 pages on a thread about wagos. that's more pages than in the Wago sales brochure.
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To be fair to OP, I thought he made an intelligent argument regarding use of WAGO connector in a ring circuit, though under scrutiny it ran out of steam. It did however hold my attention. I found the reasoning on "table lamp fires" much less persuasive.
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In that case you can start a lucrative business in the UK changing ceiling rose, s
LIghting circuits are on 20A mcbs? New on me.
Sounds good. Looks like the Spanish have come a long way. When I was a kid I recall seeing the bell wire i the ceilings, they used for lighting circuits as they built those shoddy hotels.
I recall as kid we smelled burning in a bedroom. My sister's table lamp was melting - around the switch. My Dad pulled the plug out, taking the smelly lamp outside. I recall it had a 13A fuse in the plug, as it was brown coloured, not a 1A. An electrician neighbour told us put a 1A fuse in table lights. He also went around the house telling us what fuse value to put in the plugs as well. We were lucky we got there soon enough. A 1A would have saved it. That was just in our house.
You seem to think lamps will not develop faults.
I actually suggested it to them. It saves them so much time. And a much professional job. One will take all the sockets, FCU, etc, of job home as he has a workbench in his garage. There could be 40-50 of these. He cuts the 2.5mm flex cable (L,N,E sheathed) into approx 6 inch lengths, strips them fixing the tails into the outlets, switches etc. This can take the best part of a day, depending how many.
For the 2nd fix they then just put clip the tails into the Wagos (or In-Sure) inside the backboxes,. The sockets easily push back being on flexible cable. They then screw up the sockets using a battery screwdriver finishing off with a hand screwdriver, taking about a minute or two for each socket.
When installing in flats they also use Wagos in the switch backboxes to link up the lighting radial. Again, using flex cable to the light switch, fixing into the light switch on a bench.
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It was melting at the switch because of either a defective switch or because of a loose connection. Your neighbours well intentioned solution of sticking on a 1 amp fuse rather than a 13 amp fuse would make no difference. Fuses don't detect poor connections. They only detect overloading. Your neighbours suggestion is a good example of a "solution" being provided for a "problem" that did, nt exist
Your suggestion. That figures. Why on earth would anyone design a RFC with every socket actually a spur? I don't get it. I'm trying not to judge and to remain curious but surely this can't be right? Does the person signing off the design actually know that his guys are doing this? What's their motivation for doing it? I don't believe that the assertion that wagos make better connections is the driving force. As you've written in bold the true reason is speed, so therefore the only motivation appears to be greed .... and maybe it makes them feel "clever". In the location of a backbox the cables are pretty well restrained so the screwed terminals won't see any vibrations, and certainly not enough to loosen a screwed terminal that was tight in the first place. The main opportunity for wires to become loose in a socket screwed terminal is when they are manipulated as the socket is pushed onto the backbox. Personally I always pull the socket back out just enough to get to the terminals and retighten.... very occasionally there's one that will nip up slightly.
Pre-wired sockets and battery screwdrivers! Really!? Sounds like these guys would better employed on a factory production line.
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I have no doubt that the fuses in your case are there for a legitimate reason. What I wanted to highlight was that the lack of fuses in European plugtops is not due to poor electrical design as the OP suggests. Their 16 amp circuit fuses adequately protect their appliance leads because the appliance leads, are sized accordingly. Its worth bearing in mind that the CE mark is a European standard which stipulates that any appliance manufacturer must ensure that their appliances are suitable for the fixed wiring system they are being used in.
We in the UK and Ireland would have to increase appliance lead sizes significantly because of the ring circuit with its 32 amp circuit protection. However the fused plugtop allows us to have similar sized leads as the europeans.
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You are confused about the current a cable can safely carry continuously and the short circuit current the cable can safely handle.
For instance the 0.75mm rated at 6 amp would in fact have adequate short circuit protection via a 13 amp fused plug top.
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The original specification for a RFC was a to serve a maximum area of 100 sq. yrds., and that the number of spurs could not exceed the number of sockets on the ring.
This often lead to a complete ring being installed on the first floor, with a spur from every socket to a socket on the ground floor.
Yes, understood, although this again would leave no flexibility for future changes, ie would need to expand the ring in order to add extra sockets. I was referring to the practice of making a ring using wagos in the backboxes and wiring in each socket on 2.5 flex so each one would be a spur off the ring. Seems to me it would be just adding loads of extra connections in the backbox that really don't need to be there...there are perfectly good terminals on the socket...and no opportunity to add extra sockets as spurs at some point in the future.
I may not fully understand but if you can pull the original FRC wires back into the [back]box then you can expand the FRC in the future. Saves work now at the expense of a more difficult possible future renovation.
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Just caught up with this thread!
Wagos are great, but I don't like the idea of adding an additional conections on a RFC just so someone can come along later, with pre wired sockets and spur them off of the ring. Is this really what people do so they can and save a few seconds? if this is what people have to result too to make money then there is an issue somewhere, people that work like this just add to it!
Wagos are not busbars, they don't have busbars inside, they have a cage clamp looking at their data they are tested to EC 60947, 60998 and more specifically IEC 60999-1:1999.
Wagos are great, but I don't like the idea of adding an additional conections on a RFC just so someone can come along later, with pre wired sockets and spur them off of the ring. Is this really what people do so they can and save a few seconds? if this is what people have to result too to make money then there is an issue somewhere, people that work like this just add to it!
Wagos are not busbars, they don't have busbars inside, they have a cage clamp looking at their data they are tested to EC 60947, 60998 and more specifically IEC 60999-1:1999.
It does not often lead to that. That is an exception.
Reply to Wagos on Final Ring Circuits in the Electrical Wiring, Theories and Regulations area at ElectriciansForums.net
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