What EICR code for plastic trunking in escape routes?

[KevinH]

Hi to all. I'm new and this is my first post.
I'm doing an EICR on a 3 story building split into multiple offices to let.
One thing I noticed is t+e cables in plastic trunking almost throughout (switch/socket drops, across ceilings to lights etc).
Would this be a code 2 or 3? Also would same code be throughout or just in escape routes?
I understand it could potentially be dangerous (causing entanglement when melting/falling etc), but surely an EICR is regarding electrical safety and as far as I can see the installation is electrically safe!
Any views as it would be a massive job to correct.
Surely if its a C2 then most commercial buildings in the country would fail?
Should I just C3 it and suggest landlord gets a fire safety report done?

 

[Ian1981]

The idea of the reg as I have said is a good one, I am all for it, but telling thosands of people their homes are suddenly dangerous and not insurable due to a new reg stinks IMO, I understand all new homes need to adhere to this, and agree with it, but when a EICR is carried out on a home for sale for example and this is put in as a c2, it means the house need to have work done to it before it can get sold and that IMO due to a new reg is wrong, the coding should be a C3 not up to current regulations and no more.

A plaster board ceiling in a dwelling gives 30minutes fire protection so as I said before the likelihood of finding a C2 in a dwelling is slim.
It’s more to do with escape routes in communal areas , offices public buildings etc where cables may run above say a suspended ceiling.

 

[MDJ]

A plaster board ceiling in a dwelling gives 30minutes fire protection so as I said before the likelihood of finding a C2 in a dwelling is slim.
It’s more to do with escape routes in communal areas , offices public buildings etc where cable may run above say a susp
.

Yeah I get that bit, about the plasterboard ceiling, I have seen plenty of houses with trunking around them though, usually council, it would mean lots of work to be done and no insurance, hence they C3 rather than C2 which would mean possibly no insurance.

 

[MDJ]

It doesn't have to be a big job though Mike - a catenary wire spanned above a suspended ceiling with a few metal cable ties on it, and lives could be saved. What is so bad about that?

Nothing bad about it, but seriously is it a C2? why not a C1 then? surely it has to be a C3

 

[Ian1981]

Yeah I get that bit, about the plasterboard ceiling, I have seen plenty of houses with trunking around them though, usually council, it would mean lots of work to be done and no insurance, hence they C3 rather than C2 which would mean possibly no insurance.

I would not C2 one piece of trunking.
However meters upon meters of cable running above a suspended ceiling unsupported and a serious risk of falling ,I would C2 all day long.

 

[Ian1981]

Nothing bad about it, but seriously is it a C2? why not a C1 then? surely it has to be a C3

Not a C1 because there’s no immediate risk of life.
However there’s potentially a risk so C2.
C3 safety recommended but yeah just get on with your life’s and leave it , in a nutshell.

It’s what I believe anyway reading upon it and I haven’t been persuaded to change my views as yet.
Will be interesting when the words escape route is dropped By the 18th edition and all the installation will require non combustible supports.
What to code then?

 

[Deleted member 26818]

Forget about the new Regulation.
This situation has always warranted a code C2, just the same as any other situation which could present a danger.
So now they’ve brought out a specific Regulation for this scenario.
Now not only does it present a danger, it is also a non-compliance.
So give it a code C3 for non-compliance, then give it a code C2 for presenting a danger.

 

[Marvo]

Thanks Lee.
Please guys try be a bit more civil and a bit less abrasive.

 

[MDJ]

My profound apologies

 

[GBDamo]

Going to embarrass my self now but, suspended ceiling?

We are talking about the metal grid type suspended by metal wires from the fabric of the building. How badly does this fail in a fire and how quickly?

My brief google on the subject suggested the tile and grid should maintain structural integrity for between 30 and 60 minutes i.e. as long as a plasterboard ceiling.

I get the maxi trunking with twenty T&Es above a fire escape route but above suspended ceilings.

Would you really secure KILK flexis, PIR cables and the like? I have not seen one suspended ceiling that doesn't have a rats nest of data and lighting wires strewn across it.

where does it stop?

 

[Ian1981]

A fire risk assessment is the only way to know for sure however suspended ceilings are often penetrated throughout with various items fixed to/ through them including light fittings,signage etc and broken/missing tiles.
I wouldn’t imagine a suspended ceiling can be used as a fire compartment but again when installing and assessing the fire risk on a building a fire risk assessment will identify the requirements.
It’s obviously been highlighted as an issue.

 

[Octopus]

UK sparks are not trained to undertake fire risks and therefore checks abve ceilings should not be under our remit .......

Just saying

 

[Toneyz]

C2? rollox, there would be hundreds of millions of pounds worth of urgent work required in hundreds of thousands of properties, C3 at best, it was perfectly safe before they updated the Regs lol, the world wasn't going to end then.

But sadly it did for some firefighters.

 

[Ian1981]

UK sparks are not trained to undertake fire risks and therefore checks abve ceilings should not be under our remit .......

Just saying

Because the cables run above and are easily accessible and electrical accessories and equipment are housed often above them then I’m afraid we would be negligent in not lifting up the ceiling tiles in my opinion.
If they were not accessible I’d agree
I agree on the fire risk point tho we often need to check that fire protection say between 2 floors in a riser housing electrical equipment such as the consumer units are fire sealed and fire compartments are not breached by cables passing through them.
They go on my report anyway.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

I would not expect a suspended ceiling grid to have any real fire rating.
Whenever I install lights into a suspended ceiling, I try to keep the flexes off the grid by passing them over pipes, ducts, fan coil units etc.

 

[Ian1981]

Quite often you find the original cable tray above the suspended ceilings, all alterations and editions to the wiring are obvious because the altered cables are just flung across the ceiling not supported and even tie wrapped to air conditioning pipework.
Lovely job.

 

[Octopus]

Quite often you find the original cable tray above the suspended ceilings, all alterations and editions to the wiring are obvious because the altered cables are just flung across the ceiling not supported and even tie wrapped to air conditioning pipework.
Lovely job.

Never a truer statement made

why do people think that chucking unsupported cables is a good idea?

 

[Ian1981]

Never a truer statement made

why do people think that chucking unsupported cables is a good idea?

The sad truth is people just don’t care!
Get in ,get out, get paid ,---- job

 

[Adam W]

With any luck a change to the regulations will bring home the message that it's unacceptable to simply fling cables over the ceiling grid, maybe even slow this 'race to the bottom' where uninitiated clients opt for the cheapest quote where the cowboys are planning to cut corners by not bothering with any containment.

It's actually already in the regs somewhere that you mustn't rely on other services to support your cables, partly because if the pipes or ceiling grid are taken down for an unrelated reason there'll be nothing supporting the cables at all and they'll just drape across the floor.

If the idea that you shouldn't do it because it's lazy and unprofessional isn't enough, maybe the idea that it's also dangerous will help.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

With ceiling grids, the lights, smoke detectors, PIRs, etc. are installed after the ceiling is put up.
Even with step ladders, the height you can reach above the grid is restricted, so if the real ceiling is more than a meter above the false ceiling you are not going to be able to fix cables to anything other than existing services.
There is also the problem, that many lighting systems in false ceilings use Lighting Control Modules which the light fittings are plugged into.
The purpose being they can be unplugged to be replaced so tying the flexes onto containment is not an option.
Worrying about other services being removed is a bit pointless, as to remove them would entail first removing the ceiling grid and light fittings.

 

[ForkEnigma]

No cables are exposed as all are contained within trunking throughout the installation.
So you guys are saying I give it a C3 ? Im assuming that just applies to the escape routes (stairwells/corridoors etc) as per 521.11.201 and no coding for trunking across ceilings in all rooms.

Is this reg still valid?

 

[Risteard]

In most circumstances I apply a C2 for this. There would need to be exceptional circumstances for me to conclude that it wasn't potentially dangerous and therefore only C3.

 

[cliffed]

When we did the 18th @ college we sat in a classroom with a suspended ceiling,& asked the lecturer about the cabling above us supported by cable ties to the hangers.
He replied the ceiling is fire resistance for so many hours so no other fixings required....??

 

[Deleted account]

C2 by definition. It is potentially dangerous due to premature collapse in the event of a fire.

 

[Mike Johnson]

C2 by definition. It is potentially dangerous due to premature collapse in the event of a fire.

Why would it prematurely collapse, it has to be put up in accordance with the building regulations which require a ceiling to have a fire rating, all of this speculation is assuming that electricians has sufficient knowledge of the fire regulations to make an assessment of the danger, this is a specialist subject that any electrician should not get involved with IMO not part of the remit.

 

[i=p/u]

Make sure ceiling earthed nevermind thinking about fires..

I dont believe rules should be retrospective here and c3 should be appropriate. As when this stuff was installed it was signed off somewhere as fine.

 

[DPG]

Make sure ceiling earthed nevermind thinking about fires..

I dont believe rules should be retrospective here and c3 should be appropriate. As when this stuff was installed it was signed off somewhere as fine.

Are you saying the ceiling grid sections should be earthed?

 

[i=p/u]

Aye get it earthed

 

[DPG]

Aye get it earthed

And, assuming it was needed, how would you ensure continuity to each piece of metal grid strip?

 

[i=p/u]

I'm reading and says not todo it since 2005, I'm sure I've had todo it and seen it done few times... instructed todo it ...

 

[DPG]

I'm reading and says not todo it since 2005, I'm sure I've had todo it and seen it done few times... instructed todo it ...

But even if the grid metalwork did need earthing (or bonding), how could you ensure every strip is connected adequately. You would need earth links bolted between each separate piece, otherwise any contact is just fortuitous.

Crazy.