Search the forum,

Discuss What kind of motor is this? in the UK Electrical Forum area at ElectriciansForums.net

Lucien Nunes

-
Mentor
Esteemed
Arms
Reaction score
13,475
Interesting old machine still in use. I've talked about similar motors before but not this type AFAIK. To the trained eye, the shape of this one is a giveaway, from which you can identify its maker and the technology it uses, and probably say something about the available electrical supply. In any case the shape should tell you something. Note that the bare aluminium covers are non standard, these would normally be steel mesh vent grilles.

Motor.jpg
 
old DC motor
Not an unreasonable deduction, but this one won't work on DC at all, not even badly.
 
I am suspecting it is a brushed motor of sorts.
 
Slip ring induction.
Another good inference, but no sliprings to be found here. And your logic is correct, it can't be universal as that would run on DC.

a brushed motor of sorts
Yes, it does have brushes.
 
Nope, not synchronous
 
Is it Stepper motor, I'm guessing because of the handle.

I meant I thought Tel's van had a starting handle!!

Is it rotor resistance controlled.

No, and all the rotor-resistance controlled motors I've ever seen have had sliprings so would have been a positive result for your previous question about that.

Split-phase (180 degree) on a farm?

As far as motors are concerned, a split-phase supply is generally used as a single-phase supply of the higher voltage. So a 230-0-230 installation would have 460V single-phase motors of otherwise ordinary construction. As it happens, this motor could optionally be used on 460V so there is a slight clue here, although not in any way to do with farming.

Historically there were special 2-phase motors for 2-phase supplies (note this is different to using two phases from a 3-phase supply as they were usually 90° apart) but again not relevant here.

Yes it's old, but we have plenty of older plant in use so not exceptional at least in my sphere.

Keep on with suggestions but I've got a meeting soon so might not reply for a while.
 
As a teenager I once worked on the repair of an ac repulsion motor which had a wound rotor with commutator and brushes whose axis was displaced by a few degrees from the field axis, the field coil being supplied directly by mains ac supply. The brushes were shorted I seem to remember. And I vaguely remember the displacement of the brushes could be changed by a handle for speed control.
It powered a butcher's screw meat mincer. Is the image of a similar motor? And made by BTH?
 
Last edited:
Well Marconi is close enough that I have to give it to him. Yes, made by BTH, yes brushes are shorted together and run on a comm to create rotor repulsion, yes power is applied to stator only. However, repulsion is only used for starting - it's a Repulsion-Start, Induction-Run (RSIR or R/I) machine.

There are two ways to do this. Century and others in the USA, used a centrifugal mechanism like the starting switch of a split-phase induction, but instead of operating a switch, as the motor approaches full speed it does two things. It triggers a spring-loaded actuator that lifts the brushes off the comm (to save wear) and puts a shorting ring around all the commutator segments to convert the armature into the equivalent of a squirrel cage.

This BT-H (then part of AEI) avoids the centrifugal mechanism by having two windings on the rotor. The repulsion winding brought out to the commutator, and a separate squirrel cage. At a standstill, the high slip frequency puts the cage current out of phase due to its inductance (which is why inductions typically have poor starting torque.) But the repulsion winding takes over and accelerates the motor, at a speed and direction controlled as Marconi mentions, by the setting of the brush rocker. As the speed increases and the slip frequency reduces, the cage torque dominates and the relative placing of the windings in the slots causes the magnetic flux to bypass the repulsion winding, so the motor runs as an induction. Unlike the Century there is still brush wear, but it is low because the brushes are passing minimal current.

Why go to all this complication to start an induction motor? Simply because repulsion motors have excellent starting characteristics. Smooth and torquey, without the excessive line current required by other starting methods, despite being single-phase (which were always inferior to 3-phase at starting). RSIRs handle high inertia loads and starting against full torque, but once running they are not as efficient as inductions and lack the near-constant speed. Hence, to deal with difficult loads with only single-phase power available, start as induction for best torque and lowest overcurrent, then run as induction for best efficiency and stability.

I've no idea why Tel sees it heading to the skip. It's worked fine for 80 years and will probably be good for another 80. I'm sure skips will have been banned by then.

I don't even know which part of the photo we are looking at

The round thing bottom centre :)
 
LN is a master at framing his image. Why for example:

1. Is there a box with vents? (Which looks newer vintage to the motor.)
2. are there 3 lengths of vertical conduit?
3. are there 2 lengths of flexi conduit going under the box with vents?
4. do the connections to the motor (middle conduit) not directly connect to the vented box?
5. Where do the 3 vertical conduits end up?
6. Is the bottle a clue?
 
I think our posts crossed! If you know organ blowers, there are indeed lots of clues.

1. Transformer-rectifier for the 18V DC electric action. Yes it's newer.
2. To keep it off the floor, it's run across the ceiling.
3. No specific reason.
4. No, quite separate.
5. Motor supply from DOL starter, rectifier supply from contactor, rectifier output to DC busbars
6. Incidental. There are often old bottles of oil in organ blower rooms.

Organ clues include the Watkins & Watson shaft coupling, tantalising glimpse of flexible coupling top right, a similar hint of wind trunking, ancient masonry and age of plant. Organ blowers have a very high moment of inertia and have to start against heavier load that is usual for a fan or pump (because they are rated to work against backpressure and can overload the motor when filling the reservoirs). Hence the preference for an RSIR where there is no 3-phase supply.
 
LN is a master at framing his image. Why for example:

1. Is there a box with vents? (Which looks newer vintage to the motor.)
2. are there 3 lengths of vertical conduit?
3. are there 2 lengths of flexi conduit going under the box with vents?
4. do the connections to the motor (middle conduit) not directly connect to the vented box?
5. Where do the 3 vertical conduits end up?
6. Is the bottle a clue?

I think our posts crossed! If you know organ blowers, there are indeed lots of clues.

1. Transformer-rectifier for the 18V DC electric action. Yes it's newer.
2. To keep it off the floor, it's run across the ceiling.
3. No specific reason.
4. No, quite separate.
5. Motor supply from DOL starter, rectifier supply from contactor, rectifier output to DC busbars
6. Incidental. There are often old bottles of oil in organ blower rooms.

Organ clues include the Watkins & Watson shaft coupling, tantalising glimpse of flexible coupling top right, a similar hint of wind trunking, ancient masonry and age of plant. Organ blowers have a very high moment of inertia and have to start against heavier load that is usual for a fan or pump (because they are rated to work against backpressure and can overload the motor when filling the reservoirs). Hence the preference for an RSIR where there is no 3-phase supply.

It's great watching the two masters spar! It's like Bobby Fisher (Marconi) and Kasparov (LN)!
 
ps.. My apologies LN but I did not remove the CU containing the 45A mem fuse holder so I cannot send it to you. :(
 
Well Marconi is close enough that I have to give it to him. Yes, made by BTH, yes brushes are shorted together and run on a comm to create rotor repulsion, yes power is applied to stator only. However, repulsion is only used for starting - it's a Repulsion-Start, Induction-Run (RSIR or R/I) machine.

There are two ways to do this. Century and others in the USA, used a centrifugal mechanism like the starting switch of a split-phase induction, but instead of operating a switch, as the motor approaches full speed it does two things. It triggers a spring-loaded actuator that lifts the brushes off the comm (to save wear) and puts a shorting ring around all the commutator segments to convert the armature into the equivalent of a squirrel cage.

This BT-H (then part of AEI) avoids the centrifugal mechanism by having two windings on the rotor. The repulsion winding brought out to the commutator, and a separate squirrel cage. At a standstill, the high slip frequency puts the cage current out of phase due to its inductance (which is why inductions typically have poor starting torque.) But the repulsion winding takes over and accelerates the motor, at a speed and direction controlled as Marconi mentions, by the setting of the brush rocker. As the speed increases and the slip frequency reduces, the cage torque dominates and the relative placing of the windings in the slots causes the magnetic flux to bypass the repulsion winding, so the motor runs as an induction. Unlike the Century there is still brush wear, but it is low because the brushes are passing minimal current.

Why go to all this complication to start an induction motor? Simply because repulsion motors have excellent starting characteristics. Smooth and torquey, without the excessive line current required by other starting methods, despite being single-phase (which were always inferior to 3-phase at starting). RSIRs handle high inertia loads and starting against full torque, but once running they are not as efficient as inductions and lack the near-constant speed. Hence, to deal with difficult loads with only single-phase power available, start as induction for best torque and lowest overcurrent, then run as induction for best efficiency and stability.

I've no idea why Tel sees it heading to the skip. It's worked fine for 80 years and will probably be good for another 80. I'm sure skips will have been banned by then.



The round thing bottom centre :)

Clearer now Happyhippydad..?
 
I did not remove the CU containing the 45A mem fuse holder

No worries, people keep your eyes peeled for good examples of Wylex CUs with a 45A rewireable in. Especially the type with the separate 45A way the opposite side of the main switch. Also the E7 one with normal and off-peak in the same box.

Anyway, here's a pic of a 3hp BTH RSIR of my own and its plate. Not sure why I can't delete the duplicate pics, but I have a beer to drink so it will have to do.

other 3hp RSIR plate.jpg


other 3hp RSIR.jpg


View attachment 49710

View attachment 49711
 
Last edited by a moderator:
some cast iron control gear for vetilation equipment recently,

Any pics? Interested if 1930s or earlier, or unusual design etc.
 
Hmm, another duplicate post deleted, not sure why these are happening.
 
Last edited:
It’s obviously steam powered, the wire is actually a pipe and there is a self contained boiler in the enclosure at the rear.
Neither Fleming’s Left or Right hand rules apply here.
 
Handy little motor, not sure why they weren't more popular over here. He describes it as a repulsion induction, but I think it's full-time repulsion as it always remains under the control of the brush rocker.
 
That motor is repulsive.
Needs a make over.
My late father used to tell a tale about a call to a factory where there was a long bench with lots of sewing machines driven off a line shaft - and with a motor at the end to drive it. He opened the lid of the enclosure expecting to find it solid with lint - but instead found it spotlessly clean.
One of the machinists explained that every Friday they had a cleanup session and always included inside the box with the motor - especially the bright brass bit. Yes, they were polishing the commutator on a running motor :eek:
 
That's not unheard of, Grinding and polishing a comm in the machine's own bearings as it runs, although usually by experienced sparks and 'dynamo attendants.' Normally though, it just needs the dust and carbon blowing out, no actual polishing is necessary, it just leads to excess wear, as the brown oxide coating that builds up is much tougher than the bare metal. Commutation is one of those things that is best experienced in operation, you can tell a lot about the adjustment and condition of the machine and suitability of the brush grade etc by seeing, hearing and feeling. The strapline at the bottom of the in-service maintenance pages of some popular plant used to be 'Use Your Fingers!'
 
Oh yes, machining etc of the comm in situ - great, and done with the power off ?
Untrained people cleaning and polishing the motor while it's powered and running, that's a different matter :eek:
 
Repulsion type,with brush gear and com, used on early type compressor needing good starting torque.
That reminded me that there was a large cast iron oil filled motor starter for a wound rotor motor in a local laundry basement that once fed a compressor, sadly the motor and compressor are long gone, but the air receiver sill remains. Still full of (probably hazardous) oil, had a manufacture date of 1949 IIRC. I wonder if it is still there. Had a little hand wheel to operate the variable resistors for starting, still turned ok. Fed from a large adjacent Memajor switchfuse all wired in poly butyl jute cables in 1 1/2 steel conduit.

How do I remember stupid details like that from years ago but can't remember important things that are happening right now?
 
One of my earliest jobs was working in a small brick factory in the Cotswolds. Every morning my first job was to start the motor that ran all the machinery through an overhead pulley system.

This was a hefty beast, from memory it was a least a couple of feet diameter and was controlled by a big cast steel switch box on the wall This had a lever with four positions, and I had to stand there while the rest of the crew sat around smoking and drinking tea, and move the lever through each position in turn.

There was no gauge or anything, I judged by ear when the revs were high enough to move up.

I wonder if anyone could tell me exactly what I was doing? This would have been in the early 60s.
 
Could have been some combination of tap changing and star delta.
But in that era, the aforementioned slip ring induction motor with variable rotor resistance would be a good candidate - I'm assuming it was started unloaded but with a massive inertia of drive lines & pulleys to wind up.
With a large resistance across the brushes, the rotor current is limited - so torque is vastly reduced, but so is stator current.
So did the first notch set it slowly tunning up like there's all the time in the world ? Then the next notch add a bit of urgency ? Until it's up to speed and can go to the last notch where the rotor is shorted and it runs as a normal squirrel cage motor.
Presumably, you had to learn by ear how fast it needed to be running before you could go to the next step without blowing fuses ?
 
Could have been some combination of tap changing and star delta.
But in that era, the aforementioned slip ring induction motor with variable rotor resistance would be a good candidate - I'm assuming it was started unloaded but with a massive inertia of drive lines & pulleys to wind up.
With a large resistance across the brushes, the rotor current is limited - so torque is vastly reduced, but so is stator current.
So did the first notch set it slowly tunning up like there's all the time in the world ? Then the next notch add a bit of urgency ? Until it's up to speed and can go to the last notch where the rotor is shorted and it runs as a normal squirrel cage motor.
Presumably, you had to learn by ear how fast it needed to be running before you could go to the next step without blowing fuses ?
You got it exactly, although it didn't blow a fuse, it just cut out at the switch and I had to start again with much mockery from the others

. It was started as you say with the overhead shafts turning, but all the drive belts were disengaged. We just slipped the belt off the side of the pulley to stop a machine - no guards to get in the way.
 
Standard setup with lineshafts is to have dual.pulleys on the driven end of each take off belt. One pulley is free running on it's shaft, the other drives it. So starting/stopping machines is a matter of throwing the belt from one pulley to the other - where it will stay on it's own thanks to the crowning on the two pulleys. In posh safety concious setups there may be a mechanism for doing it, otherwise it's done carefully with a stick to push on the side of the belt :eek:
 
A.k.a 'fast and loose' pulleys, fast as in fixed rather than quick.
As Simon says there were a number of different arrangements for starting a motor manually. Resistance starters, such as a rotor resistance for an AC motor or armature resistance for DC, would often have more than two intermediate steps, so it seems more likely to have been an autotransformer starter and you were changing voltage taps. But there were certainly some resistance starters with just a couple of steps so anything is possible.

Another possibility is that it was a synchronous motor, which was a popular choice for larger drives to keep the power factor up (and even compensate for low power factor elsewhere, by running it over-excited). In that case, the steps might have been off, star, delta, synch, but something that sophisticated would probably have merited an ammeter.

I wish I could get one of these installations complete to rig up in the museum workshop. It's a way off. I have a nice big DC motor with 8" belt pulley, something like 50hp at 110V although the plate is missing. I think it served in a wood shop, it was packed with sawdust to the point that the armature appeared to be wound with MDF. Unfortunately no suitable starter for it, although I might be getting a couple of cast iron starting pillars - the kind with drum controllers with handles on the side, and glass windows - so if we are very lucky one might have suitable resistances and coil voltages. It would run nicely off one of the mercury arcs or DC gensets.
 

Reply to What kind of motor is this? in the UK Electrical Forum area at ElectriciansForums.net

Similar Threads

Hello all, I've just been perusing the AM2/E/S threads on here. Thought you might like a bit of a review. If, like I did, you find yourself...
Replies
7
Views
2K
I mean.... the best and the easiest to use. I remember back in the 2000's I used a serial interface, I think it was the printer serial port, 25...
Replies
166
Views
15K
S
Both Basic & Fault Protection SELV – if anything is provided by SELV, this gets a tick, otherwise N/A. Examples would be 12v extractor fan or 12v...
Replies
1
Views
7K
R
Hi BiggsSolar I have read many of your posts and you come across as a professional person who wants to do the right thing, both for your...
Replies
0
Views
2K
rt1200
R
G
Many thanks to ukpablo for finding and posting this in a thread. Thought it would be a useful "sticky.:) Here's a quick guide to what the...
Replies
12
Views
32K
moospark
M

OFFICIAL SPONSORS

Electrical Goods - Electrical Tools - Brand Names Electrician Courses Green Electrical Goods PCB Way Electrical Goods - Electrical Tools - Brand Names Pushfit Wire Connectors Electric Underfloor Heating Electrician Courses
These Official Forum Sponsors May Provide Discounts to Regular Forum Members - If you would like to sponsor us then CLICK HERE and post a thread with who you are, and we'll send you some stats etc

YOUR Unread Posts

This website was designed, optimised and is hosted by untold.media Operating under the name Untold Media since 2001.
Back
Top