Who Are You?

[trev]

Your gratitude is noted and appreciated Andy

 

[jimmymac]

In order that the engineer/not an engineer debate could be settled once and for all beyond all reasonable doubt I have tirelessly searched the interwebs for more than 5 minutes. This is the result of my extensive research and imo there can be no doubt.
You are either an engineer or you are not.
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&r...=lrq1yfHWkvzPuBXgq5UqXg&bvm=bv.82001339,d.ZGU

A pessimist says the glass is half empty,
An optimist says the glass is half full,
An Engineer says the glass is twice the size it should be.

 

[Slowhand]

A pessimist says the glass is half empty,
An optimist says the glass is half full,
An Engineer says the glass is twice the size it should be.

An electrician says he's not bothered cos its your round next ;-)

 

[shanky887614]

A pessimist says the glass is half empty,
An optimist says the glass is half full,
An Engineer says the glass is twice the size it should be.

a realist says, is that pi$$?

 

[Guest77]

And a chimp says bollox regardless

 

[Knobhead]

Still on the wagon Mike?

 

[Guest77]

yeah and no fella, once a week now I have 4 or 5 ciders, that is about it at the moment.

 

[telectrix]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qii499Pfwc0

 

[rustynails]

I've never completed an apprenticeship but wish I had, just for that little piece of paper I could shove down the throats of some people who do not view people taking short courses as electricians. These people are just a**holes because heaven forbid I might turn up and do a better job for less as I work faster and are more driven as a younger, newer electrician. I appreciate that the drive wears off but I wouldn't turn my nose up at some one unless after meeting them it was clear that they didn't have a brain. I took a route from the DIY/builder option did the 17th, 2382, registered with elecsa, went and got some more experience, went back and completed 2394/2395/2377/2399, first time. So It annoys me when I see more experienced sparkies and the sparkies lemmings, who don't take pride in the work they have been awarded, often coming in like a bull in a china shop and leaving like a bull with a red hot poker shoved up it's ---, all for the thrill of going down the pub on Friday to brag about the 20k job he's just nailed out in 3 days. You need to be quick but safe.

 

[Knobhead]

And those of us that have completed a full and proper apprenticeship wish the Electrical Trainee’s weren’t in the game.

I have my indentures signed and sealed and the experience to match.

You wonder why I don’t like someone calling themselves an “electrician” five weeks after they were stacking shelves in Tesco?

 

[Deleted account]

My experience is very similar to yours rusty nails. I did all the courses. It took over 3 years. C&G L2 &L3 17th part p periodic etc...then did 2 years doing minor works and a few notifiable jobs for which I paid building control £160 a piece to sign off. I then applied to join NICEIC, I had my inspection everything went well and I got registered. I have been registered for over 2 years now. I worked bl**dy hard to get to this stage and am doing good. I Consider myself just as good a domestic installer as anyone who has gone thru the apprentice route, if not better as you need to learn very quick with little or no backup.
Believe me I would have rather have gone thru the apprentice route as it would have been much cheaper and easier, but all these electricians who moan about the so called easy quick route don't seem willing to take on apprentices any more.

How else are we to get qualified?

how are we going to deal with the massive shortage of electricians at the moment?

i totally agree apprentices are the best option. Maybe they should be the only option. But there are non or not enough.

 

[Darkwood]

I've never completed an apprenticeship but wish I had, just for that little piece of paper I could shove down the throats of some people who do not view people taking short courses as electricians. These people are just a**holes because heaven forbid I might turn up and do a better job for less as I work faster and are more driven as a younger, newer electrician. I appreciate that the drive wears off but I wouldn't turn my nose up at some one unless after meeting them it was clear that they didn't have a brain. I took a route from the DIY/builder option did the 17th, 2382, registered with elecsa, went and got some more experience, went back and completed 2394/2395/2377/2399, first time. So It annoys me when I see more experienced sparkies and the sparkies lemmings, who don't take pride in the work they have been awarded, often coming in like a bull in a china shop and leaving like a bull with a red hot poker shoved up it's ---, all for the thrill of going down the pub on Friday to brag about the 20k job he's just nailed out in 3 days. You need to be quick but safe.

Whether it be old pro's new Electrical Trainee or the middle ground, your always going to find those that do a rough job and really don't know their --- from their elbow but you have to understand the general consensus here in that a Electrical Trainee cannot be what used to be a well educated, respected and appreciated title of been an Electrican. The required knowledge and experience that was needed long before the Electrical Trainee ever existed was high and came with a low pass rate.... Nowadays you can be maths iliterate have no real knowledge of physics and still pass these courses, this in itself is evidence of how much its dumbed down... so

Have you been taught about motors and there controls
Have you passed a course section on MICC and how to terminate it
Have you done a course section on fault finding, recognising symptoms and dangers associated with them
Have you been taught how to design a full factory lighting install using various systems, contactors, inductive peak inrush calcs of multiple fittings etc
Have you been educated in how to interpret and apply to site standard building plans
Have you been fully prep'd on the building regs

The list goes on but before I carry on I make a point that most of the above list has now been dropped from the full term college courses and has to be taken as advanced courses where available, so for someone to tell me that the highly respected title of Electrician I earned over 4 years of block release has not only been dumbed down on the full course but has and even more shockingly been chopped down for a Electrical Trainee course then yes It disgruntles me.. It is not a personal attack on you but your just a victim of the system, anyone doing a Electrical Trainee course and hitting the domestic sector to me is nothing more than a domestic installer... just enough info to wire a house and no more.

You cannot cram 3 - 4 yrs into 5 weeks without stripping it down a lot, one of my block release was typically 4-5 weeks long 5 or 6 times a year for 4 years ... that makes my training times actually in college 20x longer than a Electrical Trainee so I ask you to put yourself in my shoes and others on here like Tony who see the full courses dumbed down and these magic Electrical Trainee instant spark course produce 'Electricians' who believe they are somehow equivalent in education and knowledge and I say that negating our experience so as not to use it as an advantage.

If we were Chef's here its like we learned how to dish up a michelin class meal and now we watch the new generation with the abilities to work only in a school canteen yet still think they acheived the same in college as we did because the title is the same.... sadly this is not the case.

I personally don't turn my nose up at any individual whatever course they did but if they are Electrical Trainee they have to realise they are nothing like educated to the same level as the full term set, these courses were designed for people with existing electrical knowledge and background as a means just to get the paperwork and polish off what they already know unfortunately the scam providers abused it with false advertising and aiming at the wrong sector of people wirh no knowledge or experience, so I take offense when anyone choosing this route somehow puts themselves on the same par as the full coursed people, if you respect your education route has only given you limited Electrical knowledge then I have no issue but it a big bug bear when you find Electrical Trainee and even full term qualified not understanding basic theory and reflecting it in there question ... we would have never passed not knowing some of the questions posted on here yet its all becoming to familiar and the norm sadly.

 

[Darkwood]

My experience is very similar to yours rusty nails. I did all the courses. It took over 3 years. C&G L2 &L3 17th part p periodic etc...then did 2 years doing minor works and a few notifiable jobs for which I paid building control £160 a piece to sign off. I then applied to join NICEIC, I had my inspection everything went well and I got registered. I have been registered for over 2 years now. I worked bl**dy hard to get to this stage and am doing good. I Consider myself just as good a domestic installer as anyone who has gone thru the apprentice route, if not better as you need to learn very quick with little or no backup.
Believe me I would have rather have gone thru the apprentice route as it would have been much cheaper and easier, but all these electricians who moan about the so called easy quick route don't seem willing to take on apprentices any more.

How else are we to get qualified?

how are we going to deal with the massive shortage of electricians at the moment?

i totally agree apprentices are the best option. Maybe they should be the only option. But there are non or not enough.

Excuse me! What shortage, the domestic market is now saturated because of these courses and wages driven down to the lowest in the building trade from what was once the highest, when wages start shooting up then you will know there's a shortage as demand pushing them up, the only sector getting a black hole is the Electrical Engineering and true Industrial sparky because the old are retiring and we have a 20yr gap in trained Engineers creating a massive shortfall.

 

[Deleted account]

Excuse me! What shortage, the domestic market is now saturated because of these courses and wages driven down to the lowest in the building trade from what was once the highest, when wages start shooting up then you will know there's a shortage as demand pushing them up, the only sector getting a black hole is the Electrical Engineering and true Industrial sparky because the old are retiring and we have a 20yr gap in trained Engineers creating a massive shortfall.

If if there is no shortage why is there so much work in the domestic market? Why do I constanly get comments from customers thanking me for just answering the phone or replying or even turning up for a quote.? I feel I am the only person out there responding to customers sometimes. Maybe it's because I am willing to do the small jobs as well as the larger that I get so much work. I don't know. I know it's not that I am cheap. I know my worth and charge accordingly.

maybe it's different where you are.

 

[Darkwood]

If if there is no shortage why is there so much work in the domestic market? Why do I constanly get comments from customers thanking me for just answering the phone or replying or even turning up for a quote.? I feel I am the only person out there responding to customers sometimes. Maybe it's because I am willing to do the small jobs as well as the larger that I get so much work. I don't know. I know it's not that I am cheap. I know my worth and charge accordingly.

maybe it's different where you are.

If thats the case then you are blessed with having your own niche area of a large customer base with little competition but the general theme is the domestic is saturated as I said the going rate would be substantially higher otherwise which it isn't.

 

[TheHUNTED]

If if there is no shortage why is there so much work in the domestic market? Why do I constanly get comments from customers thanking me for just answering the phone or replying or even turning up for a quote.? I feel I am the only person out there responding to customers sometimes. Maybe it's because I am willing to do the small jobs as well as the larger that I get so much work. I don't know. I know it's not that I am cheap. I know my worth and charge accordingly.

maybe it's different where you are.

There is a shortage of electricians in the domestic sector, but not in short course domestic installers. As DW says, its littered with them so you are trying to compete with their stupidly low prices.

Apprenticeships are great by the way. You dunno what you're missing!

 

[Engineer54]

how are we going to deal with the massive shortage of electricians at the moment?

Massive shortage of electricians in the domestic sector, you've got to be having a laugh!! lol!! The only people that have ever been throwing that little gem around is the 17 day/Electrical Trainee training centres!! They also throw in the part P crap and the pat testing sham of a cert. So i'm now wondering!!!

 

[Essex_]

If thats the case then you are blessed with having your own niche area of a large customer base with little competition but the general theme is the domestic is saturated as I said the going rate would be substantially higher otherwise which it isn't.

Or the home owners would just 'live with' problems or not get that extension they were always talking about.

 

[Deleted account]

I think we have gone off topic here a bit, but before this thread is put back to "who are you?" I'd like to add a couple of points.

Even though I didn't come thru the apprentice route I strongly agree that it is the best route and a route I would have preferred. Your right TheHunted I don't know what I missed, but would have liked to.

It has been said that the market is flooded with electrical installers which is driving the price down and if there was a shortage the prices would rocket. I am thinking maybe that's exactly what some electricians want. Hence the shortage of apprentices? So Im now wondering!!!

I charge £45 for the first hour and £25 per hour thereafter or £200 day rate plus materials at cost plus 10-25% and I am happy with that and I get enough work. How much more do I need? Yes I would love a pay rise, but that would not happen if prices increased.

If I charge more (you are right Essex) the customers would just live with the problems and not get electrical work done or worse do it themselves ( nearly always the cheapest option) if capable or not.

 

[jonny705]

Orginal post by
spinlondon

'When I left the RAF, I attempted to join the JIB, as I believed it was the correct course of action for the work I intended to do.
Unfortunately, they informed me that my qualifications, apprenticeship and experience were not acceptable.
They told me that I would have to first obtain civilian qualifications.
During my 2 year course for the 2360, I discovered that there was no necessecity for me to join the JIB, however I continued and completed the course, as I had paid up front.
I subsequently some years later found that I required the JIB/ECS card to be able to work on the majority of building sites. So taking the course was in fact some use.
However even today the JIB card is not necessary for domestic work, and is not even accepted for conducting EICRs by LABCs and many Insurance companies. '
​

Just skimming through this and read your post regarding JIB.

When I done my 2360 at Cov tech years ago, there was 2 classes running in tandem of around 30 to each Tutor.

There was the JIB apprentices, and us ragamuffins.

And I remember them as they all had matching toolboxes full of tools safety boots etc, and we would all queue up in the corridors, and most of the time they didn't even acknowledge us , as we weren't I guess on recognised apprentice schemes.

Fast forward our exams and about 5 from our class failed and the rest passed , and the JIB 5 passed and the rest failed.

And although I am ashamed a little of it now , I was was very young then and felt extremely smug