Discuss Will an RCD offer any protection in a building with NO earth circuit? in the UK Electrical Forum area at ElectriciansForums.net

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I live in Phnom Penh, Cambodia and people die here regularly by electrocution. There is no earth wiring in the buildings, just live and neutral.

I am a member of an expats forum and the question arises: Will using an RCD device offer any protection at all?
I understand RCD's will go off with any leakage and that may have to include the human being the earth. At the moment my apartment has 8/16/32 amp circuit breakers and nothing else.

I can buy plug-in type RCD units to go between an appliance (like the washing machine) and the wall socket. Will this offer any protection even it is me being the earth! 😱
 
In short, the rcd compares live and neutral currents and trips the power if there is a difference between them
it can’t tell where the current is going other than if what flows out of the live is returning via the N
it will not detect over current.

the problem is, the off button or test button on the rcd will use the earth to create a small imbalance between the L and N to test the internal circuits of the rcd.
if you have nothing connected to the earth terminal then this will not work.
the rcd should still work but you will be unable to test it.
 
In short, the rcd compares live and neutral currents and trips the power if there is a difference between them
it can’t tell where the current is going other than if what flows out of the live is returning via the N
it will not detect over current.

the problem is, the off button or test button on the rcd will use the earth to create a small imbalance between the L and N to test the internal circuits of the rcd.
if you have nothing connected to the earth terminal then this will not work.
the rcd should still work but you will be unable to test it.
Very interesting. I am going to have some sent over form the UK soon so I will get them to test them first then send them.
Thanks for your time.
 
In short, the rcd compares live and neutral currents and trips the power if there is a difference between them
it can’t tell where the current is going other than if what flows out of the live is returning via the N
it will not detect over current.

the problem is, the off button or test button on the rcd will use the earth to create a small imbalance between the L and N to test the internal circuits of the rcd.
if you have nothing connected to the earth terminal then this will not work.
the rcd should still work but you will be unable to test it.
Many RCDs use a small resistor to push a small amount of current between L-N when you press the test button, no earth required to test. To Op, having an earthing system will enable breakers to trip due to short circuits to earth and will protect the building and reduce chances you touch something live like the casing of a toaster. If there is no earth then yes you become the path, but this is no different to many situations where live is directly touched by a person even if they have an earthing system, so yes its much better having RCDS than not . You can get a single up front RCD that goes at the beginning of your system. Make sure the RCD is designed for your countries mains voltage and frequency.
 
Without knowing the details of the supply system we can't say for certain whether an RCD will work or not.

It will depend largely on whether the neutral point at the substation transformer is actually connected to earth or not, if it isn't then the RCD won't work (although you shouldn't be able to get a shock to earth in this situation)
 
Without knowing the details of the supply system we can't say for certain whether an RCD will work or not.

It will depend largely on whether the neutral point at the substation transformer is actually connected to earth or not, if it isn't then the RCD won't work (although you shouldn't be able to get a shock to earth in this situation)
Nice to have you back........
 
What others have mentioned without going into detail is how the system would work with an RCD and faults.
It will depend largely on whether the neutral point at the substation transformer is actually connected to earth or not, if it isn't then the RCD won't work (although you shouldn't be able to get a shock to earth in this situation)
Unless it's a very small system, then I would suggest that the combination of leakage, capacitance, and faults in various parts will mean that it's highly unlikely to behave as a true floating system would be expected to - i.e. even in the absence of faults it would be possible to get a shock.

But back to the OP.
If your appliance develops a l-E fault, then without any earth connection the casing will become live - it will continue to work normally (assuming the fault doesn't itself interfere with operation), but will be dangerous to touch. Clearly some of these appliances will be within touching distance of extraneous earths, such as you'd find with a metal water pipe that's buried in the ground. So if you are leaning on the sink when you touch the (faulty) washing machine then you'll get a shock from the full mains voltage - but it is unlikely that the current will be sufficient to trip any breakers/fuses.

If you have an RCD in the circuit, then the fault in the appliance will still not trip anything - it'll sit there with a live case, and still working. But when you touch it, at the same time you have a conductive path to earth, then the RCD will detect the imbalance (not everything going out the live wire will be coming back on the neutral wire) and trip - hopefully quickly enough to prevent the shock being fatal.

But what if you aren't touching a sink that's earthed via the pipes ? Well then the question is how well earthed are you ? There is always some linkage via capacitance, but if you are in dry shoes & socks, on a dry floor, you might not get a shock - just a bit of a tingle, and not enough current to trip the RCD.
I recall many years ago I worked on a farm (I also knew fairly little about electrics and safety, and had no test equipment) - this was before RCDs were common. We had a free-standing water heater, and started noticing a tingle when we touched it. We were always wearing rubber wellies, so even though we were stood on a wet floor which would provide a fairly decent earth, it did no more than give us a tingle. When I looked, the contacts for the earth pin in the socket (an old 15A round pin one) had been bent - so I squeezed them back together, and when I switched on, one of the elements went with a bang.

So yes, adding one or more RCDs will vastly improve your personal safety.
It could be just one in your supply - but it's generally advised that you split the installation across at least two. Having multiple RCDs, each protecting part of the system, means that there is less leakage current so nuisance trips are less likely - but also means that if one does trip, you still have some circuits working.
At a pinch, using a plug in RCD will give some protection - but only to faults with whatever is plugged into it.

When picking an RCD, be aware that some (notably many of the ones built into RCBOs - that's a combination fo RCD and the overload function of your existing breakers) have a white or cream wire coming out that needs to be earthed. Avoid these, there are plenty of RCDs that don't have this.
Also avoid any time-delayed versions - these won't trip fast enough to stop you getting a fatal shock. They are used (simplification) where it's required to protect part of the wiring system (e.g. a sub main), while still providing discrimination with non-delayed RCDs downstream. Without the delay, a fault on any downstream circuit would trip both the RCD on that circuit and the one further upstream.

For safety, it would be a good idea to add earthing to all circuits - though I realise that's going to be impractical for some (particularly rented places), and an upheaval where it is practical.
But the principle of the majority of electrical system in residential settings (it can be different in a commercial/industrial setting with trained staff monitoring things) is that all exposed conductive parts are earthed - so that if there's a fault, the current that will then flow will blow a fuse or trip a beaker, thus disconnecting the supply.
There is also the idea of double insulated appliances where there is extra insulation so that a fault between the live supply and any exposed metalwork is made very unlikely - but you won't find washing machines built to that standard.

And of course, whatever you or the others on the forums decide to do, you'll need to find out what the local rules/regulations are. For example, in many areas, only licensed electricians are allowed to do any electrical work.
 
So in a curious moment I've just scan read the Cambodian electrical regs (something not actually so unusual for me given my global work scope). An interesting beast - seems to take bits here and there from other nations but doesn't really join the dots very well between them all. The MV transmission system and my interpretation of the LV installation system (230v, 50Hz) is that it's meant to be what we'd know as IT - there is a specific clause that implies everything should be insulated from Ground.

However, in another section which seems to have been lifted from BS7671 of a few years back it talks about making TT/TN systems.

What there IS, though, is this....

Cambodia-RCD's.jpg
 
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Is that on the basis that I will be the earth?

Will an RCD give an early warning that an appliance is already dangerous, i.e. as soon as I plug it in via the RCD it keeps tripping the RCD?
If the appliance is not connected to earth then the RCD will not have any earth leakage current to detect, until your body provides a path when you touch it. So the RCD with no earth won’t trip.
 
If the appliance is not connected to earth then the RCD will not have any earth leakage current to detect, until your body provides a path when you touch it. So the RCD with no earth won’t trip.
This applies in many cases. If the faulty appliance is Class 1 but the earth connection has come adrift, then it may sit there at full mains potential until someone touches it, and the same applies to Class 2 equipment with eternal metal parts, where the double insulation has failed (or nigh impossible to comply with when installing, in the case of many imported light fittings).
If both sides of the supply are truly floating, then a fault of this kind shouldn't be dangerous, but capacitance, leakage and the possibility of an undetected existing fault elsewhere makes this something I wouldn't rely on. It won't matter that a 30mA RCD won't trip, as it will mean that the fault current flowing through your body is less than 30mA, so shouldn't be fatal, (usually).
 
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the problem is, the off button or test button on the rcd will use the earth to create a small imbalance between the L and N to test the internal circuits of the rcd.
if you have nothing connected to the earth terminal then this will not work.
the rcd should still work but you will be unable to test it.
That's not how the test button works on any RCD that I've encountered. The test circuit takes current from the 'in' side of one pole and the 'out' side of the other, so the 30mA that flows when the test button is pressed only flows through the sensing coil on the side where the test current is taken from the 'out' pole.
This arrangement does not rely on any earth connection, allows the RCD test circuit to operate whichever end is used for supply and load, and disconnects the test circuit as soon as the RCD trips, allowing the resistor in the circuit to be rated at much less than the 7W it would otherwise need to be rated at in case someone held the test button in.
 
If the appliance is not connected to earth then the RCD will not have any earth leakage current to detect, until your body provides a path when you touch it. So the RCD with no earth won’t trip.
Welcome to the forum by the way!

Also, a tip for the speed readers - the above comment is one that people need to read carefully in the context of the direct question above it (about whether an RCD provides any early warnings of no earth connection) as opposed to the original question in this post about whether an RCD improves safety if there's no earth connection at all.
 
Also, a tip for the speed readers - the above comment is one that people need to read carefully in the context of the direct question above it (about whether an RCD provides any early warnings of no earth connection) as opposed to the original question in this post about whether an RCD improves safety if there's no earth connection at all.
Agreed! I failed to do the above, which is why my answer to the question has been edited into rambling gibberish.
 
International distribution systens are fascinating, and completely dispel the myth that Brit is best, too. For example I'm currently in Australia, in basically a Brisbane city suburb. Walking down the road and I realised when glancing at the poles that the same pole is carrying both HV and LV - Conventional delta HV on top and then intermittently it drops down via a TX onto the LV lines and appears as 3PN. Earthing (that I've seen, anyway) is TT. A simple idea that must save on costs massively whilst delivering constancy over long distances.
 
The power providers in France leave the earthing arrangements to the home owner so TT systems are the norm, most electricians carry large SDS drills for that purpose.
 
International distribution systens are fascinating, and completely dispel the myth that Brit is best, too. For example I'm currently in Australia, in basically a Brisbane city suburb. Walking down the road and I realised when glancing at the poles that the same pole is carrying both HV and LV - Conventional delta HV on top and then intermittently it drops down via a TX onto the LV lines and appears as 3PN. Earthing (that I've seen, anyway) is TT. A simple idea that must save on costs massively whilst delivering constancy over long distances.
Australia's LV distribution is almost exclusively PME/TNCS, here called MEN (Multiple Earthed Neutral). You'll find very few TT systems here.
 
If the appliance is not connected to earth then the RCD will not have any earth leakage current to detect, until your body provides a path when you touch it. So the RCD with no earth won’t trip.

But isn't there still a leakage / loss of current if the appliance develops a ground fault (i.e. the active/live wire touches the appliance chassis/casing)? Therefore, this will create an imbalance of current between Live and Neutral and therefore the RCD will still trip?
 
But isn't there still a leakage / loss of current if the appliance develops a ground fault (i.e. the active/live wire touches the appliance chassis/casing)? Therefore, this will create an imbalance of current between Live and Neutral and therefore the RCD will still trip?
Only if the unearthed appliance is in contact with the general mass of earth, which is by no means certain, since many appliances sit on rubber or plastic feet.
 
But isn't there still a leakage / loss of current if the appliance develops a ground fault (i.e. the active/live wire touches the appliance chassis/casing)? Therefore, this will create an imbalance of current between Live and Neutral and therefore the RCD will still trip?
Not if it is not connected/isolated from earth. Live will touch the casing, have no where to go and not create an imbalance.
 
Yes, there's a good chance that your body will provide a path to earth and imbalance the currents, with the result that the RCD trips.
This will probably save your life, but it will still hurt.
Can you really say a 'good' chance? If you see post number 9 your body will only provide a pathway to earth if the neutral point of the transformer is earthed. I have absolutely no idea if this would be common practise in the OP's country.

I suppose it couldn't actually do any harm by using a plug in RCD. It would either not work, so you're no worse off, or it would work and probably safe your life. So I guess it's a good idea. However, by using an RCD you may feel a sense of security and take greater risks!
 
Only if the unearthed appliance is in contact with the general mass of earth, which is by no means certain, since many appliances sit on rubber or plastic feet.


Not if it is not connected/isolated from earth. Live will touch the casing, have no where to go and not create an imbalance.

Ok.

But this is what I still don't get (apologies for my ignorance)---> your responses imply that the current is still flowing to Neutral? But how is that possible if the current has left the intended live-neutral loop?

Note: My logic / assumption is that if a Live wire touches a metal chassis, then that means it is no more connected to neutral. And if it’s not connected to neutral, then there’s no way for the current to flow back to neutral (hence my reasoning why the RCD will trip). What am I missing here?
 
Ok.

But this is what I still don't get (apologies for my ignorance)---> your responses imply that the current is still flowing to Neutral? But how is that possible if the current has left the intended live-neutral loop?

Note: My logic / assumption is that if a Live wire touches a metal chassis, then that means it is no more connected to neutral. And if it’s not connected to neutral, then there’s no way for the current to flow back to neutral (hence my reasoning why the RCD will trip). What am I missing here?

If the connection has broken inside the appliance and contacted the chassis instead, then with no neutral return path there will be no current and the appliance will not work. The casing will be live and if someone touching it completes a path to earth/neutral they will get a shock, but the RCD will not automatically trip.

This is one reason why if e.g. a light or heater doesn't start when you plug it in and turn on the power (assuming its own power switch is on) then it should be unplugged before being examined as a broken internal wire may be touching the casing.
 
I entered this thread because video below states that when a Live wire touches a metal frame there will be current leakage causing the RCD to trip. No earthing of the metal frame, no person touching the frame. RCD still trips.

This video seems to contradict the initial responses I received above, which states the RCD will trip when a ground fault happens but only if the metal frame is connected to earth.

Confused as ever....:(

starts at 3:00

 
There is a few ifs and buts here. If the frame is not earthed, say it is floating in the air and completely isolated then there is nowhere for any current to go and as such the RCD shouldn't sense an imbalance.
Another scenario, again the frame is not earthed by way of the electrical system but has a tenuous contact to earth. For instance a washing machine sitting on a damp floor which is likely to allow leakage to flow hence you get an imbalance.
 
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There is a few ifs and buts here. If the frame is not earthed, say it is floating in the air and completely isolated then there is nowhere for any current to go and as such the RCD shouldn't sense an imbalance.

You're pretty adamant there won't be any current leakage as the current travels through the body of the frame....not saying you're wrong, just interesting to hear different viewpoints.

Follow on question ---> so how does the current make its way back to neutral from the frame?
 
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If it has no possible return to earth no current will flow. If I touch a live wire to a metal spoon on a rubber mat there is nowhere for any current to go, this is the same scenario.
 
If it has no possible return to earth no current will flow.

Sorry, I wasn't being clear enough ---> I'm not talking about the current going back to neutral via earth. I'm saying how does the current that is now buzzing around the metal frame/body make its way back to the RCD?......because the point is if we say the metal frame is not earthed AND we say there is no imbalance in current, then that must mean the current is making its way back via the circuit's neutral wire....correct?
 
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You're pretty adamant there won't be any current leakage as the current travels through the body of the frame....not saying you're wrong, just interesting to hear different viewpoints.

Follow on question ---> so how does the current make its way back to neutral from the frame?
As mentioned before, the DNO supply transformer is expected to have a centre point Neutral which is then referenced to Earth at the Substation and in some cases along the route to the home/businesses. Any conducting surface like a toaster casing that has become live, if the toaster is earthed at the home, the current will either flow along the home earth to the DNO earth or Earth Rod and make its was back to the Substation to complete the cct. As this is a long path/highish resistance path it may not trip a breaker or blow a fuse but just sit there. Along comes a human , touches the case and creates a parallel cct through the human body to the floor or if touching an earthed component like a radiator or kitchen tap a highish current will flow through the human. If an RCD was in cct, it would see current down the live and not coming back to the neutral through the RCD as its been diverted through the human to a parallel path back to the substation, hence it can trip if the impedance is low enough.
 
Sorry, I wasn't being clear enough ---> I'm not talking about the current going back to neutral via earth. I'm saying how does the current that is now buzzing around the metal frame/body make its way back to the RCD?......because the point is if we say the metal frame is not earthed AND we say there is no imbalance in current, then that must mean the current is making its way back via the circuit's neutral wire....correct?
Perhaps you're confusing current and voltage. There will be a voltage at the metal frame, but in order for a current to flow anywhere there needs to be a complete circuit, either back through the neutral to the transformer, or back through the general mass of earth to the neutral point of the transformer.
Current does not 'buzz around', it is the flow of electricity in a conductive material. If there is no path for current to flow, there is no current.
 
I'm saying how does the current that is now buzzing around the metal frame/body make its way back to the RCD?
What "current buzzing around the frame" ?
Are you familiar with Kirchoff's 1st (or Current) Law ? Put simply, all the current going into/out of the device (via whatever routes) must sum to zero. If there is no path to ether from the frame (lets say it's sat on a perfectly insulating surface and has no earth connection) then there can be no flow of current between frame and earth. If the live supply wire comes free from it's terminal and touches the frame then two things happen :
1) The supply current will stop. There's no longer a path from live to neutral via the device load, and no path to earth from the frame, therefore when you apply Kirchoff's law, there can be no current in the live. No current in the neutral, no current in the live, therefore no current imbalance and the RCD will not trip.
2) The frame will become live. Simply, there's no a connection from the live supply to the frame, so the frame will be sat there at mains live voltage.
......because the point is if we say the metal frame is not earthed AND we say there is no imbalance in current (meaning the RCD won't trip), then that must mean the current is making its way back via the circuit's neutral wire....correct?
No, as above, there will be no supply current - it has nowhere to go to.
Remember, the supply does not "push current" through the loads, it forces a voltage onto the loads, the current is drawn according to the supply voltage and load characteristics. That's a common misunderstanding - people thing that you cannot use (say) a 2 amp power supply to for a device that only draws (say) 1/2 amp, they believe that somehow the 2A supplyt will force 4 times the current through the device and fry it. Assuming the voltage is the same, the device will simply draw it's normal 1/4A from the supply.

Now, there can be a discussion as to whether a large device sat on an insulating mat really will pass zero current to earth. In practice, the frame, mat, and floor/ground will form a small capacitance which in the presence of an AC voltage will pass a very small current. But for this discussion that current will be small enough to ignore.
 
Hi Westward,

I needed to come back to this post because things are slowly starting to click in my head (thank you to all you have been considerate to educate and reply so far, I really appreciate it).

There is a few its and buts here. If the frame is not earthed, say it is floating in the air and completely isolated then there is nowhere for any current to go and as such the RCD shouldn't sense an imbalance.

Another scenario, again the frame is not earthed by way of the electrical system but has a tenuous contact to earth. For instance a washing machine sitting on a damp floor which is likely to allow leakage to flow hence you get an imbalance.

I now see why you said there's a few IFs and BUTs in that video.

Current Leakage

For example, in the video example already provided (i.e. live wire touching metal frame, no earthing), it states the following (around the 3:00 mark):

'When the current will flow through the RCCB and then through the load, there will be leakage current in the body, but as there is a difference between the phase current and neutral current, the RCCB will trip"

I incorrectly interpreted this to mean there is current being lost by simple virtue of it flowing through a metal frame (yes dumb I know). I now understand that to mean that current is literally 'leaking' to the earth (thanks to your 2nd scenario above).


No Imbalance

I also think I now understand why you've been saying why there's no imbalance, esp. given the reply from @Simon47 below.
If the live supply wire comes free from it's terminal and touches the frame then two things happen :
1) The supply current will stop. There's no longer a path from live to neutral via the device load, and no path to earth from the frame, therefore when you apply Kirchoff's law, there can be no current in the live. No current in the neutral, no current in the live, therefore no current imbalance and the RCD will not trip.


However, this contradicts the video which states that when a Live wire touches a metal frame, the current can still flow back to the RCD, causing it to trip. I get the video is making an example, but is this a plausible real-world scenario?

The scenario would be:
  • Frame is not earthed
  • Live touches metal frame
  • Current flows through metal frame
  • Current flows from metal frame to neutral
  • RCD doesn't trip as there is a complete circuit and no loss of current

Can this situation exist in the real world (@westward10 / @Simon47)?

Cheers


 
If the load is still intact, and there is a L-E (frame) fault, then it helps to separate the current flows which we'll assume for now are independent.
1) The normal load current. For this, the currents in L&N will balance and not trip the RCD.
2) The current due to the fault. This flows from whatever has contacted the frame (we'll assume the L supply) and down to the protective earth connection. The size of this depends on the circuit impedance. If the frame is perfectly isolated from ground, nothing will flow. If it's well connected then a large current will flow and the supply over-current protection (fuse or circuit breaker) will blow/trip. In between these two extremes, some current will flow and if it's large enough then either the RCD or overcurrent protection (or both) will trip.
In a properly wired UK system, any fault current will NOT flow back through the neutral connection - it's expressly forbidden to have the circuit neutral share a connection with the earth connection (at least, once past the supplier's service head and you'll find some threads here and over in the DIY-Not forums about "lost PEN" faults (loss of the protective earth and neutral, PEN, conductor) on the supplier side. Since the earth connection does not go through the imbalance sensing coil of the RCD, any current flowing in the circuit's earth conductor will not balance that in the live conductor and (if large enough) will trip the RCD.

Now, you are not in the UK, and i gather some countries have what we might describe as "interesting" ideas regarding electrical safety. As you have no earth wiring, it sounds like Cambodia is one of them. If exposed conductive parts are "earthed" by connecting them to the supply neutral (which we'll assume is earthed, making it a TN-C system) then things do get more interesting.

If it's as simple as having a 2-pin plug & socket, and the appliance case is connected to neutral, then a L-case (frame) fault will not trip an RCD - there will be a current from L, through the case, and back out of the neutral wire. Since (again, apply Kirchoff's current law) "what goes in must come out", L & N currents will still balance and the RCD will not trip - depending on the nature of the fault, the overcurrent protection may trip, or the case may become live to some extent. Only if someone touches the case while also touching something "earthy" will a current to earth flow - and that should trip the RCD. On that basis, having an RCD will be safer than not having one as long as you don't then lower your guard because you consciously or subconsciously think "it's safe now I've got an RCD".
Possibly the worst case fault in this situation would be a broken neutral somewhere together with another fault. That could make the case of every appliance go live even when they are switched off ! That's the situation I mentioned above about loss of the PEN on the supplier's side - there's scope for the "earth" connection in a property to become live, not normally a problem inside as we have equipotential bonding, but a problem once we export that equipotential zone outside (such as to a metal tap or an EV on charge).


As to whether you can usefully do much about it, that depends on local custom, local regulations, and your personal situation. For example, if you are in a position to create your own earth electrode (a.k.a. earth rod), then you could potentially convert to a TT system in which case you would need RCDs to provide safety, but they would probably protect better than you have now.
Try this page which will probably help, or this page.
 
However, this contradicts the video which states that when a Live wire touches a metal frame, the current can still flow back to the RCD, causing it to trip. I get the video is making an example, but is this a plausible real-world scenario?

The scenario would be:
  • Frame is not earthed
  • Live touches metal frame
  • Current flows through metal frame
  • Current flows from metal frame to neutral
  • RCD doesn't trip as there is a complete circuit and no loss of current

Can this situation exist in the real world (@westward10 / @Simon47)?

Cheers
If frame is not earthed, and live touches metal frame, current will be present on metal frame and RCD will not trip. If Neutral is connected to metal frame, RCD will not trip but this is a short circuit condition and then the breaker will trip.

If neutral has been connected to frame as the device has been in use, and the electrical service to the premises is neutral grounded to earth, and the utility, then the RCD would trip whenever a person came in contact with the frame and earth, creating an alternate return path to neutral at the premises utility and/or system grounds as long as the milli-amp leakage is enough.
 
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If frame is not earthed, and live touches metal frame, current will be present on metal frame and ...
VOLTAGE will be present, current may or may not flow depending on whether a circuit is formed. Let's not keep confusing matters by using wrong terminology. This is wrong (voltage and current are different things), not just a matter of a difference in opinion on terminology (e.g. "plug top" vs. "plug", or "transformer" for what is generally these days a switch mode supply).
 
VOLTAGE will be present, current may or may not flow depending on whether a circuit is formed. Let's not keep confusing matters by using wrong terminology. This is wrong (voltage and current are different things), not just a matter of a difference in opinion on terminology (e.g. "plug top" vs. "plug", or "transformer" for what is generally these days a switch mode supply).
In the scenario I was responding to (see post above mine) poster says live touches frame, frame is not earthed, current flows through neutral. Poster was describing a dead short.
 
In the scenario I was responding to (see post above mine) poster says live touches frame, frame is not earthed, current flows through neutral. Poster was describing a dead short.
A live touching a metal frame that is connected to neutral or earth doesn’t mean it’s going to be a short circuit and cause the ocpd to trip, it’s going to depend on the impedance of the circuit.

It could be for instance that the disconnected neutral side of a lighting circuit contacts the metal frame.
 
A live touching a metal frame that is connected to neutral or earth doesn’t mean it’s going to be a short circuit and cause the ocpd to trip, it’s going to depend on the impedance of the circuit.

It could be for instance that the disconnected neutral side of a lighting circuit contacts the metal frame.

I assumed neutral was solidly connected to metal frame, in this hypothetical example.
 
However, this contradicts the video which states that when a Live wire touches a metal frame, the current can still flow back to the RCD, causing it to trip. I get the video is making an example, but is this a plausible real-world scenario?

The scenario would be:
  • Frame is not earthed
  • Live touches metal frame
  • Current flows through metal frame
  • Current flows from metal frame to neutral
  • RCD doesn't trip as there is a complete circuit and no loss of current

Can this situation exist in the real world (@westward10 / @Simon47)?
OK, "live touches frame" is a fault - it can happen and that's why we design in features to deal with it.

"Current flows from metal frame to neutral" is a different issue.

Here in the UK, that would need a separate fault as the frame(case) would be earthed. So we've be looking at two faults for that to occur - and the device would have stopped working with either one of them. Otherwise it would need a fairly improbably fault - e.g. power cord pulled such that all 3 cores get disconnected, L&N both tough the frame together, but E does not touch the frame.

However, I believe in some countries that's not the case - I suspect your's may be one of them. If you only have 2 wires, then the only way to "earth" the frame will be to use the neutral and rely on neutral being tied to earth "somewhere". So in that situation, yes a current could flow from L to N via the frame - and because that would be balanced it would not trip an RCD.

Such systems are inherently dangerous though. If the neutral connection fails outside of the equipment (and it could be outside of your house), then the frame will be connected to live via the internal load. That means a single (and not uncommon) fault can make the case live - there will be no current as the neutral is broken, so the RCD will not trip. If you touch the case and provide a path to earth then an RCD should trip and protect you - so adding it will provide protection from some faults, but not others.
 
If Neutral is connected to metal frame, RCD will not trip but this is a short circuit condition and then the breaker will trip.
Cool, tx.

A live touching a metal frame that is connected to neutral or earth doesn’t mean it’s going to be a short circuit and cause the ocpd to trip, it’s going to depend on the impedance of the circuit.

It could be for instance that the disconnected neutral side of a lighting circuit contacts the metal frame.
Ok, noted.

I assumed neutral was solidly connected to metal frame, in this hypothetical example.
You assumed right.

If frame is not earthed, and live touches metal frame, current will be present on metal frame and RCD will not trip.

I'm assuming you mean where the metal frame is not connected to Neutral?

If so, I still don't understand why the RCD would not trip.

Here is my logic:
  • Metal frame is not earthed AND frame is not connected to Neutral
  • Appliance is on
  • Live touches metal frame
  • Live-neutral circuit is broken and therefore a complete circuit does not exist
  • Current is unable to make its way back to RCD
  • RCD notices imbalance and trips <------------ is this correct?

GeeGee
 

Reply to Will an RCD offer any protection in a building with NO earth circuit? in the UK Electrical Forum area at ElectriciansForums.net

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