zone question

[simpson93]

may seem like a very stupid question to some but the truth is i dont know, do blanking plates count as acessories and have safe zones in the same way a socket does?

thanks

 

[markythesparky]

They are an accessory. It's the wiring that has safe zones no the accessory.

 

[simpson93]

They are an accessory. It's the wiring that has safe zones no the accessory.

sorry could of worded it alot better, do they provide the same safe zones

 

[Richard Burns]

A blank plate would indicate that there is wiring at that point and therefore the safe zones in relation to that point should be observed.
Whether they are observed is quite another matter!

 

[GLENNSPARK]

new safe zones can be created as well by the presence of accessories...
this would need to be observed on both sides of a partition wall...

 

[markythesparky]

They are an accessory. It's the wiring that has safe zones no the accessory.

sorry could of worded it alot better, do they provide the same safe zones

Not with you. They don't provide safe zones- the wiring to the outlet that has a blank plate should be wired with the safe zones in mind.

 

[Richard Burns]

Not with you. They don't provide safe zones- the wiring to the outlet that has a blank plate should be wired with the safe zones in mind.

Safe zones are defined by the location of accessories (and the walls), horizontally and vertically from an accessory is a safe zone, therefore if there is an accessory (a blank plate) on the wall the H and V from it are safe zones.

 

[markythesparky]

Isn't that what I said?

 

[telectrix]

i think what the OP meant was that if an accessory had been removed and replaced with a blank plate, would that position still count as a reference point for a safe zone.

 

[Richard Burns]

Isn't that what I said?

Errm didn't you say that accessories do not provide safe zones, it is the wiring that has to be in safe zones, or placed with thought regarding safe zones?

 

[GLENNSPARK]

i think what the OP meant was that if an accessory had been removed and replaced with a blank plate, would that position still count as a reference point for a safe zone.

well...you`d think so...i mean what if theres cables still present within the zone of the blanking plate...
its the cables that safe zones apply to...
accessories just demonstrate the presence of cables and provide a reference point for the safe zones (150mm)...

 

[simpson93]

was thinking of if cables had been previosly surfaced mounted and needed chasing in, and no safe zone avalible you could provide one with a blanking plate if needed

 

[telectrix]

i meant horizontally and vertically ( hows that fr spelling after 7 pints) from the blank plate, same as fr a sochit, sockcet, whatever.

 

[markythesparky]

was thinking of if cables had been previosly surfaced mounted and needed chasing in, and no safe zone avalible you could provide one with a blanking plate if needed

Do you mean that you would install a box with a blank plate over it and run the cable through it, in order to chase a cable where you need to.

 

[Richard Burns]

was thinking of if cables had been previosly surfaced mounted and needed chasing in, and no safe zone avalible you could provide one with a blanking plate if needed

Yes I suppose so. So long as there are cables in a flush box visible behind it otherwise someone might think it was just covering a damaged wall and remove it.

 

[simpson93]

Yes I suppose so. So long as there are cables in a flush box visible behind it otherwise someone might think it was just covering a damaged wall and remove it.

exactly what i was thinking,

thanks for the help guys

 

[GLENNSPARK]

i meant horizontally and vertically ( hows that fr spelling after 7 pints) from the blank plate, same as fr a sochit, sockcet, whatever.

hmm...i`ll have 10 pints of grammar please...

 

[telectrix]

scenario being a socket outlet that the client wants moving, say 3 foot horizontally from the existing position. the new socket will define the safe zone that the extended cable runs. however, the existing down drop would no longer be in a safe zone if there was not a blanking plate over the ols position to indicate a safe zone both vertically and horizontally from it.

 

[NickD]

BS7671 definitions, "Accessory - A device, other than current using equipment, associated with such equipment or with the wiring of an installation".

I would say a blanking plate is not associated with current using equipment. (How can it be? It's a blanking plate. It connects to naaaathing.)

Is a blanking plate "associated" with the wiring of an installation? It's not connected to it. You could argue it's a *disassociation* from the wiring system, almost. I guess you're on stronger ground if the M3.5 screws are earthed.

You could see how some unsuspecting homeowner could bang a screw in above it, hit a cable, get a shock and say "But I thought it was OK...look, there's nothing in the sockety thing...".

Just my 2p's worth.

 

[telectrix]

hmmm, an interesting point. the jury's out at the moment, beer glass needs refilling. no doubt some more sober minds will comment, but meanwhile, i'm taking jack daniels to bed, g'night all.

 

[NickD]

BS7671 doesn't define what it means by a "device" by the way.

 

[telectrix]

BS7671 does not define a good wine, but good wines do exist.

 

[NickD]

BS7671 does not define a good wine, but good wines do exist.

Yeah. It just might have clarified matters if it had said what it considered a device, that's all. Dictionaries seem to go for "a thing made or adapted for a particular purpose, especially a piece of mechanical or electronic equipment". I can picture the electrocutee's family's prosecuting counsel pointing his finger at the bit after the comma, and the defence counsel pointing his finger at the bit before.

- - - Updated - - -

'Ere, you said you were going to bed to liquor.

 

[GLENNSPARK]

Yeah. It just might have clarified matters if it had said what it considered a device, that's all. Dictionaries seem to go for "a thing made or adapted for a particular purpose, especially a piece of mechanical or electronic equipment". I can picture the electrocutee's family's prosecuting counsel pointing his finger at the bit after the comma, and the defence counsel pointing his finger at the bit before.

- - - Updated - - -

'Ere, you said you were going to bed to liquor.

or `claretified`....

 

[NickD]

The plot thickens. 522.6.101(v) sets out the rules on zones. Horizontal/vertical zones are defined, quote "Where the cable is connected to a point, accessory or switchgear on any surface of the wall or partition". (Point means termination of fixed wiring for the connection of current using equipment - definitions).

Purely on the words of the Good Book...it has to be connected to the point, accessory or switchgear. A blanking plate is clearly not a point or switchgear. If a blanking plate were to be considered an accessory, then the cable would still have to be connected to it for it to define zones.

You can't connect anything to a blanking plate.

So purely on the horribly pedantic literal wording of BS7671, I therefore contend that a blanking plate does not define zones. I'm not asserting anything about actual practice out there in the real world.

Spot the man who trained to be a lawyer for a while...

 

[NickD]

Spot the man who trained to be a lawyer for a while...

Tangential top tip - on your quotes, put "This document is an invitation to tender, and is not to be taken as an offer to contract or as intent to form legal relations". Any discussion best kept to separate thread I guess.

 

[trev]

Spot the man who trained to be a lawyer for a while...

So you were training to be a lawyer then decided that you'd be better off in this game? Are you mad?.... I've not met many skint lawyers, sparkys on the other hand.....

 

[trev]

Sorry, that should have had on the end of it

 

[NickD]

Market is absolutely flooded with trainee and newly qualified lawyers. You're wasting your time with it unless you can get a training contract (first two years working for a firm as a trainee) and there aren't that many of them. You'd be surprised how many lawyers earn really pants money while working long hours. Those earning big money, at least in the first few years, are probably both working stupid hours (some big law firms have beds so the staff don't have to go home) and doing the kind of law I wouldn't want to do, i.e. making more money for people with too much money already and who will be first up against the wall when the revolution comes. Lots of what I was studying was boring me to tears (Land Law...sheesh) yet the bit I was doing was meant apparently to be the interesting bit. Also I would have missed being hands-on with stuff.

 

[GLENNSPARK]

So you were training to be a lawyer then decided that you'd be better off in this game? Are you mad?.... I've not met many skint lawyers, sparkys on the other hand.....

its the ever revolving wheel now dont you know Trev....
you just jump on something (that sounded like a good title to have)....then when the boredom sets in...you hop off....then its back on quickly on another wedge of the `wheel of life`..someware with a new snazzy title...
like chuffin musical chairs or summat.....

 

[trev]

I did law at A level and was fascinated by it but I completely understand what you said mate and I can get that some of the big firms would be like factories. Maybe you are better off here with honest hard working people

 

[Des 56]

The term safe zone would imply that the cables in that zone are protected from assault,yeah,we are stretching the optimism a little wouldn't you say

How often do you get that blank look when trying to explain what they are to other trades

The greatest success the safe zone assault force had on one of my installs was a 20 x 20 foot bedroom

Young chippy possibly on his first solo venture
There were 4 double sockets,this chippy scored 4 direct hits out of 8 nails and the annoying part was the fixings were helpers only to the no nails he used as the main fix for the skirting board

 

[trev]

Confession time guys, I was fitting some curtain battens for me daughter and drilling away quite happily then I realised oh bugger the cooker switch is right below where I'm drilling! Luckily I missed hehe

 

[guest119]

If it wasnt for venetian blinds it would be curtains for me

 

[trev]

If it wasn't for the England football team most of the houses in sunderland would never have any curtains

 

[GLENNSPARK]

some kitchen fitters (couldn`t be anyone else could it..lol)...some kitchen fitters that stood there watching me make off some cables into the back of a switch....next thing i heard the rotary hammer going and just got there in time to stop him drilling directly underneath this switch to get a fix for his units....i knew a cable came down from this switch....he knew it n all as he had stood there looking at me make it off...
bloody menaces...

 

[Des 56]

Its now time to give these kitchen butchers a break :nopity:

A lot of the fixings for cupboards are now on the edges of the cupboards,now, when its the one in the corner,the butchers knowing nothing about our secret safe zones have a good days target practice

 

[GLENNSPARK]

Its now time to give these kitchen butchers a break :nopity:

A lot of the fixings for cupboards are now on the edges of the cupboards,now, when its the one in the corner,the butchers knowing nothing about our secret safe zones have a good days target practice

like chuff it is....
everywhare they turn up theres bound to be chaos....
on a serious note though....its high time that `safe zones` were taught to all trades....only then will we start to see some improvements..
call it ignorance Des....

 

[NickD]

its the ever revolving wheel now dont you know Trev....
you just jump on something (that sounded like a good title to have)....then when the boredom sets in...you hop off....then its back on quickly on another wedge of the `wheel of life`..someware with a new snazzy title...
like chuffin musical chairs or summat.....

25 years of IEE membership says take it and shove it

And yes that is before they decided to call themselves the IET. Which has made no difference whatsoever. Muppets.