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Discuss 18th Edition - Poll - what are your thoughts? in the Electrical Forum area at ElectrciansForums.co.uk.

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Do you support the proposed changes to BS 7671 for the 18th Edition?

Poll closed Sep 9, 2017.
  1. Yes

    15 vote(s)
    30.6%
  2. Not sure

    10 vote(s)
    20.4%
  3. No

    24 vote(s)
    49.0%
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  1. Murdoch
    Offline

    Murdoch Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Woking
    So we all know the unnamed, faceless bureaucrats are trying to push on us more costs via the 18th Edition so do you support these changes?
     
  2. Murdoch
    Offline

    Murdoch Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Woking
    OK. I've set this to run for 31 days so please show by voting.

    Thanks
     
  3. Pete999
    Offline

    Pete999 Trusted Advisor

    Location:
    Northampton
    I voted yes, because technology is advancing, hence regulating these changes is a must.

    However I strongly object to the, what I consider, are the needless publication of new and expensive documents, why BS7671 is not published in a ring binder method is mind boggling, it would be a simple transition, although it may be an expensive outlay at the first issue, subsequent additions, changes in the regulations and deletions would be a simple thing to do, publish the changes and insert them into your ring binder, simple, inexpensive for the users.

    But of course the IET and the CP Schemes wont get as much revenue this way.

    Then of course you have the ubiquitous courses and exams to bring you up to date, you have to ask yourself why? when all the courses and exams prove is that you can navigate your way through a British Standard, it does not make you a better Electrician, although there are some that believe it does, how anyone can fail this exam is beyond a joke.

    So in short I agree with the changes but NOT the blatant monetary burden placed on hard working Electricians, every time some Mandarin in the IET decides to enforce many unnecessary changes.

    Sorry for the long explanation:rolleyes:
     
    • Agree Agree x 9
    • Like Like x 2
  4. Rpa07
    Offline

    Rpa07 2000 posts - only 46379 behind Telectrix! Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Bristol
    Business Name:
    Ebenezer electrical
    ^^^^^If 'YES' was an acronym!^^^^^
     
  5. Midwest
    Offline

    Midwest Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Oxfordshire
    I voted nyet, but I'm offski soon, well before they come out with the 19th in 2023 :p
     
  6. hightower
    Offline

    hightower Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Durham
    Things change for a reason, and it being 2017 things move fast - hence why the regs are constantly evolving. The thing I disagree with is as others have said, the astronomical costs to have to buy all the published materials again. It's not just the regs, but OSG, then all the Guidance Notes and other documents.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • Like Like x 1
  7. Midwest
    Offline

    Midwest Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Oxfordshire
    You wait till you have to start to whack in earth rods, AFDD, SPD's and all the other abbreviations they've come up with :(
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  8. hightower
    Offline

    hightower Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Durham
    Some of which other countries have been doing for years. We should be leading in terms of electrical technology, not dragging our feet like a two-year-old throwing a tantrum.
     
  9. Midwest
    Offline

    Midwest Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Oxfordshire
    We were leading till we joined the EU, look what happened then.

    [​IMG]
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Funny Funny x 1
    • Winner Winner x 1
  10. Des 56
    Offline

    Des 56 Trusted Advisor

    Location:
    Gliese 581C
    As per Petes post,change may always be necessary,its the system of receiving that change that needs change
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
  11. Murdoch
    Offline

    Murdoch Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Woking
    Not sure you should be allowed to vote as you are retired ...And are unlikely to have all the expense and hassle.
     
  12. Pete999
    Offline

    Pete999 Trusted Advisor

    Location:
    Northampton
    You What?
     
  13. Murdoch
    Offline

    Murdoch Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Woking
    Thought you had hung up your tools in favour of becoming a keyboard warrior!
     
    • Funny Funny x 1
  14. Pete999
    Offline

    Pete999 Trusted Advisor

    Location:
    Northampton
    So you're going to but ALL the books are you Murdoch?
     
  15. Strima
    Offline

    Strima Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    St Neots
    Some changes yes, but I don't support some of the other changes.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  16. Midwest
    Offline

    Midwest Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Oxfordshire
    I don't think they, the JPEL/64 have thought some of their proposals, like the earth rod, like the exemption for single domestic installations for not having SPD's. I'm sure it will all come out in the wash, but if we get a Trump/Brexit equivalent, I hanging up me side cutters :)
     
  17. Ian1981
    Offline

    Ian1981 Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    North east
    Im ok for some of the changes but against some such as fitting Earth electrodes.
    The draft gives no data on what size conductor to use and gives no consideration into a value of resistance we should be aiming for with regard to keeping the touch voltages low with regard to open neutral faults and the electrode carrying any load currents.
    I can see it getting ditched for now but will be back in the coming amendments, when more research and data has been carried out.
    Imagine a load of earth electrodes next to each other say in a block of flats , you may end up introducing a fault current into adjacent flats/ dwellings.
    Needs tweaking and some clarity.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  18. westward10
    Offline

    westward10 In echoed steps I walk across an empty dream. Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Northamptonshire
    I don't care I just go with the flow, if you don't like it stop harping on about expense, money making scheme, blah blah and find another job.
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 4
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Dumb Dumb x 1
  19. Devonchris
    Offline

    Devonchris Regular EF Member

    Location:
    Devon
    Business Name:
    O
    It would appear that some of the changes are not just about improvements but to facilitate the move towards electric vehicles for all.

    The following, which is an extract from the full article about requirements for charging vehicles, offers some explanation for a TT system in domestics.

    It is not clear at this stage the
    effect of the Electricity Safety,
    Quality and Continuity Regulations
    on supplies to electric vehicles;
    however, it seems reasonable to
    assume the same requirements
    would apply to a vehicle as a
    caravan. If this was the case one
    option would be to convert the
    PME system to a TT system at
    the charge point for the vehicle.
    Persons involved in this work are
    advised to seek advice from HSE.

    IET Wiring Matters | Spring 10
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
  20. Pete999
    Offline

    Pete999 Trusted Advisor

    Location:
    Northampton
    Sorry Guys it seems I'm not allowed to vote because I'm retired so I'ii withdraw my vote, if I knew how, I'm also being accused of being a keyboard Warrior, aint that right Murdoch?
     
  21. Dave OCD
    Offline

    Dave OCD Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Cornwall
    Business Name:
    Hendry Electrical Services
    Pete , you're a highly respected and well liked bloke on here, I'm certain Murdoch was just having a laugh with you so don't take offence. :)
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
    • Like Like x 1
  22. Rpa07
    Offline

    Rpa07 2000 posts - only 46379 behind Telectrix! Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Bristol
    Business Name:
    Ebenezer electrical
    'Keyboard warrior' sounds Well Cool @Pete999@Pete999 better than a 'mouse minion'!
     
    • Like Like x 1
  23. ChrisElectrical88
    Offline

    ChrisElectrical88 Trusted Advisor

    Location:
    Norwich
    We don't know all the confirmed changes but I think moving forward with safety and possible life saving regulations is a good thing, regards to expense, £150 on books and £250 on a course isn't too bad in my eyes and I'm a cards in spark who will pay for it all.

    If one of the new regulations saves one persons lige... surely it's worth it?
     
    • Like Like x 2
  24. freddo
    Offline

    freddo Regular EF Member

    Location:
    Devon
    Isn't it getting near the point of being out of control though? I mean RCD protection for everything without exception seems a bit much. The only people to really benefit are the manufacturers of circuit protection devices. I hate installing 3ph distribution boards with RCBOs in every single way.

    All these extra safety features are still missing the point that most unsafe electrics are due to shoddy installation or neglecting maintenance, not lack of circuit protection. Properly installed UK wiring is very safe, even without RCDS, AFCIs etc. on every circuit.

    I keep saying this but if people want to use electricity they need to understand that it needs to be treated with respect. The regulations should not be adjusted to allow for careless/stupid people.
     
    • Agree Agree x 6
  25. Pete999
    Offline

    Pete999 Trusted Advisor

    Location:
    Northampton
    Some people think because I'm retired, I shouldn't have an opinion, so I had better keep stumn
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 2
  26. freddo
    Offline

    freddo Regular EF Member

    Location:
    Devon
    Tell us! I want to know!
     
  27. Pete999
    Offline

    Pete999 Trusted Advisor

    Location:
    Northampton
    Stumn, no names no pack drill, more than my life is worth.
     
  28. ChrisElectrical88
    Offline

    ChrisElectrical88 Trusted Advisor

    Location:
    Norwich
    It surely won't be all circuits will need RCD protection.
     
  29. Rpa07
    Offline

    Rpa07 2000 posts - only 46379 behind Telectrix! Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Bristol
    Business Name:
    Ebenezer electrical
    You'll have 'more of an opinion' @Pete999@Pete999 unless you retired just before the 9th came out AND I don't think that is true is it?
    Experience is always valued by all on the forum - don't hang up your tool belt and mouse just yet!
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  30. Pete999
    Offline

    Pete999 Trusted Advisor

    Location:
    Northampton
    Told you I'm not saying, Sorry Chris didn't mean to hijack your post, but it does look that way at the moment, but my thoughts don't matter, apparently.
     
  31. Midwest
    Offline

    Midwest Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Oxfordshire
    All sockets (specific labelled socket & risk assessment will be deleted). All AC final circuits supplying luminaires (domestic), will require additional protection by RCD.

    Doesn't leave a lot else, with the other stipulations we have now.
     
  32. ChrisElectrical88
    Offline

    ChrisElectrical88 Trusted Advisor

    Location:
    Norwich
    Not seen a risk assessed socket yet, seen plenty labelled which I feel works well. Mainly going to effect domestic installers then you would feel.

    Isn't there something about all sockets rated 32A or less requiring RCD protection though as opposed to 20A or less
     
  33. Midwest
    Offline

    Midwest Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Oxfordshire
    All socket outlets not exceeding 32A. Have you not read the draft?
     
  34. Ian1981
    Offline

    Ian1981 Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    North east
    Think the risk assessment for non rcd protected sockets in non domestic installations was being abused so they will ditch it.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  35. ChrisElectrical88
    Offline

    ChrisElectrical88 Trusted Advisor

    Location:
    Norwich
    No, why would I waste my free time reading a draft of regulations which may change?
     
    • Funny Funny x 2
    • Agree Agree x 1
  36. Pete999
    Offline

    Pete999 Trusted Advisor

    Location:
    Northampton
    Funny, But true, why indeed.
     
  37. Midwest
    Offline

    Midwest Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Oxfordshire
    Just expect somebody else to, so you can have your queries answered. Very lazy attitude. Still frees up your time to come on here :)
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Funny Funny x 1
  38. JK-Electrical
    Offline

    JK-Electrical Politically Incorrect Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Glasgow
    Business Name:
    JK Electrical
    I'm with the naysayers.
     
  39. buzzlightyear
    Offline

    buzzlightyear Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    star command
    yeah , and bl**dy wheels fell off.
     
  40. plugsandsparks
    Offline

    plugsandsparks Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Chesterfield
    I worked out that if both my neighbours either side of me charged up their electric vehicles over night along with mine, the supply cable in the road would melt, so i think an earth rod at every house is anticipating the inevitable... lol
     
  41. plugsandsparks
    Offline

    plugsandsparks Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Chesterfield
    I worked out that if both my neighbours either side of me charged up their electric vehicles over night along with mine, the supply cable in the road would melt, so i think an earth rod at every house is anticipating the inevitable... lol
     
  42. telectrix
    Offline

    telectrix Scouser and Proud of It Trusted Advisor

    Top Poster Of Month

    Location:
    cheshire/staffordshire
    Business Name:
    Telectrix
    it's OK. a few more coal fired power stations could be built to cope with the extra demand for ELV charging. this would no only reverse all climate change policies and also revitalise the coal mining industry. everyone's a winner ( except the polar bears ).
     
  43. wirepuller
    Offline

    wirepuller Trusted Advisor

    Location:
    south uk
    I'd introduce a regulation preventing the use of Hager style busbar arrangements. Today I had to dismantle the entire thing just to change two MCB's for RCBO's....and then the inevitable paranoia over whether I've got all the poxy prongs correctly located in the clamps. Resorted to a mirror in the end as usual.
    I'd also have the person who designed said arrangement shot by firing squad.
    That'll teach him.
     
  44. Midwest
    Offline

    Midwest Electrician's Arms

    Location:
    Oxfordshire
    You've got me worried, added two recently with no apparent issues :eek:
     
  45. UNG
    Offline

    UNG Trusted Advisor

    Location:
    Nr Wigan, Lancs
    If the regs need to evolve with changing technology and the powers that be feel that they need to be changed and revised every 5 minutes why has training not followed the same route
    In the 36 years since the introduction of the 15th edition the training has gone from 5 years to 5 weeks and this seems to be constantly reflected in the evolution of the regs. How can this be right in an evolving industry that needs to change it's regulations with increasing regularity to keep up with technology or is it technology we are trying to keep up with when you take into account the amendment 3 changes with metal consumer units for everything
    It is difficult to quantify what effect Part P has had since it's introduction as the changes introduced in the 17th edition a couple of years later only confuse any analysis of whether safety has improved or not
    The regs now seem to have a set timetable for change which is quite obviously based around revenue streams and not technology change selling a new set of books every few years and a course and exam every 10 years seems to be how we are being conditioned, any cheaper options such as loose leaf regs and guidance notes will probably not be considered as it will reduce the revenue streams needed to fund the IET juggernaut
    My 14th edition regs back in 1976 and didn't change for 5 years they cost me £35 the latest set of regs, guidance notes, on site guide etc has changed 3 times since it's introduction and has probably cost at least 25 times that
     
  46. Pete999
    Offline

    Pete999 Trusted Advisor

    Location:
    Northampton
    Good post Mate, think the crux of the changes is a monetary one More changes=more Money=more training=more money again= more short course Electricians, sorry Domestic Installers being churned out.
     
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