7kw electric shower - 4mm2 too risky?

[marconi]

I have had a look at SONOFF products and thought about a scheme which senses the current drawn by the shower to turn off the ground floor UFH via the home automation network. I do not like it because it relies on wifi connectivity and a fast response by the hat network and logic. I envisage a short period because of data transmission delays when both the shower and the ground floor ufh could/would be on and exceeding the capacity of your circuit breakers and cabling albeit only briefly perhaps but I think maybe long enough for breakers to trip. And forgive me for saying this but we ie you would have to build it which I am not easy with. It is not tried and tested.

The tried and tested way is a shower priority unit made by a reputable company like GARO for many years and giving reliable safe service in the UK and I assume elsewhere too. The device would switch between the shower and the UFH on the same floor as the shower via the C40. Thus it would be easy to install because all the connections are at the upper board's location.

Could you take a look at this example and if you read to the end you will see that one version of the priority board has a timer function which may be useful to you to stop overly long showers.

https://www.garo.co.uk/docs/2020/info/shower boards info sheet.pdf

 

[Yonny24]

I have had a look at SONOFF products and thought about a scheme which senses the current drawn by the shower to turn off the ground floor UFH via the home automation network. I do not like it because it relies on wifi connectivity and a fast response by the hat network and logic. I envisage a short period because of data transmission delays when both the shower and the ground floor ufh could/would be on and exceeding the capacity of your circuit breakers and cabling albeit only briefly perhaps but I think maybe long enough for breakers to trip. And forgive me for saying this but we ie you would have to build it which I am not easy with. It is not tried and tested.

The tried and tested way is a shower priority unit made by a reputable company like GARO for many years and giving reliable safe service in the UK and I assume elsewhere too. The device would switch between the shower and the UFH on the same floor as the shower via the C40. Thus it would be easy to install because all the connections are at the upper board's location.

Could you take a look at this example and if you read to the end you will see that one version of the priority board has a timer function which may be useful to you to stop overly long showers.

https://www.garo.co.uk/docs/2020/info/shower boards info sheet.pdf

Hi Marconi,

I have all of my sonoff devices on lan mode also using a customized integration - GitHub - AlexxIT/SonoffLAN: Control Sonoff Devices with eWeLink (original) firmware over LAN and/or Cloud from Home Assistant - https://github.com/AlexxIT/SonoffLAN, also some flashed with tasmota using mqtt messaging protocol which is highly reliable and almost instant - far better than wifi and the stock firmware by sonoff.
Many of my automations are also done with node-red.
Mqtt messaging between the devices would not be an issue or even the sonofflan imo.

Relying on the sonoff/ewelink cloud would obviously not be a good idea - I have nearly all of my devices controlled locally.

Thanks

 

[marconi]

Most if not all of what you have written is not at all familiar to me. If we were dealing with low wattage stuff I would not be cautious. It is because we are dealing with several kW/ tens of Amps that I am acting trepidatiously. Perhaps you could give me your critique on the priority shower unit?

By nature I like simplicity albeit my earlier working life was spent working with highly complex equipment which was necessarily so to do what what it did!

 

[Yonny24]

Most if not all of what you have written is not at all familiar to me. If we were dealing with low wattage stuff I would not be cautious. It is because we are dealing with several kW/ tens of Amps that I am acting trepidatiously. Perhaps you could give me your critique on the priority shower unit?

By nature I like simplicity albeit my earlier working life was spent working with highly complex equipment which was necessarily so to do what what it did!

The model

GM6-PS​

certainly sounds like the ideal solution but unfortunately, these are not available here and haven't located any in USA.

I work in IT and am confident a failsafe automation can be implemented here to switch off the UFH if the shower contactor is to be switched on. Probably in nodered - it will check if the UFH is off and will never allow the shower to be turned on if the UFH is not off.

Thanks

 

[marconi]

Yes, we would need a tellback that the ufh is off before allowing the shower power. I will send you the idea with some sonoff components and a couple of current sensors for us to discuss further. If you bought the components we could trial it before installing the shower to make sure it works and safely.

 

[marconi]

Before venturing into designs sensing current may I ask what you think about these two schemes?

1. Shower time slots. You could fit a smart wifi thermostat and use your hat to switch off the ufh fed by the same supply as the shower during preset shower times eg: for an hour after wakeup and say two one hour slots in the evening the first early for children and the second later for parents? You could also arrange functionality to 'demand' a shower time slot at any time via the hat shower control panel.

2. Shower demand button located near shower. I have found some wifi connected door bell pushes. These could be used to signal hat to turn off the ufh (controlled by a smart thermostat) fed by the same supply as the shower. There could be a number of ways the button could be used. For example 'toggle' - power up shower/power down shower by pressing the button before and after the shower. Or 'timed' - upon pressing the button the showers is provided power for a time period and then automatically powers down. The button is safe to touch because it is battery operated and wireless. I suppose you could even create a shower button on a mobile phone connected to the hat. You could even have time periods when showers are prohibited because you want to the ufh to be given priority.

Do these ideas have potential?

 

[Yonny24]

Before venturing into designs sensing current may I ask what you think about these two schemes?

1. Shower time slots. You could fit a smart wifi thermostat and use your hat to switch off the ufh fed by the same supply as the shower during preset shower times eg: for an hour after wakeup and say two one hour slots in the evening the first early for children and the second later for parents? You could also arrange functionality to 'demand' a shower time slot at any time via the hat shower control panel.

2. Shower demand button located near shower. I have found some wifi connected door bell pushes. These could be used to signal hat to turn off the ufh (controlled by a smart thermostat) fed by the same supply as the shower. There could be a number of ways the button could be used. For example 'toggle' - power up shower/power down shower by pressing the button before and after the shower. Or 'timed' - upon pressing the button the showers is provided power for a time period and then automatically powers down. The button is safe to touch because it is battery operated and wireless. I suppose you could even create a shower button on a mobile phone connected to the hat. You could even have time periods when showers are prohibited because you want to the ufh to be given priority.

Do these ideas have potential?

Thanks Marconi for the suggestions. Yes the options are endless here.
I sometimes use these little keyfobs that send an RF code to my mqtt hub which then triggers anything I can program.

I use my phone also for various operations - my homeassistant server has android widgets available to add buttons on my phone also - I use them for cameras, irrigations, lights etc. possibilities are endless.

I'll think about it further over the next few days and get back to you


I also need to get down to the local hardware store to see if they have the correct water pressure fittings for the inlet - 15mm compression fittings and figure out how it will be fed. I've only seen 20mm online so need to go in person to see if they have UK sizes

 

[marconi]

wifi push button:
Doorbell button - https://sonoff.ie/accessories/128-doorbell-button.html

Wi-Fi relay:
SONOFF BASICR2-WiFi DIY Wireless Smart Switch | SONOFF Official - https://sonoff.tech/product/diy-smart-switch/basicr2/

wifi smart thermostat and heating controller:
SONOFF TH10/TH16-Smart WIFI Switch Monitoring Temperature Humidity - https://sonoff.tech/product/diy-smart-switch/th10-th16/

 

[Yonny24]

Doorbell button - https://sonoff.ie/accessories/128-doorbell-button.html

SONOFF BASICR2-WiFi DIY Wireless Smart Switch | SONOFF Official - https://sonoff.tech/product/diy-smart-switch/basicr2/

ah yes my wife wanted a couple of those buttons around the house for a panic alarm system in case of armed intruders. Can be used for anything really. These can be picked up cheaply here and installed in the bathroom or just outside.

Thanks

 

[marconi]

Electricity - https://www.italymagazine.com/post/electricity

For interest this is how the Italians manage their electricity demand to suit the capacity of the supply to their home. The UK is heading this way methinks.

 

[Yonny24]

Something else has come to my attention - can an electric shower be fed from a large storage tank on the roof? The tank is fed by the mains and has a booster pump underneath it which triggers whenever a tap is turned on.

Similar scenario to this

How to convert current mixer valve tap to a cold water supply inlet.

Any plumbers can advise the best way to convert the current mixer valve tap to cold water supply inlet for electric shower. I have mixer valve tap , I would need to install a new electric shower on shower area wall .Currently is the mixer valve tap. I want to know how to do before I ask the...

www.plumbersforums.net

Been thinking of getting rid of the tank sometimes and relying on the mains only (seems to have a good pressure as the front garden tap is fed directly).

The tank was originally installed to provide a supply to a solar collector and tank next to it - we are in the process of removing this as the structure has corroded and is in bad shape.

It's a semi-detached house and the neighbour just has the entire house supplied by mains with no tanks on the roof.

This is the solar tank/panel which is now half dismantled. Not in view is a massive plastic tank that the mains fills up next to it. (solar tank being dismantled as the concrete bases have penetrated the roof membrane and the inner hot storage tank has started leaking.

 

[marconi]

I will discuss with my brother-in-law and his friend tomorrow at breakfast. They are/were both plumbers. What floor will shower be on or how many metres above the outside pavement?

 

[Yonny24]

I will discuss with my brother-in-law and his friend tomorrow at breakfast. They are/were both plumbers. What floor will shower be on or how many metres above the outside pavement?

upper floor (2 storey house) - probably about 3-3.5 metres at a guess
The booster pump gives a decent pressure.
Pump specs: Hiser HS-120
Datos Técnicos:
-Potencia: 275w
-Caudal: 3.2 m3/h
-Altura: 12m
-Diametro 3/4

I could perform a rudimentary test with a pipe from the front garden tap up to the balcony.
Can ask the neighbour also what her pressure is like from the shower she has that is fed by the mains via a hot water immersion style tank as shown below (these are located at the same height of the upper floor shower/bathroom taps.



Storage tank with pump underneath:



We have talked about removing this tank anyway - issues with penetrating the membrane underneath - plus needs cleaning periodically. And the pipes across the roof are really deteriorating in the hot sun.
Can always use the booster pump on the lower floor if we switch to mains.

 

[marconi]

No test yet but to ask your neighbour about her shower spray pressure and flow rate would be useful. Also ask about the diameter of the shower head and hole sizes and number of them - in broad terms. A question for you is what kind of shower experience do you and your family want - personally I do not like being jet washed! My wife and I are content with the rainfall experience. You get the gist. Remember the shower has a 7kW element so flow rate and temperature rise are trade-offs.

 

[Yonny24]

No test yet but to ask your neighbour about her shower spray pressure and flow rate would be useful. Also ask about the diameter of the shower head and hole sizes and number of them - in broad terms. A question for you is what kind of shower experience do you and your family want - personally I do not like being jet washed! My wife and I are content with the rainfall experience. You get the gist. Remember the shower has a 7kW element so flow rate and temperature rise are trade-offs.

My neighbour would have no clue whatsoever about flow rate etc. No man in her house either. She's pretty useless with any aspects of house maint/details.
Our standard shower heads and flex houses are these normally fed by 1/2" thermofusion piping. mains coming in I think is 3/4" then reduces to 1/2 through the house.
My wife loves a jet wash experience!! Just replaced her shower head last week with a larger one! The cold water from the upstairs taps has a good pressure, fortunately.
Hot water is much less which I think is due to that spanish style water tank shown previously limiting the rate.
I think with the cold water entering the shower directly may be better.

 

[Yonny24]

The heater immersion style tank upstairs have these one way valves which have such a small diameter, which does not help the hot water flow.
Cold water flow upstairs and hot water one way valves on tank

I'll post a vid of the mains pressure from the front garden later



View attachment video_2022-07-15_12-09-04.mp4

 

[Yonny24]

Front garden tap - direct from our mains!! Pressure washer!! This can easily be reverted to feed the house instead of the old tank on the roof. I also remember when I had to adjust the stop valve in the tank on the roof - very good pressure even up 8/9 meteres there from the mains.
View attachment frontmains.mp4


This is where they made the modification for the mains to go up to the roof. These are 3/4" for sure. mains up and other down into the house

 

[Yonny24]

Would be a good time also to do some major work on the roof as we've had a leak through the flat roof asphalt membrane sheeting we haven't been able to pinpoint yet. Quite a high chance it's under this massive tank where they just built the bricks on top of the membrane many years ago (previous owner), probably over time penetrated it, and it's seeping under there where the blue highlight is!!! Cowboy job done for sure. Membranes need replacing every 10-15 yrs so they had not planned for this at all.
So only solution is to remove the whole lot



Couple of downsides of not having the storage tank though - when the mains water is cut off it gives us a couple of days reserve, and when supply is high from the street we will lose pressure (this is where adding the booster pump may come in useful)


This weekend if I get time I might try and install the bypass between the 2 pipes - from mains and house inlet, bypassing the pipe to the tank.
This way I can test the pressure and also start repairs on the roof membrane by emptying the tank etc.

Need to buy one of the thermofusion pipe heaters to bond the unions together.

Another observation is that the pipe diameter outlet from the tank is 1/2" after the 3/4" booster pump but then feeds a 3/4" pipe into the house at ground level so they've added an unnecessary restriction! that is about 15 metres long.

 

[Yonny24]

This is a simple diagram of the piping to the roof and tank.
The idea is the make a simple connection/bypass at the ground level where the 3/4 meets the 3/4 inch from the mains.

 

[marconi]

My family plumbers recommend you stick with a roof tank and water pump. I have checked what flows and pressures your shower requires and these are easily met by the tank and pump and in range for minimum and maximum pressure and flow rate. If you dispense with the pump then you risk changes in pressure and flow rate when other taps and water using appliances are drawing water which the shower's stabiliser may not be able to compensate for. If you do without the tank and the pump then with regards to pressure and flow rate you are at the mercy of the local water company and its distribution network plus the consequences of neighbours drawing water at the same time causing lower pressure and thus lower flow rate. The tank and its pump provides you with an accumulator (reservoir) to ride through these variations in street water pressure.

Your pump can provide a flow of 3.2m3 an hour or 50L/min. The shower requires 8L/min or more.

The minimum pressure for the shower is 100kPa. The pump provides 12m head of water pressure which is about 115kPa and this is less than the maximum allowable shower inlet pressure of 1000kPa.

What they did suggest is that you fit a second pump in parallel with the current one but isolated at inlet and outlet using valves. Then if the main pump fails you can quickly bring into service the standby pump. Might be useful since you have a wife and children. You will need isolating valves on the main pump too at inlet and outlet. You get the idea.