Adding sockets to a radial circuit in different directions

[LastManOnline]

No because they would not have the equipment (which would need to be an MFT, not a multimeter) or the ability to do the testing or complete the installation cert. Also a new consumer would need notifying to building control (admittedly a non-electrician can sometimes do this)

Interesting. Yet posts 4,6,12 indicate that anyone can legally carry out the work and certify PROVIDING they are competent to do so.?

 

[pc1966]

Interesting. Yet posts 4,6,12 indicate that anyone can legally carry out the work and certify PROVIDING they are competent to do so.?

That is my understanding of the law, however, for local building control they would normally require membership of a CPS to establish competence, otherwise they would require (and probably arrange at the requester's expense) a 3rd party to certify the work.

But not all LBC are the same and some are OK with electricians who are not in a CPS if experience, qualifications, etc, are good. For example, a few industrial/commercial sparks are not members as they don't feel the fees are justified and they are not a requirement outside of domestic work. Competence is always required! (Plus the usual test equipment, insurance, generation of certificates, etc)

 

[DPG]

Interesting. Yet posts 4,6,12 indicate that anyone can legally carry out the work and certify PROVIDING they are competent to do so.?

Yes, they can. But anyone who is competent enough to test and fill in installation certs is probably an electrician. Or in rare cases a very keen DIYer.

I think that's been made clear.

 

[timhoward]

Interesting. Yet posts 4,6,12 indicate that anyone can legally carry out the work and certify PROVIDING they are competent to do so.?

Yes. If you accept that part of being competent is knowing what equipment is required to obtain and understand the detailed data that the certificate requires and being able to access and use such equipment. Including knowing what test results constitute a safe installation or a dangerous situation.

If you are competent you can do electrical work and issue certificates.
In a parallel universe certain work needs notifying to building control as per earlier posts. If you avoid such work and are competent you can do what you like.

 

[LastManOnline]

No because they would not have the equipment (which would need to be an MFT, not a multimeter)

Apologies for stating "multimeter" instead of MFT. It caused an un-necessary distraction

Also a new consumer would need notifying to building control (admittedly a non-electrician can sometimes do this)

I am trying to get my head around the UK system. When you state "admittedly a non-electrician can do this" I, m left with the impression there are a number of grey areas in the regulation of electrical work in the UK and I, m keen to understand them.

 

[DPG]

Apologies for stating "multimeter" instead of MFT. It caused an un-necessary distraction

I am trying to get my head around the UK system. When you state "admittedly a non-electrician can do this" I, m left with the impression there are a number of grey areas in the regulation of electrical work in the UK and I, m keen to understand them.

Anyone competent can do electrical work. But the work must be tested and then either a minor works or an installation cert should be completed.

Some work (new circuits, consumer unit swaps, etc) also needs notifying to building control. For this you either need to be in a scheme such as the NIC etc. or pay the council a fee.

 

[LastManOnline]

Anyone competent can do electrical work. But the work must be tested and then either a minor works or an installation cert should be completed.

Some work (new circuits, consumer unit swaps, etc) also needs notifying to building control. For this you either need to be in a scheme such as the NIC etc. or pay the council a fee.

So from the above can I conclude that in principle someone with no formal electrical training and who is not a member of any scheme, but is a capable diyer.. can do the work, certify (having bought an MFT) and pay the council a fee (as he is not joined any scheme) and is done and dusted??

 

[DPG]

So from the above can I conclude that in principle someone with no formal electrical training and who is not a member of any scheme, but is a capable diyer.. can do the work, certify (having bought an MFT) and pay the council a fee (as he is not joined any scheme) and is done and dusted??

Theoretically. But how would someone know how to perform IR, RCD, Zs, PFC tests etc. Let alone have an MFT and know how to use it. And to be competent you would need all this.

 

[timhoward]

So from the above can I conclude that in principle someone with no formal electrical training and who is not a member of any scheme, but is a capable diyer.. can do the work, certify (having bought an MFT) and pay the council a fee (as he is not joined any scheme) and is done and dusted??

It's also worth noting that
1) the council will charge at least a couple of hundred quid for the privilege.
2) some councils don't offer the service at all even though they are supposed to.
I know a very capable DIY'er who attempted to use this service in the Dudley area and got no engagement at all from the council.

From a sparks point of view, as a scheme member it costs me £3.60 to notify the work.
So if you do enough domestic work it pays to be in the scheme as otherwise the high cost has to be passed onto the customer, leading them to someone else's quote so you simply don't get the work.

 

[LastManOnline]

Theoretically.

That was in fact the original question I asked. Appreciate your answer.

But how would someone know how to perform IR, RCD, Zs, PFC tests etc. Let alone have an MFT and know how to use it. And to be competent you would need all this.

Of course that is true. But we all occasionally come across individual's who fall in to the "overconfident and undertrained" department and given an opening are happy to take it. Your system would benefit from losing off that loophole.

 

[brianmoooore]

There's no legal definition of an electrician in the UK.

 

[DPG]

That was in fact the original question I asked. Appreciate your answer.

Of course that is true. But we all occasionally come across individual's who fall in to the "overconfident and undertrained" department and given an opening are happy to take it. Your system would benefit from losing off that loophole.

You'll never stop it. I know a guy who does his own gas work. Illegal, but as you say, over confident DIY will always happen.

 

[timhoward]

Of course that is true. But we all occasionally come across individual's who fall in to the "overconfident and undertrained" department and given an opening are happy to take it. Your system would benefit from losing off that loophole.

I think this is a little academic as such a person wont' be concerned with certificates or notification in the first place. It's very easy to make an electrical job 'work'. That's all the customer will care about.
We described how the system is supposed to work, and all we can do as conscientious sparks is to crack on doing it right. There's rarely any comeback for those that don't do it right unless something terrible happens.

 

[brianmoooore]

It's also not an offence in the UK to do work that is controlled by the building regs., without notifying building control first. The offence occurs if the work undertaken is not done to comply with the regs.

 

[Aaron b]

I would normally strongly agree and think having an ecir done should be held in higher regard. I also appreciate that most problems are caused by amateurs but considering that the board has just been changed it's unlikely to cause an issue adding a couple of sockets. There's a lot of electricians that won't both testing or certifying.

 

[brianmoooore]

You'll never stop it. I know a guy who does his own gas work. Illegal, but as you say, over confident DIY will always happen.

To the best of my knowledge, it's not. Doing someone else's gas work would be.

 

[timhoward]

I would normally strongly agree and think having an ecir done should be held in higher regard. I also appreciate that most problems are caused by amateurs but considering that the board has just been changed it's unlikely to cause an issue adding a couple of sockets. There's a lot of electricians that won't both testing or certifying.

Sure - we rather drifted off from the 2 garage sockets into a more philosophical debate!

 

[DPG]

To the best of my knowledge, it's not. Doing someone else's gas work would be.

Mmm, you might have a point there. My theoretical 'friend' may also do gas work for other people as well though!

 

[LastManOnline]

Sure - we rather drifted off

Drifted.. yes. My fault

from the 2 garage sockets into a more philosophical debate!

Philosophical? Not in my view. Its been established that a competent diyer (or an individual who regards himself as) can in fact wire and certify an installation in the UK. I was, nt aware of that. That is a situation that is, nt possible (practically or theoretically) in the ROI system. That's not a criticism by the way, just a comparison.
I,m keenly interested in the differences in EU countries electrical. systems and appreciate the insight this thread has provided.

 

[timhoward]

@LastManOnline I'm equally interested how it's impossible in the ROI.
If I went over there, and added a socket and did a good job that didn't make it obvious it had been added, how would anyone find out, and what would the consequences be.