Any Non sparks done the 2391 course ??

[72-van]

Hi Spartykus
I thought there might be a few from my background perhaps, IT , that did Pat testing alongside there IT work that might have done this course to further there own knoledge and skills .

Imho theres a HUGE differentiation between those who are 'sparks' and those who have an interest and work in electrics ,perhaps not enough people think my way .

72-van
fife

 

[johnboy6083]

agreed, not everybody takes their trade seriously, and takes pride in their work

 

[Michelle2909]

Thx Vince For all yor help so far ..I doubt if i will be missing days at the college far to interesting stuff.

Thx Electricalserv I have not come accross a di-log machine before but will keep my eyes open for them now

Thx Spartykus I completely agree its a great forum loadsa experts to lend a hand i try in some meagre measure to help out with my it / pat experience

thx everyone who has contributed so far

BUT

surely theres been another non spark thats done this course ?

72 van
fife

Hi Van
Di Log are Unitest Telaris Made by Dilog, on Ebay search all 3 names,they are well made and robust. also you can pick up Robin testers quite cheap on ebay they are very good and easy to use.

 

[ringer]

If you get a second hand tester, make sure it is in calibration for the date of your exam. If it comes without a cert (most testers on ebay have no cert) then you need to get it calibrated. If using your own equipment in the exam you will need to prove it is in calibration, and if you can't (because you left the calibration certificate at home) then you will not be allowed to use the tester, and you will most likely be failed.

 

[72-van]

Cheers Ringer
I generally use the calibartion centre doon at stafford for repairs and calibration or theres a lad in fife who does it as well.The calcentre just done a seaward pat tester for me picked up by courier on wed and deliverd back to me by courier friday ..decent service.

Only problem i need to find a cheapy mft anyone got a spare in fife they could loan me for a few weeks ?

I have ordered from amazon the book that you guys recommended.
17th Edition IEE Wiring Regulations: Inspection, Testing and Certification IEE Wiring Regulations, 17th edition: Amazon.co.uk: Brian Scaddan IEng; MIIE (elec): Books

Should get my nose into this book at the start of the week .

72-van
fife

 

[malcolmsanford]

I have no doubt Van that the theory side of things is quite passable with hard work as it is theory and if I studied hard enough i'm sure I could grasp most theory technical exercises.

The problem will be the practical. It is good advice for you to practice on as many installations as you can. Making sure that you can safely isolate and convey which will your hardest part, competency. The assessor for the centre will know within minutes if your competant, and the reason they do the 3 phase near the end of the testing test is so he can gauge if your just that, and so that your not going to be put into danger. I'm sure you will not have done any 3 phase work let alone testing.

Be assured you will need to convey competency as if you don't he will stop you half way through the testing before you get to the 3 phase section.

 

[Electricalserv]

I have no doubt Van that the theory side of things is quite passable with hard work as it is theory and if I studied hard enough i'm sure I could grasp most theory technical exercises.

The problem will be the practical. It is good advice for you to practice on as many installations as you can. Making sure that you can safely isolate and convey which will your hardest part, competency. The assessor for the centre will know within minutes if your competant, and the reason they do the 3 phase near the end of the testing test is so he can gauge if your just that, and so that your not going to be put into danger. I'm sure you will not have done any 3 phase work let alone testing.

Be assured you will need to convey competency as if you don't he will stop you half way through the testing before you get to the 3 phase section.

Malcom I honestly do not think the practicle is a problem. If he gets an MFT and GN3 and tests, tests and tests at his home, it will all come second nature. IKts getting his head round the theory. You are right though if he gets his head into the books he can do it....

 

[malcolmsanford]

Malcom I honestly do not think the practicle is a problem. If he gets an MFT and GN3 and tests, tests and tests at his home, it will all come second nature. IKts getting his head round the theory. You are right though if he gets his head into the books he can do it....

Well I hope so mate, but I've seen many a white face when i 3 phase board is open, even if there is only a couple of circuits in it.

He will need to do IR on 3 phases by linking out the phases, something many a sparks I know have left links on after doing it. he will also need to do the PSCC and remember to double the results, also if I remember rightly the Ze is done at the 3 phase board.

All this knowing that there is 400 volts there. Then finally the 3 phase motor test via the socket, it is a bit of a step up to these tests after single phase, espicially for someone that as not done any testing.

 

[72-van]

Thanks Malcomssanford
I will pay especial attention to the aspects you are talking about,not that i will be paying any less attention to the rest of the course.

I really could do with someone doing this type of work to give me some on the job first hand seeing what its about ..any sparks in Fife want a t-walla, sweeper up ,extra pair of grateful hands??

72-van
fife

 

[Electricalserv]

Well I hope so mate, but I've seen many a white face when i 3 phase board is open, even if there is only a couple of circuits in it.

He will need to do IR on 3 phases by linking out the phases, something many a sparks I know have left links on after doing it. he will also need to do the PSCC and remember to double the results, also if I remember rightly the Ze is done at the 3 phase board.

All this knowing that there is 400 volts there. Then finally the 3 phase motor test via the socket, it is a bit of a step up to these tests after single phase, espicially for someone that as not done any testing.

Fair point Malcolm, it was 3 phase when I done it aswell. Hard to prepare for that

 

[SPARTYKUS]

72-van

If u can find someone to work with it will be like gold to you. Good luck!

 

[72-van]

Hi Spartykus I fully understand that but surely the T/s Spark would get some decent benefits in return i do have a decent skill set in IT and perhaps he has a wee office he needs pat testing that i could do as a favour for him .
I do make a lovely cup of Coffee and have a clean drivers licence and when told to tidy up dont bitch n moan like the average bairn would.
I respect my elders n betters and scrub up tidy for clean jobs

72-van

come on fife sparls where r u ?

 

[sparkiegaz]

i give up....

 

[72-van]

Sorry sparkiegaz if i have offended you !

72-van
fife

 

[brucelee]

Hi mate its possible to do if you put the effort in it isnt easy but possible as i had no experience of three phase inspection and testing before hand but i studied every day for 4 month its no walk in the park you have been given some good advice on revision
the books that have been suggested will help a lot focus mainly on the
GN3 as about 80% of exam based on this
then
Electricity at work regs 1989
GS38
another good book is Cristopher kitchers guide to inspection and testing its only about £11 and worth every penny explains it in a easier manner than the other books i have read
this the link to the book on amazon
Practical Guide to Inspection, Testing and Certification of Electrical Installations: Conforms to 17th Edition IEE Wiring Regulations BS 7671:2008 and Part P of Building Regulations: Amazon.co.uk: Christopher Kitcher: Books
practice loads of past papers as some of the questions crop up again and again plus it will give you a feel of how the C&G want it answered

they especially dont like incorrect terminology
learn all about the different test procedures and how to explain in bullet points
can be done with drawings as shown in gn3 or without also sometimes your asked for calculations as part of the answer
practice calculations for resistance and volt drop
the exam success is a good help keep practising with it until you can get a higher mark as possible without looking at the answers it will also give you a feel of the time taken for each question
Earth fault loop diagrams for all systems , TT, TN-C-S, TN-S, IT fully labelled with correct terminology
your course will show you a lot of this so practice in between the weekly lessons so its second nature
practice inspecting and testing as you have been advised on your system using safe isolation
there are loads of threads on the forum covering the 2391
a good one is the section 301 thread which is a sticky in the general section by Amberleaf his time and effort in posting this info i found a great help as there are sample questions etc in there
dont be afraid of asking mate thats what the forum is for
Good luck to you

 

[72-van]

Thank you Brucelee
I will order the book you suggest and get my nose into that one as well perhaps i am forunate that i dont know the incorrect termonologies that you mention and only those given to me in the 17th ed.
Also as you suggest i will have a good read of the forums postings on 2391 maybe best done after i read through the basics though

72-van
fife

 

[72-van]

Hi All Eventually got a tester on ebay today A metrel 61557 out of calibration so it will need sent off that .Hopefully here before the course starts next week so that i can have a read of the books you guys have recommended and a 'play' with the meter.

Next question am i right in thinking that i need a proving unit and a padlock type device for the practical course work ?

thx 72-van

 

[ringer]

Proving unit is not strictly necessary - on a job you can usually use live tails before the main switch for proving at a CU, but don't necessarily rely on this for assessment at college - they like it to be by the book. Proving units can be very expensive for what they are- if you were baulking at buying some of the books recommended to you, you will definitely find it hard to stump up for a proving unit. But then the college should have them available for use. And lock-off kits, unless you get a truly universal one, do not fit on all types of switches/breakers. So be aware of this when buying your lock-off kit. May be worth getting one just to suit your own equipment at home for practice until you can see what will be needed at college, though the college should be able to provide you with a lock-off kit suitable for their equipment.

 

[72-van]

Thanks Ringer
I've had a bid on a couple of proving units on the bay they seem to hold there money well .The c unit i have at home is quite old with re-wireable fuses so no use for any of the test rigs i had a look at the college as far as the lock mechs go.
Any brand of these universal lock kits in particular i should look at?
When i did the 17th they said they failed a guy on the 2391 for not locking the wotsit and keeping the key with him.

cheers 72-van

 

[SPARTYKUS]

Thanks Ringer
I've had a bid on a couple of proving units on the bay they seem to hold there money well .The c unit i have at home is quite old with re-wireable fuses so no use for any of the test rigs i had a look at the college as far as the lock mechs go.
Any brand of these universal lock kits in particular i should look at?
When i did the 17th they said they failed a guy on the 2391 for not locking the wotsit and keeping the key with him.

cheers 72-van

Hi 72-van

it's got some credance still the 2391-10 because it's hard. So when you've got it it counts for something.

It heartens me when I hear that they're still failing people and acting all uptight about using the right phrases. Good!

 

[pushrod]

Hi All Eventually got a tester on ebay today A metrel 61557 out of calibration so it will need sent off that .Hopefully here before the course starts next week so that i can have a read of the books you guys have recommended and a 'play' with the meter.

Next question am i right in thinking that i need a proving unit and a padlock type device for the practical course work ?

thx 72-van

college i did it at provided any testing kit needed. I used my own though -bit more reassuring to use something you are familiar with. Start using that tester on your own house and get the book that brucelee mentioned by kitcher. A real big help with the photos that it has.

You do need to get a look at a 3 phase board before the exam practical - it's not difficult once someone has explained it, just a bit different.
With determination you can do it.

 

[72-van]

Thanks Pushrod The three phase board has been mentioned to me a couple of times now and i will make 100% sure that i get the differences twixt this and a single phase board well in my head quite often on the 17th ed course one of the t/s sparks would explain something to me during a break which i didnt quite catch as indeed i was able to do for others when i did the 2377 course as i had years of practical exp of pat on it equipment.
I am confident that the guys on the course will be a little sympathetic to someone wanting to learn as the guys on this forum have been

its a great forum isnt it.

cheers 72-van

 

[dcelec]

to go from 2377 to 2391 ,u brave man or just really rich and dont care

 

[72-van]

Rich hell no !!
care def yes ..
And up for a huge challenge

72-van
fife

 

[brucelee]

Hi mate you be ok i did the same i hadnt much experience before with three phase testing
college provides everything
i have multifunction megger 1552

so did the college for assesment 2 and 3 of the practical for the 4th assesment on the three phase and single phase i had to use a fluke 1553 i think it was had no experience with this meter only a quick showing of how it worked of the college tutor the only difference with the fluke is for live tests the fluke you have to use all three leads as the neutral blue lead is used to power the meter so has to be connected to neutral bar of the ccu when doing Ze and PFC (pefc green lead to earth bar blue lead to neutral bar and brown lead to line at incoming supply side of main isolator with all loads removed main switch isolator off and locked off labelled etc key always in pocket
pscc green lead to neutral bar and blue lead to neutral and the brown lead to line highest of the two recorded as pfc)
with the megger only two leads needed

when doing pfc on the three phase which is the origin and the one to be recoreded the highest pfc will between the lines
but as this test is not done so
measure all three lines to neutral seperatley ie
L1 to N = 0.546KA
L2 To N = 0. 560kA
L3 To N = 0.550kA
the highest of these should be multiplied by 2 this figure errs on the side of safety eg allows for not being able to test the L1-L2, L2- L3, L3-L1
the highest pfs will always be between the phases so
whichever of the lines to neutral is the highest eg
abve L2 - N = 0.560kA X 2 = 1.12kA
which is what is recorded on the PIR and the schedule of test results
hope that s a bit more help mate I did a post somewhere with all whats required for the practical somewhere and others have done loads of posts just keep reading everything on here
GN3
Bs7671 especially section 7
memorandum of guidance on elecy at work regs
gs38
all the other books etc been recommended to you
and you should be ok
best one for giving you a feel of exam is exam success
most important one to read GN3
for practical info cristopher kitchers guide to inspection and testing the best
practice
calcs, writing test procedures, efli diagrams all systems with fault path and fully labelled also practice drawing with a fault on the line to neutral as this comes up sometimes instead of efli
good luck matey

 

[72-van]

Hi All Thanks for the advice so far.

An update.

I have now got a meter from ebay a metrel 61557 but it will need a couple of new probes a croc clip and calibrating.
I have one of the books you recommended the scaddan one and have had my nose in that ,having said that most of the info in that book is avail elsewhere but it does give you it all in one handy size book easy to shove in your pocket for those spare 5mins,
The Kitchner book is due today from Amazon,

i have a loan of Gn3.gs38

But probably most significantly...

A chance conversation with a builder/developer pal of mine has lead to an opportunity to labour for a T/S spark on a decent sized job due to start where three sets of wiring will be installed into flats and should provide an excellent opportunity for me to see the initial verification first hand.
The semi retired spark does not have an apprentice/labourer and seems happy to have a hand to assist with the menial work so win win for both of us..

Day one of my course (one day a week for seven weeks) went well but in truth mainly recovered topics we had done during the 17th edition course if in slightly more depth .

thxs again 72-van

 

[Phil]

Hi All Thanks for the advice so far.

An update.

I have now got a meter from ebay a metrel 61557 but it will need a couple of new probes a croc clip and calibrating.


thxs again 72-van

i may have a spare crock clip and maybe a probe in the tool box. i will have a look tomorrow for you. if you send it to metrel they will calibrate it for you. great set of lads in the testing room down there

 

[72-van]

Thanks Phil 7677
I hadnt thought of sending it direct to metrel .Whats the usual cost for these to be calibrated.
It looks like a nice box and from some of the posts on the forum here some of the guys who use them regularly seem to like them.I will say that the manual aint the easiest thing to read.

Its the installtest version and looks like it will do everything i will ever need

cheers 72-van
fife

 

[Phil]

i was talking to the service manager today at metrel. he said the 61557 is a good meter and if you bought it for around 150 off ebay from a guy with a few they are ex british gas meters. metrel charge 60+ vat. if you have an electric ctr near you they will usually send them to metrel direct for you so you should avoid the postage. if you slip a note in they will upgrade the firmware foc at the same time as calibration. if i don`t pm you tomorrow to let you know about the croc send me a pm my memory is not always 100%

 

[Phil]

Hi All Thanks for the advice so far.
I have now got a meter from ebay a metrel 61557 but it will need a couple of new probes a croc clip and calibrating.
thxs again 72-van

I have dug a croc clip and a couple of probes out for you. let me know if you want them

 

[V]

i have found some old pass papers with answers
cant recall what ones i gave you but found some more

 

[72-van]

thanks yo every one who lent a hand

the books you recommended are very good .You cant get enough past papers to try and get a feeling for both the layout and common questions asked in the exam..

I sat the exam tonight and managed to leave an answer for each question however wrong they may be..several of the questions were the ones i feared were a bit tough as they required the knoledge of at work sparks which your ave it guy would struggle with ..

so i have already failed the practical having taken way way to long .

i guess i will have to wait a bit two or three months to see the result of the written exam tonight...

i could really use some on site time....ny one want a free hand ?


once again thanks an good luck to those who sat the exam tonight..
72-van

 

[pushrod]

i guess i will have to wait a bit two or three months to see the result of the written exam tonight...

i could really use some on site time....ny one want a free hand ?


once again thanks an good luck to those who sat the exam tonight..
72-van

Sorry to hear about the practical exam.

Post your location in your profile and someone might PM you.

 

[72-van]

I am up in fife ..Scotland

make excellent coffee

i might try and make my own test rig so that i can go over it time and again to get my super slow time within limits ..

72-van

 

[james.cumming]

Hi
I am in Edinburgh. I can not coach you through the exam but I can help.
www.jcet.co.uk.

 

[72-van]

I would especially welcome any help to get me skilled enough to pass the 2391 exam ..any tips ideas .

i have dropped you a mail mr cumming

72-van

 

[honda127]

yeah id say practical harder than written , your just waiting for examiner to tap you on the back and say,, better luck next time lad

 

[knasher]

72-van,
just to let you know, I am a none spark who passed the 2391, so it is possible but hard work as you know. I did it after doing 2330 level 2 and 3 and 17th ed regs. I did it because of my interest in electrics basically. good luck

 

[72-van]

Excellent well done Knasher ..but with 2330 lvl 2 & 3 and 2391 arent you getting close to being called a spark ?

good that you managed tho

72-van

 

[knasher]

i wish i could call myself a spark but i'm not - not without years of hands on experience

 

[honda127]

forget to put your lock off key in your pocket and your on your way home sharp FAILLLLLLLL

 

[72-van]

I believe that with some coaching i would get my time down to a sensible time within the limits required ....

i had thought on trying to assemble a test rig of my own ...

72-van

 

[brucelee]

yes assemble your own test rig

or use your house to carry out pirs on

how far did you get through before they stopped you
was it on the 4th practical assesment of the 3 phase DB and the single phase ccu which is fed from the 3 phase

 

[72-van]

Unfortunately my house has no rcd\rcbo the consumer unit is aged probably 20-30 yrs old and is in a really ackward position ..

i have been looking on ebay to see if a local cheepo 3ph board comes along.

if i assemble a rig similar to the one they use at the college could i power it up using single ph only ??

72-van

 

[greenspark]

72 Van, is there any way you could get hold of a tester? If so, would you be able to test your home/flat and on a regular basis? I used to be like you with testing but doing it as often as you can will remove a lot of hesitancy and give you confidence which is most of the battle. Those examiners want the right answers delivered with confidence otherwise they might think you guessed it..
Repetitive and correct practice of procedures won't be all that you need, but it helps because it'll free up your thoughts a bit on that orrible test rig. I know this from just having completed my AM2. The worst feeling as you seem to understand is trying to go in there imagining what you have to do and why.

 

[greenspark]

I just finished that speel and my laptop showed the last few posts. Thought that counts anyway.

 

[knasher]

72-van, i've got some useful 2391 literature for you if you leave your e-mail

 

[72-van]

I bought a metrel 61557 from ebay but to be honest i could use some-one to show me how to operate it properly .Its not easy to see which scale you are using etc.
The manual is only any use as a firestarter.

The metrel does work and i think i have figured out which does continiuty and which does resistance .
but its not a tool i think i will be using very often ,i only forsee me using it for fixed appliances Pat testing as per the cop rather than using my pat tester and a break out box or similar.

72-van

 

[fingerbuster]

Hi, the 2391 test rigs - are they all the same/similar? I'm doing my 2391 next month and I'm hoping I can get my hands on one locally to go through the testing procedure In order to learn it by rote.

 

[72-van]

Sorry dont know if the test rigs are all the same however i believe they will all have roughly the same configuration of accessories .I am sure theres a post on here somewhere with a listing .
but roughly from memory
3phase board
sub main single phase consumer unit with rcd main switch
rcd protected ring mains
radial circiut for water heater
lights one way & 2way
motor 3 phase.