Are you sure its 43.3p? DECC say otherwise

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Discuss Are you sure its 43.3p? DECC say otherwise in the Solar PV Forum | Solar Panels Forum area at ElectriciansForums.net

I think it would be very difficult for someone (DECC or otherwise) to stop you selling at 43p, since that *is* the FIT as regards the current statute books, and 4 high court judges have ruled that it cannot be changed retrospectively.

If the supreme court ruled in DECC's favour, under the circumstances, it would be difficult to make a case of miss-selling stick to anyone selling at 43p, particularly if you make the customer aware of the ongoing court case and its ramifications.

However, more important than legal considerations, should be reputation. If you sell at 43p, and DECC wins, you will have a lot of disgruntled customers who will blame you, and that isn't good for sales or referrals. If you sell at 21p then whether DECC wins or loses you will have happy (or even happier) customers who are likely to give referrals for new customers. So which is more valuable - quick sales or long term reputation?
 
Talking to 2 wholesalers this afternoon they are saying they are pretty quiet, last week's rush resulted in cancellations at the end of the week. We're not any busier than this time last week - is anyone else???
 
That's absolute madness, it takes nearly twice as long to install on slate and the lead and replacement slates can cost £150 without too much trouble. Of course if you're going to drill through and use hanger bolts then it's a piece of cake and no extra costs ;-)
 
she been quoted on a premium product called "click fit" that is more expensive and better than other systems as its not invasive, i tried to educate but as normal i looked like the one talking crap.
 
Yea but as you say you're the one who looks like the dodgy salesperson because you're not telling them what they want to hear. Unless you want to start wearing shiny suits and bryl cream - that's what happens. Just remember the personal recommendations you get because of the quality of work you do.

I'm still on with a quote I started in April last year - 3rd quote so far. They take my work and tout it round the other installers to get a better price. What's worse is I know this customer - I can't believe the cheek. Mind you I can't afford to be too picky at the mo :)
 
Actually I just looked at one of those adds - 12% ROI???? Not sure where that's coming from. No subcontractors - that'll be why they were sub-contracting from this forum last year then .....

Having said that it's a small price to pay to have a decent discussion with forum members and Dan has to make his money somewhere. I reckon customers looking on here for info will be far too switched on to be taken in by these ads anyway.
 
This is a user comment on that BusinessGreen page:
EDF have just told me that pending any further announcement they will be paying 21p for all installations after 12 Dec, pending the Supreme Court decision. If that goes against the government they will backdate payments to the installation date.

Posted by Sue Murray, 31 Jan 2012
Click to expand...
 
The Solar King said:
This may be of interest to you. Good to see there is honesty and integrity in this part of the media. I wonder if the redtops, the Daily Wail and Excess will follow suit?

UK green media agrees blackout on rogue solar PV companies - 31 Jan 2012 - News from BusinessGreen
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Capture.JPG

Isn't it ironic!
 
Ted - when will we know how many installations have gone ahead since the government announcement last week? Or maybe some figures for the weeks in the New Year might be useful????
 
but ... from 12 dec to end of March all should get 43.3. The question is about what happens in April for those installed after 12th Dec. Looks as if EDF intend to hold on to some money definitely owing or ..?
 
I appreciate that this a difficult and uncertain time for all solar PV installers. Nonetheless, it is essential at this time that you only sell solar PV on the basis that, for an installation that takes place between 12 December 2011 and 2 March 2012, a consumer will get 43.3p/kWh for generation that takes place before 31 March 2012 and 21p for generation that takes place thereafter. It might be that a consumer who installs between these dates will end up getting 43.3p/kWh for the whole 25 years but this is far from certain at the moment and this expectation must not be the basis for any sale.

Please be aware that informing consumers they will definitely receive 43.3p for 25 years is mis-selling and it is a breach of the REAL Consumer Code. You must not agree a contract with a consumer on this basis. Please note that it is not acceptable to have a small print notice qualifying a misleading or incorrect claim. Should one of your consumers rely on receiving 43.3p/kWh for 25 years, but in the end does not, your company could end up refunding them the difference.
I have received a number of examples of misleading advertising. The Non-Compliance Panel has asked to receive a report at the end of March of any company putting out misleading advertising or otherwise seeking to exploit this time of uncertainty by pressurising consumers into signing contracts. I am currently compiling this report and will pass it to the Panel with details of the companies concerned.
Click to expand...

an email from REAL. Hopefully some spanked botties coming up.
 
It is about time in all this shambles that REAL started taking some action, it is all well and good sending out an email, that is really going to frighten the life out of a salesman who will do whatever he can to earn his commission.
There are companies out there advertising 43.3p and selling at 43.3p, why don't they do something about it.
Stop them registering systems on the MCS for 1 month would do it, put it in writing to these companies that if they sell and install in that period the customer will be entitled to a full refund and will be allowed to keep the system.
So, in effect they would be on stop.
That would learn them...
 
It's a mess. If it does end up being 21p and people have sold at 43.3p. what do you think will happen?. Nothing that's what. Joe Bloggs will lose out. As well as the reputation of the industry.

Most of these companies will be closing down after the 3rd cause the EPC stuff will frighten them off. Absolute joke.
 
They'll be selling up and moving to their villa to live off the earnings from the free systems they installed but registered in the directors names rather than the companies
 
finchy said:
The way I see it is it's 21p but customers who have installations before 3/3 have a Chance of 43p, that's what I will say but obviously say the contract is 21p, and they should only sign based on the 21p. !
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Snap

Have a few jobs coming in now. Not sure what will happen after there is no chance of getting the 43.3p and its just plain 21p. Time will tell I suppose.
 
So does it still stand that properties will have to be C rated to get the FIT's from April? and if so is their any chance this will change?
 
earyzhe said:
What a Joke! Who's going to risk that!
Click to expand...

Sorry i was joking, don't want to make this situation any more confusing.

My understanding is that the proposal to make EPC is still standing, and i've not heard any update so as it stands yes properties will c-rated or above. I hope someone is appealing against it, and i hope it changes.
 
There's no confirmation about the C rating - it was in the consultation but the government haven't yet published the result of the consultation - that's due before 9th February. There seems to be a view from some people that the government were open to negotiation about the c rating but until they publish we're not going to know.

So the next few days will be spent sweating about what's happening in April. Will it be 21p and a C rating? Will it be 16p and you'll need to make sure the house is well insulated before you install - we'll just have to wait a bit longer.
 
If the C rating proposal gets binned either entirely or in favour of the green deal options, or a watered down version, I'd hope a few who've been laying in to BPVA of late will have cause for a bit of a rethink as this measure has been BPVA's major campaigning focus since the consultation started. Rightly IMO.
 
why would I support an opportunist middle eastern entrepreneur (or any other foreign entrpreneur) who has come over here to make a fast buck and then shoot off back to his dubiously run country?
Appologies if my facts are incorrect on that but thats how I see it.
 
Gavin A said:
If the C rating proposal gets binned either entirely or in favour of the green deal options, or a watered down version, I'd hope a few who've been laying in to BPVA of late will have cause for a bit of a rethink as this measure has been BPVA's major campaigning focus since the consultation started. Rightly IMO.
Click to expand...


BPVA's approach appears to be one of appeasement. I'm definitely not a fan of it.

I still find BPVA's support of DECC confusing at best, even with their statements. They seem to be saying that they don't support the governments illegal action yet they then attempt to intervene on the DECC's behalf in court case dealing with exactly that.

DECC are not our masters. When they misbehave, we should bloody well tell them so.
 
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BiggsSolar said:
I still find BPVA's support of DECC confusing at best, even with their statements. They seem to be saying that they don't support the governments illegal action yet they then attempt to intervene on the DECC's behalf in court case dealing with exactly that.
Click to expand...

If you listen to Greg Barker on Ch4 news (Government will appeal solar bid to save £1.5bn - Channel 4 News - about 2.20), it sounds as if BPVA "supported" DECC over the 21p rate not over the 12/12 reference date. Of course, Barker in his usual way refuses to separate the reduction of the FIT to 21p with the timing of the introduction (the court case is only about the date of introduction - not the actual reduction in the rate - but both Greg and Chris Huhne manage to conflate both issues in their responses).

So, it is quite easy for BPVA to support DECC in the introduction of a FIT of 21p but not support DECC in its plan to introduce it from the 12/12.

I suspect BPVA's real position is not that they "support" the 21p rate but they support that the FIT needs to be reduced, and "accept" 21p as inevitable so they can concentrate on lobbying over the EPC proposed conditions. This does not preclude them from comdeming DECC's actions in trying to introduce the reduction retrospectively.

I also suppect that BPVA's intervention in the court which Barker refers to, was not to "support" DECC over the FIT reduction, but more to indicate that the rate of the FIT is a distraction to the court case which is entirely and solely about the date of introduction - but Barker and Huhne have either deliberately misinterpreted this to be support of their entire actions, or really don't understand that the court case is not about the reduction but the date of introduction.
 
BiggsSolar said:
Then surely their intent to intervene in the court process was utterly unjustified?
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I don't know what BPVA's actual intervention was - I don't trust either Barker or Huhne to report it accurately though. My suspicion is that DECC was wittering on about the 21p rate in court, and BPVA intervened to say that the 21p was irrelevant to the court case and was generally accepted as the FIT rate.
 
I tried to watch Barking on a link that one of you good chaps posted, and I just had to give up and go and tidy my sock draw (well it was a mess).
How can all these people sit there just going round and round in circles? It is just beyond me.
I am now finding the guidance of the powers that be, stating that it is 21p, when, as it stands in law it should be 43.3p.
Now we have to wait for another announcement that is due before the 9th of Feb.
I think I may start a new business selling bottles of water to these committees, just watch, they are always drinking the stuff....
 
I have to say that having read the majority of views on this post, it's good to hear that most people are trying to do the right thing by their customers and not just trying to make a quick buck. Being honest and transparent with customers is IMHO the only way to be, I truly believe that word of mouth is the best advertising.

Reading comments like "couldn't in all conscience sell at 43p even with a disclaimer" and "I'll be honest - I HAVE to work. But I won't sell at 43.3p. It's not my risk to take." really shows that you guys are putting customers first.

I hope their are some future customers on here who won't buy from those mis-selling, high pressure tactic salesman who give the industry a bad reputation similar to double glazing. It's not deserved and I hope some of you get more business from being genuine, professional, transparent and here to stay.

Mini-rant over!

As for the DECC thing, like most said, only need to wait 5 more weeks and the sooner everyone knows for definite the better for suppliers, installers and the industry as a whole.
 
I received this from someone at REAL - makes it quite clear. Says basically 43p tariff until end of March, then it may revert to 21p depending on the outcome at the supreme court.

Installations between 12 Dec & 2 Mar

For an <4kw installation installed and registered between 12 Dec and 2 March the tariff is 43.3p until 31 March. The uncertainty lies in what tariff a consumer would be on from 1 April for the remainder of the 25 years. The Court of Appeal ruling means the 43.3p would remain for 25 years. The uncertainty lies in whether the Government are able to appeal to the Supreme Court. If they are able to appeal, and go on to successfully appeal, the tariff could drop from 1 April to 21p.

Installations from 3 March

Installations from the 3 March will receive 43.3p until 31 March. The tariff will then revert to 21p for 25 years.

 
Boom bust boom bust boom bust. This all goes back to the fact DECC completely messed it up in budget submissions to the Treasury. The 2020 targets are also nonsense as the underachievers in DECC do not understand on-site renewables. The target was probably suggested by one or some of the numerous 'advisers' from the big 6 working there. Unless both are reviewed and changed to realistic levels this idea of automatic cuts based on volume of installs will lead rationing and first come first served. Nightmare.
 
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Chris Huhne news.... Whether he will face charges for allegedly dodging a speeding penalty.
The announcement, following an eight-month police investigation, is due to be made in a televised statement by Director of Public Prosecutions Keir Starmer QC.
Any decision to proceed with the case is expected to spell the end of the Liberal Democrat's Cabinet career.

Here's hoping!
 
Zac Goldsmith for Energy Secretary. We can but wish. If he is prosecuted, which useless Lib-Dem will replace him? The cynic in me says the DPP is going to stand up as an apologist for doing nothing. If it was me or you, would the DPP be doing the same? Lets hope I am wrong.
 
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