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Hello. I am replacing out aged 2.4 kW storage heaters with lot20 compliant new ones. One of the new ones is 3.4kw. Our house has an off peak consumer unit with single 1.5mm cables, protected by 16a mcbs, leading from it to each heater. ie one cable per heater. The cables are routed along joists in an uninsulated ceiling, then down the walls to the respective heaters. I don't know if they are within trunking in the walls but I don't think so.
Obviously it would be better if all these cables were 2.5mm but could I get away with 1.5 on the 3.4kw heater, or is that pushing the limits of the cable too much?
Thank you
 
I’m surprised that the original circuits are in 1.5 to be honest.
Does your new heaters not need a dual supply?
off peak for the heater, and a 24hr supply for any timer controls. ?
 
I’m surprised that the original circuits are in 1.5 to be honest.
Does your new heaters not need a dual supply?
off peak for the heater, and a 24hr supply for any timer controls. ?
Yes. I've got one cable connected to the 24hr supply. I'm pretty sure it's 1.5mm on the off peak system. Certainly doesn't look very substantial.
 
Depends on installation reference method, length of circuit, grouping factor, embedded in insulating material etc.

Just a quick calculation using typical values:

Screenshot_20210601-184539_Electrical Tools and Reference.jpg
 
Depends on installation reference method, length of circuit, grouping factor, embedded in insulating material etc.

Just a quick calculation using typical values:

View attachment 86318
Yes, I used one of those cable size calculators and it seemed to indicate 1.5mm was ok for my purposes (just). I guess I could just turn it on and monitor the small length of exposed cable for heat. Would the 16a mcb blow before the cable burnt out? Presumably that's the idea of them? Seems strange to me as a layman that 16amp mcbs are used on cable that can only carry 14amps if routed in particular ways.
 
It is marginal, OK for lengths to 27m and for installation methods 100, 102, C (from the On-Site Guide Table 7.1(i) page 69). Not listed in the table but also OK is method B (see Table 7.1(ii) on page 74 for current carrying capacities of common PVC cables).

Those are:
  • 100 = in contact with plasterboard ceiling or joists cover by not more than 100mm insulation
  • 102 = in a stud wall with thermal insulation and cable touching the wall
  • C = clipped direct
  • B = in conduit or trunking on a wall
 
It is marginal, OK for lengths to 27m and for installation methods 100, 102, C (from the On-Site Guide Table 7.1(i) page 69). Not listed in the table but also OK is method B (see Table 7.1(ii) on page 74 for current carrying capacities of common PVC cables).

Those are:
  • 100 = in contact with plasterboard ceiling or joists cover by not more than 100mm insulation
  • 102 = in a stud wall with thermal insulation and cable touching the wall
  • C = clipped direct
  • B = in conduit or trunking on a wall
Thanks. That's kind of what I thought. I guess I'll use it for now but look at getting it uprated ASAP. What about my other question re 16amp mcb? Is that likely to blow before the cable melts?!
 
Thanks. That's kind of what I thought. I guess I'll use it for now but look at getting it uprated ASAP. What about my other question re 16amp mcb? Is that likely to blow before the cable melts?!
The purpose of the MCB is to protect the cable.
As long as the installation method and other design parameters allow, then it will do just that.

If however the design parameters do not allow, then the MCB would need to be derated. The next lowest size commonly in use is 10 amps, which is of no use to you in this case.

So you really need to have someone go over the design, as pc1966 said, this is a borderline case.
 
Seems strange to me as a layman that 16amp mcbs are used on cable that can only carry 14amps if routed in particular ways.

As above, this would not be permitted if the load were in excess of 14A. There is a simple principle:
Ib<= In<=Iz,
where Ib is the design load, In is the protective device rating and Iz is the cable rating after all factors have been applied for its particular situation.

In words, the MCB must be sufficiently large to supply the load, and the cable, as installed, must be sufficiently large to carry anything the MCB will let flow through it. The exception is where the MCB is only providing short-circuit protection to a fixed load, in which case the cable must still be sufficiently large for the load but the MCB might be larger than the cable's thermal rating. Note that although it can take 1.45In to actually trip the MCB, i.e. a 16A MCB will carry 23A, this is already taken into account in the cable rating.

When sizing cables near the limit, watch out for grouping where many cables exit the DB, especially on heating loads where many cables might run at full current simultaneously. Two cables grouped together for the first few feet will knock the rating back by 20% (Cg=0.8)

I guess I could just turn it on and monitor the small length of exposed cable for heat

You won't learn much from this unless you have spent a lifetime feeling cables. Yes, it will get warm, but how warm is too warm? And how much warmer is the length that is not exposed where there is less air circulation? Published ratings allow for the cable insulation to last its full design lifespan. A cable that runs hot might have its life curtailed by half, but you still won't know about that for a quarter of a century. OTOH it takes 80A or more to actually destroy 2.5mm² (often rated around 28A in typical installation environments) which would mean a heat dissipation (80/28)² = 8 times what it should be.
 
an all electric council estates near me had all their sockets and heaters wired in 1.5 micc all on 15a fuses
 
I believe MICC has a higher ccc so 1.5 on 15A would be fine
In the 'good old days' it was not uncommon for volt drop not to be checked at the design stage so MICC could well be a size or so below the equivalent plastic/rubber insulated cable and fine for CCC due to its much higher safe operating temperature, but you then had a magnificent MICC installation and the lights would dim when ever some bit of equipment was started!

On the positive side MICC will generally last forever unless seriously damaged!
 
Thank you all for your very helpful and knowledgeable responses. Apologies for my ignorance, but what is MICC and how would I tell if I had MICC? It sounds as though, if I do have MICC then 1.5mm should be OK for the 3.4kw heater. Is that correct?
 
In the 'good old days' it was not uncommon for volt drop not to be checked at the design stage so MICC could well be a size or so below the equivalent plastic/rubber insulated cable and fine for CCC due to its much higher safe operating temperature, but you then had a magnificent MICC installation and the lights would dim when ever some bit of equipment was started!

On the positive side MICC will generally last forever unless seriously damaged!
Apologies for my ignorance but what is MICC? If it is a typ
Thank you all for your very helpful and knowledgeable responses. Apologies for my ignorance, but what is MICC and how would I tell if I had MICC? It sounds as though, if I do have MICC then 1.5mm should be OK for the 3.4kw heater. Is that correct?
I just googled MICC and it doesnt look like my cable which looks like bog std 1.5mm flat twin and earth.
 

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