Campaign for an electrician's licence scheme...Please Read...

[Lec]

Hi Lobsterbob.
Please go to the lec webs site. Follow some of the links which will take you to various sites where licensing schemes are in place and your questions will be answered.
Basically, a licensing scheme would address all of the issues you raised.
As far as cost is concerned. No it should not add cost, it should reduce cost.
You will have to be licensed, but membership of associations etc would be your choice.
The cost of joining would reduce as you won't be paying for the assessment as that would be done as part of the licensing system.

 

[rocker]

Rocker, Your attitude is one of the reasons I got off my --- and started something that CAN make a difference and CAN change the way things are.......
......You may like to know that I already have an MP involved......
...........I'm interested to know why such a scheme would put you on the dole queue? Good electricians, should prosper from it...........

What I was saying is that we SHOULD do something about it - we shoud start taking shoddy work seriously and start reporting it.

If you have an MP involved I'm afraid that makes me even less eager to join up.

It will put people in the dole queue because all us good boys who are registered will have to pay through the nose to be a part of it (on top of what we have to pay now - can you seriously see the government CLOSING DOWN the existing schemes and losing all those votes ahem I mean jobs), but the cowboys and the renegade Polaks who are not and never-will-be registered will still do cheap electrical work and force prices down. I'm sure I don't need to spell it out for you, somethings going to have to give.

- Australia and New Zealand don't have a problem with completely unqualified people coming into the country and disappearing. I would say that is more of a contributing factor to their success than having a little photocard or whatever -

The industry is regulated by several organisations. It has gone from a complete free-for-all to where it is now in a few short years. Rome was not built in a day and all that. The part P schemes probably have quite a long way to go, and that will take some time - they need to get everyone registered and educated first, then maybe they can go after the naughty boys.

I have no quarrel with you, and I'm happy to see you're doing something about what you believe in, however I'm sorry but I don't believe in it. We've had quite enough upheaval over the last few years, let's wait and see it through before starting all over again.

EDIT: It looks like my 'closing down the schemes' thing has already been covered, however I still cannot see the Gov't taking these huge organisations and changing their status from 'compulsory' to 'optional'. I reckon they may have something to say about that, and a few lobbyists in their pockets to say it.

 

[DurhamSparky]

no work on today Will...???
nice long post

 

[rocker]

Yep, laundry day. And I've got all my recycling to sort through, of course!

 

[DurhamSparky]

im doing the sums of my business!!!

since 1st Jan i have managed to spend in total including Capital investments £7,553.75 and i have returned the small sum in the region of £2500


not a bad capital investment for the future EYH!!

 

[rocker]

I'm looking at the same kind of balance, ooh nice. Going to try a few new tricks this afternoon and hopefully get some work on. IT'S OUT THERE WE'VE JUST GOTTA GO AND GET IT!!!

By the way did you ever switch on your meteor electricals?

 

[DurhamSparky]

not yet!! its installed and fixed but until i get the nod from

A) the builder B) the plasterer C) the tiler D) the joiner E) the Building Inspector F) the plumber G) the bloke from next door

i have to wait my turn to get access back in to the property..! dont help that the Incomers from property are right next to front door and me working behind said door means nobody canget in and out with out me scouling at them!

also got 9 downlights and the usual stuff to wire in place also!!

Im going to collect a hire car shortly as Focus is now Illegal and i dont have delivery of Van yet so my afternoon is going to be spent poping leaflets in doors! also going to throw my business card in with some leaflets!

 

[aptsys]

Where in your scheme would this leave DIYers/unlicensed individuals? In Australia and NZ, you need to call in a licensed electrician just to replace a light switch or light fitting, yet you could be a perfectly competant industrial electrician.

The last thing we need is more red tape...

 

[Lec]

As an industrial electrician, you would recieve a license if you wanted one. Yes you would have to apply, but as you say, it would save you employing the services of some one with a license.

 

[Lec]

What I was saying is that we SHOULD do something about it - we shoud start taking shoddy work seriously and start reporting it.

If you have an MP involved I'm afraid that makes me even less eager to join up.
Sorry, but they are our elected representitives and the only people that can help push this through !

It will put people in the dole queue because all us good boys who are registered will have to pay through the nose to be a part of it (on top of what we have to pay now - can you seriously see the government CLOSING DOWN the existing schemes and losing all those votes ahem I mean jobs), but the cowboys and the renegade Polaks who are not and never-will-be registered will still do cheap electrical work and force prices down. I'm sure I don't need to spell it out for you, somethings going to have to give. That's what happens now, a licence would make that illegal. Please read the web site and my previous comments, the scheme would be "not for profit", so you would not pay through the nose. There isn't any jobs at risk, again read my previous posts.

- Australia and New Zealand don't have a problem with completely unqualified people coming into the country and disappearing. I would say that is more of a contributing factor to their success than having a little photocard or whatever - Not sure that's realy true?

The industry is regulated by several organisations. It has gone from a complete free-for-all to where it is now in a few short years. Rome was not built in a day and all that. The part P schemes probably have quite a long way to go, and that will take some time - they need to get everyone registered and educated first, then maybe they can go after the naughty boys. So how does Part P control all commercial, Industrial, etc non domestic works. It does not now and will not in the future. Think wider than Domestic.

I have no quarrel with you, and I'm happy to see you're doing something about what you believe in, however I'm sorry but I don't believe in it. We've had quite enough upheaval over the last few years, let's wait and see it through before starting all over again. We have no quarrel, I'm realy pleased you have posted, the feed back in invaluable and you have the right to your beliefs. Do we wait and accept what they decide to give us, or do we make a stand now and get some thing we want? Perhaps I know to much of what is happening behine closed doors within the various organisations.

EDIT: It looks like my 'closing down the schemes' thing has already been covered, however I still cannot see the Gov't taking these huge organisations and changing their status from 'compulsory' to 'optional'. I reckon they may have something to say about that, and a few lobbyists in their pockets to say it.

Are we not more powerfull in numbers. yes the organisations are rattled already, but why should we be worried, after all it's our industry, they act for us. well they should, they just seem to forget it some times.

 

[rocker]

MPs may be elected representatives and you are absolutely right, nothing would happen without their say-so, but that doesn't stop them being either crooked or obsessed with their various 'departments'. That is why nothing like this will EVER work properly. And we havent even gone into the civil-service side of things.

LEC these people don't care what's legal or not. They are not going to stop acting the way they do because it becomes illegal. Realistically they could be prosecuted now for the terrible works they do, so what's the difference?

You can call it 'not for profit' until the cows come home, but the people who work for it will have to be paid, and the departments will have to be run, and the MPs will have to have their bit, and it will have to be taxed, and so on and so forth. It will end up costing a lot, and as I said before theres no way the current schemes will be dissolved, so it will be on top of what we're paying now.

Australia and NZ do not allow unskilled migrants in to the country. There is not an influx of people coming into the country with either no skills or the limited skills learned according to the low-standards of their respective countries. Sure you have to have a licence which you will get if you're a good and honest spark, but surely that's the case in this country with Part P etc. All the trained competent sparks ARE registered, once again we are coming back to the issue of people working 'under the radar', who couldn't give two hoots if a licence is produced because they aren't regsitered now and they won't be registered in the future. When it comes down to it, most customers will happily turn a blind eye to the licence issue if the price is low.

I'm only talking about domestic, and I was under the impression you were too, as you've said to someone else that they could have a licence if they wanted to for commercial, but wouldn't really need one. I've probably misread there though. I am not an industrial spark, but I'm fairly sure you don't get too many cowboys in that game anyway.

As I've said a few times what you're doing I'm sure is great in your eyes, and the eyes of many others. I just feel that you're labouring under the misaprehension that the world and specifically this country runs according to your ideals - unfortunately it doesnt. With the current 'bureaucracy' government of crooks we have (and may 6th isn't going to change a damn thing, regardless of who gets in) this sort of thing would never work the way you want it to. It will be turned into yet another cash cow, that I can guarantee, and the only benefit will be to the govenment and to those running it.

And, as I've said, 'Part P' is already here, and it hasn't even got started yet. From a domestic point of view at least, it's whole point is to regulate and 'licence' the industry. Your scheme would put billions down the tubes before any results were ever seen.

 

[Deleted member 9648]

Been following this thread with interest being not entirely sure where I stand.....and I have to say I lean towards Rockers view above....the cowboys will find a way round it and the rest of us will pay through the nose for it.

 

[aptsys]

Interestingly, Australia has one of the highest percentages of electrical related injuries in the world.

 

[elektrisien]

I the think' time served' and apprenticeships is something from the previous century. An electrician is first and foremost an electrical engineer. To be an engineer you need to go to college and study science, maths etc. I dont want to be called a Spark. That sound stupid and reminds me of fat block in dirty overalls. It should be professional. It does not take 4 years to learn how to bend conduit. Another thing, installation methods, tegnology etc are changing so quickly that somebody who did an apprenticeship 40years ago, I mean, it means nothing to me. I used to think an electrician is somebody like a tradesman, but they are not, they are much more. Eduacation should be much more important and experience less so. If you completed your studies as a doctor, you are a doctor. You dont have to have 4 years hospital experience and do an apprenticeship. Going to college is hard and diffecult. Not everybody can do it. But times are changing. Quite a few older electricians feel threatened by the new breed of electrician that focus more on academic eduacation rather than practical experience. But the electrical industry is changing, what was good 40 years ago, does not cut it anymore.

 

[elektrisien]

The electrical industry is moving towards full harmonizing with the rest of the EU. Freedom of movement and labour is one of the principles of the EU. If you create such a body as proposed, how will electricians from other EU countries fit into it ? You cannot deny them to work. How will they comply with entry requirements ? Or will this register be for all of Europa ?

 

[Phil]

I have to agree and disagree with the college experience issue.
yes there is a great deal to be learned at college But this does not make up for the day to day experience. I have worked with a vast range of people and all the theory in the world is no good when they get into doing the job hands on. on the same note though an electrician with just experience and no underpinning knowledge leaves a lot to be desired. like i said i have worked with the good and the bad , a little knowledge is dangerous and the real world of lifting boards is just not taught in college. college experience and the nvq is a good mixture.

 

[b4champ]

Hey, could i work on transformers if i go to community college for 1 year to get a certificate. Or do i have to go two years and get a diploma?

 

[rocker]

What, now or on this proposed scheme?

 

[Lec]

The electrical industry is moving towards full harmonizing with the rest of the EU. Freedom of movement and labour is one of the principles of the EU. If you create such a body as proposed, how will electricians from other EU countries fit into it ? You cannot deny them to work. How will they comply with entry requirements ? Or will this register be for all of Europa ?

That's a very good point.
I would possibly envisage a conversion system, so that EU qualifications etc equal a UK licence at which ever level.
Personaly, I am not a EU supporter. Having had experience working and trading across borders.
This is why all of the feed back is so important, it raises issues that will have to be addressed at some stage.

 

[Lec]

I the think' time served' and apprenticeships is something from the previous century. An electrician is first and foremost an electrical engineer. To be an engineer you need to go to college and study science, maths etc. I dont want to be called a Spark. That sound stupid and reminds me of fat block in dirty overalls. It should be professional. It does not take 4 years to learn how to bend conduit. Another thing, installation methods, tegnology etc are changing so quickly that somebody who did an apprenticeship 40years ago, I mean, it means nothing to me. I used to think an electrician is somebody like a tradesman, but they are not, they are much more. Eduacation should be much more important and experience less so. If you completed your studies as a doctor, you are a doctor. You dont have to have 4 years hospital experience and do an apprenticeship. Going to college is hard and diffecult. Not everybody can do it. But times are changing. Quite a few older electricians feel threatened by the new breed of electrician that focus more on academic eduacation rather than practical experience. But the electrical industry is changing, what was good 40 years ago, does not cut it anymore.

I absolutely agree with the majority of what you say, but you disregard the value of experience at your peril. The lack of it may very well kill you or someone else.
Don't dis the older guys, they could save your --- one day! We are all electricans.
Qualifications + Experience = Competent Electrician.
It’s no good knowing the theory if you can not apply it safely.
We cover a very wide range of work, mostly commercial / Industrial, but we still do some Domestic. We also get involved in lots of stuff many people would run from. We embrace new tech and we want to learn. However, day after day after day, we appreciate that without experience you will end up in the brown and smelly.
Don’t get me wrong, we do make mistakes from time to time, but it’s experience that helps us avoid them.
On a daily basis, my guys have to make on the job decisions. The ones with the most experience often make the best decisions and that is often because they are confident in their own abilities.
I appeal to everyone. Do not over estimate your ability, just because you have a certificate. You could make a mistake that could be very costly.
My son is going to Uni this year to become a Architect, knowing it will take up to 7 years to become fully qualified. During the 7 years he will cover theory, but will also need to gain experience. He has already spent 3 years doing A's, and a foundation degree. So in effect it will be 10 years of education and experience, before he calls himself an Architect.