Campaign for an electrician's licence scheme...Please Read...

[elektrisien]

I absolutely agree with the majority of what you say, but you disregard the value of experience at your peril. The lack of it may very well kill you or someone else.
Don't dis the older guys, they could save your --- one day! We are all electricans.
Qualifications + Experience = Competent Electrician.
It’s no good knowing the theory if you can not apply it safely.
We cover a very wide range of work, mostly commercial / Industrial, but we still do some Domestic. We also get involved in lots of stuff many people would run from. We embrace new tech and we want to learn. However, day after day after day, we appreciate that without experience you will end up in the brown and smelly.
Don’t get me wrong, we do make mistakes from time to time, but it’s experience that helps us avoid them.
On a daily basis, my guys have to make on the job decisions. The ones with the most experience often make the best decisions and that is often because they are confident in their own abilities.
I appeal to everyone. Do not over estimate your ability, just because you have a certificate. You could make a mistake that could be very costly.
My son is going to Uni this year to become a Architect, knowing it will take up to 7 years to become fully qualified. During the 7 years he will cover theory, but will also need to gain experience. He has already spent 3 years doing A's, and a foundation degree. So in effect it will be 10 years of education and experience, before he calls himself an Architect.

I agree with you, no job can be done without experience. But it seems some people think that if you did not do an apprenticeship, you will never make it. The hammer on experience like its everything. Just as dangerous as the guy with only a certificate, is the guy with all the experience. I have seen experienced electricians say, lets just use that size cable, its what we always used, without taking other factors into consideration. But like you say, experience gives you confidence, and speed. Maybe I just have a chip on my shoulder about this issue.

 

[elektrisien]

That's a very good point.
I would possibly envisage a conversion system, so that EU qualifications etc equal a UK licence at which ever level.
Personaly, I am not a EU supporter. Having had experience working and trading across borders.
This is why all of the feed back is so important, it raises issues that will have to be addressed at some stage.

What about the guys that did the self study courses ? Wont they be penalised ? I think many electricians did not follow the traditional route via an apprenticeship.

 

[RexT]

Hi all,

It seems that we all suffer from the usual thing in that we are up against people who under cut us and do a poor job or others who operate who operate outside the agreed levels of safety / regulations. I agree that we do need somnething effective but surely isnt it as said that there doesnt seem to be active policing? Schemes are great but how many do you have to be a part of?
We are all trying to make a living and its hard enough at the moment. I would happily support anything that was reasonable and would work.
Interesting posts guys.
Best wishes

Rex

 

[darking]

Hi Lec I quite agree but I have found , when asked about my accreditation by customers, that showing them my JIB card, bearing my picture, NI number and detailing my qualifications has given my customers more confidence than a logo painted on a van. I have heard a lot of "cowboy" stories about NICEIC members.

My card costs me a few pounds every 3 years. What does NICEIC charge for membership, their interpretation of the Regs, site assessments etc? and on the subject of the Mickey Mouse Level 2 domestic installer certificate, NICEIC along with some other accreditation companies actually endorses these plonkers. You only get a gold JIb card with "Accredited Electrician" on it when you provide proof of Training , Experience and Qualifications.

They may not police the industry any more than Corgi does for plumbers but at least they set the standard for competence, Training , Experience and Qualifications.

 

[kung]

The way i see it is the only policing out there is us and that is on our own work no card,cert,qual etc guarantee every install we do is safe and good quality the only thing that changes things is if we can sleep at night knowing the possibility that some poor sod might die or be injured or have their property destroyed etc if our work is crap. The fact that a domestic installer and quallified spark has done what they have to get to that grading gives them less chance of being a dodgy trader from hell ! that said theres good and bad in all ! i have seen some real crap from a domestic installer and some from a fully quallified time served spark as in truth we all have ! having said that ive worked with some very good domestic installers as well as sparks ! consider this possibility alzheimer's ! if your working and get this even in a mild form how will you know ? who will know ? how safe is your work ? how much work will you do that could be unsafe before its found out if at all ? will you be prossicuted in court if its proven you suffer from this even if someone dies ? how many jobs from one assessment do you do till another ? now consider this bipoler ! etc etc only we can tell or can we ? onece you have your quals thats it ! your qualified ! think about all what youve done that youve done thousands of times before year in year out will the phone go later giving you bad news ? or will you fail your next assessment while trying to do a Ze with a coat hanger ? I do support this licence scheme but although it will help will like all the others protect the public from this possibility ? Im now off the mow the carpet and hover the lawn so be on this phone later !

 

[acvc]

1. This License propsal is based on the assumtion that:

"The present system has had quite a few years and is showing its utter failure to achieve any of its aims", as stated by Des.

Where's the evidience for this? To make such a change as this you need clear cut numbers of dangerous jobs in proportion to non dangerous jobs done. All that you have to go on is anecdote and hearsay and few examples you've come across yourselves Lec et al. Show me some figures and I would be more sympathetic to the proposal.

2. The propsoal would have the effect of reinforcing the old chestnut of "can't get any experience because you don't have any experience to start with", i.e. closed shop and jobs for the boys. and really hard to get a start anywhere. This raises the question of what exactly is the motivation behind this proposal: driving down the pay for less experienced people/driving up the pay for more experienced people, or safety? If it's safety, then we already have established organisations and safety could/should be more rigourously enforced within this existing framework.

3. We now live in an era where a job for life doesn't exist any more. We're constantly being told to be flexible, to be prepared to retrain, to move about for work. But the economy/society doesn't make it easy to retrain if you're over twenty-five or so, or are well-off enough to take three or four years out of work to go to college - and hardly anyone can afford that. So there is a reason for the short courses. I do fully accept that this is not an argument about safety but about training and affordability, but it's got some relevance here.

No need for this.

 

[elektrisien]

1. This License propsal is based on the assumtion that:

"The present system has had quite a few years and is showing its utter failure to achieve any of its aims", as stated by Des.

Where's the evidience for this? To make such a change as this you need clear cut numbers of dangerous jobs in proportion to non dangerous jobs done. All that you have to go on is anecdote and hearsay and few examples you've come across yourselves Lec et al. Show me some figures and I would be more sympathetic to the proposal.

2. The propsoal would have the effect of reinforcing the old chestnut of "can't get any experience because you don't have any experience to start with", i.e. closed shop and jobs for the boys. and really hard to get a start anywhere. This raises the question of what exactly is the motivation behind this proposal: driving down the pay for less experienced people/driving up the pay for more experienced people, or safety? If it's safety, then we already have established organisations and safety could/should be more rigourously enforced within this existing framework.

3. We now live in an era where a job for life doesn't exist any more. We're constantly being told to be flexible, to be prepared to retrain, to move about for work. But the economy/society doesn't make it easy to retrain if you're over twenty-five or so, or are well-off enough to take three or four years out of work to go to college - and hardly anyone can afford that. So there is a reason for the short courses. I do fully accept that this is not an argument about safety but about training and affordability, but it's got some relevance here.

No need for this.

I could not agree more. That is brilliant, especially point 2 and 3.

 

[robsparky1975]

All good points, I will always agree that you cant be an electrican with four weeks training. Can I lay a popular misconception to rest. The short courses do not train you to become an electrician. Yes there is training involved, however, the best way perhaps of describing these courses is to say its four weeks of exams, preceeded by months of study.
However, I wish to make a very strong point to you. I was a Police Officer for 20 years. Lets take one particular issue- Drugs. We raided, we arrested, we sent to prison. We kept a lid on the local drugs scene, but do people still use drugs? yes. So do you want to form an entirely different body to deal with the problem ? I can tell you this, it is not possible to deal with it anymore effectively than it is being dealt with. Same as electrical installations. How are you going to prosecute someone you dont even know exists, or where they have worked? yes I agree their work is sat there waiting to possibly kill someone.
Our worst threat is the DIY person who has performed. We see it all the time. Our Target as Rocker says, must be those doing dodgy electrics for money-you have probably seen them, no sign writing on the van, only a mobile number in the paper etc.
I think you will find that if you find them, and report, your governing body will act. If we have issues with the governing bodies, then it is them we should lobby. They will listen to us as we pay them.
Look through this forum and you will see no negative comments about the schemes, just moaning about their fees. Natural. If there was such a lack of confidence in them, then this forum would be red hot with complaints.I think that a possible best course of action would be to establish from each scheme what their policy is on receiving a rogue trader report.
We are chasing one such person locally, as he is bad. Few others that do a bit etc, have been given details of training courses etc, and have taken the hint.

its not the bloke who wires an extensoin lead off a socket is it jason,and says whats wrong with that,i wanted to tell him that doing 3 years of evening college while holding down a full time job and getting home at 10pm,doing exam after exam.2360 pt1 & 2,16th/17th edition ,2391,etc and cheeky git asks me whats wrong,the clients need to be more aware through national press,just like gas safe,they would not let anyone not qualified do gas so why should electrics not be shown as much,in my view more dangerous,i saw a place the other day where tenant had used old kinder egg shell to put choc block for outside light,not ip66 lol

 

[UNG]

I the think' time served' and apprenticeships is something from the previous century.

You are correct the "proper" apprentice scheme ended in 1984 since then it has been hacked around for no good reason

An electrician is first and foremost an electrical engineer. To be an engineer you need to go to college and study science, maths etc.

I don't know any electricians with a degree which I think is a requirement to be an engineer

It does not take 4 years to learn how to bend conduit. Another thing, installation methods, tegnology etc are changing so quickly that somebody who did an apprenticeship 40years ago, I mean, it means nothing to me. I used to think an electrician is somebody like a tradesman, but they are not, they are much more.

As a spark who served a five year apprenticeship across all the domestic, commercial and industrial sectors with 5 years at college on day release and subsquently did various evening, distance learning and job related courses I have expanded my knowledge far beyond that of most electricians to be told that this counts for nothing I take as an insult

I think you will find generally that installation methods have not changed that much only the materials used

A good electrician is a multi skilled tradesman with an ability to install alot of the modern technology

Eduacation should be much more important and experience less so. If you completed your studies as a doctor, you are a doctor. You dont have to have 4 years hospital experience and do an apprenticeship.

If education is so important why do you not include on the job training as education
I think you will find a doctor has to go "on the tools" for a few years after studying to become qualified

Going to college is hard and diffecult. Not everybody can do it. But times are changing. Quite a few older electricians feel threatened by the new breed of electrician that focus more on academic eduacation rather than practical experience. But the electrical industry is changing, what was good 40 years ago, does not cut it anymore.

College is only as hard and difficult as you want to make it. As an older electrician I do not feel threatened by the new breed of electrician as I read this forum and where would the new breed be without this new technology not sure they could make that important decision on their own without being able to ask a question on here


Overall I think your attack on time served sparks is an insult to those who are

 

[alexg]

The facts are simple.
There are rubbish electricians and great electricians. The difference ?
The latter care and take pride. They understand word of mouth too.
Just Part P or time served ... Not the point onviously. What we do is not hard if you've got basic common sense and a good mind. Jealousy gets nowhere.
I'm tune served by the way. Not proud of it. Proud of my cate and service though. That's harder to do.

 

[Jason Smith]

its not the bloke who wires an extensoin lead off a socket is it jason,and says whats wrong with that,i wanted to tell him that doing 3 years of evening college while holding down a full time job and getting home at 10pm,doing exam after exam.2360 pt1 & 2,16th/17th edition ,2391,etc and cheeky git asks me whats wrong,the clients need to be more aware through national press,just like gas safe,they would not let anyone not qualified do gas so why should electrics not be shown as much,in my view more dangerous,i saw a place the other day where tenant had used old kinder egg shell to put choc block for outside light,not ip66 lol

Hi mate, no thats not the one,he appears to of disappeared, or his work not surfaced again. The one that am looking out for quoted for a rewire (vermin ) took alarge deposit, did half of loft and scarpered when it was pointed out to him that precautions should of been taken.
unfortunately for him the elderly owners son has knowledge of electrical installations because it is a fringe area of his job, hence him being pulled up on his work. Unmarked van etc, and more or less untraceable.

 

[RexT]

Hi all,

The points raised are all valid, at least I think they are. It does seem that we do get the rough end of the stick for some reason. Electricians are or apppear to be under valued compared to other trades. It would be better for all that we have good visibility in the publics eyes like the gas guys. After all, we have been to college etc (and I am now working at one part time in the electrical dept), and we can all understand the points mentioned about how much time was put in studying for the qualifications.

Isnt it about time that the organisations presently involved in the electrical trade got together and made one voice - put the case to these politicians or powers that be to put a working system in being that truely covers what we all say we want.

I must admit I am fed up at being undercut because I cost for doing it right and will not do a dangerous job.

Oh well, sorry for the rant guys, just I would like things to change but I have to be grown up and realise that somewhere money is cutting out cloth accordingly.

Best wishes

Rex

 

[elektrisien]

You are correct the "proper" apprentice scheme ended in 1984 since then it has been hacked around for no good reason



I don't know any electricians with a degree which I think is a requirement to be an engineer



As a spark who served a five year apprenticeship across all the domestic, commercial and industrial sectors with 5 years at college on day release and subsquently did various evening, distance learning and job related courses I have expanded my knowledge far beyond that of most electricians to be told that this counts for nothing I take as an insult

I think you will find generally that installation methods have not changed that much only the materials used

A good electrician is a multi skilled tradesman with an ability to install alot of the modern technology




If education is so important why do you not include on the job training as education
I think you will find a doctor has to go "on the tools" for a few years after studying to become qualified



College is only as hard and difficult as you want to make it. As an older electrician I do not feel threatened by the new breed of electrician as I read this forum and where would the new breed be without this new technology not sure they could make that important decision on their own without being able to ask a question on here


Overall I think your attack on time served sparks is an insult to those who are

First, I meant engineer in the wider sense, not whether you have a degree or not. You can be an engineer by being self taught, and not even attend college. My point is simply that we should take ourselves more seriously.
Experience is crucial in any job, I agree. Ok, my aplologies, sorry if I offended you or any time served electricians, it was not my intention.
You dont know much if you only booktrained, I am aware of that.
What I really meant to say was, I am offended that some in the industry think you need to have done a full apprenticeship to know anything.
Maybe you can tell me exactely what time served means.
Does it mean experienced or what ? If it means experienced, what dont they just call it experienced ?
Please enlighten me !

 

[RexT]

Hi,

I dont think that anyone would believe that you are not experienced by saying that you have only learnt through books but I guess it all breaks down to the definition of competent.

For me I would want some previous experience in doing the work. After all would you want to be flown in an airliner by a pilot who "has read all the books" and passed written exams only or would you like him to have a few hours actually flying before hand? I know this example is not electrics but it is the safety side of things that our customers will quickly remeber when things go wrong.

I think this is a straight forward subject but does have quite a few twists in it.

Rex

 

[Des 56]

Maybe you can tell me exactely what time served means.
Does it mean experienced or what ? If it means experienced, what dont they just call it experienced ?
Please enlighten me !

Time served would portray to me and others that, during the period of study in the classroom gaining the qualifications deemed suitable for an electrician,the workshop practical teaching of general installation work using a variety of industry tools and underpinning practices
This is supplemented during the apprentiship period by a hands on assistant aproach gaining the practices and knowlege that only obseving learning and understanding how a fully experienced trained electrican does the job and by learning by means of those obsevations and hands on assistance

It does seem the way of the world is to reduce anything to its least required amount
The remit of an electrican was a full understanding of all necessary abilities and understanding of the whole of the trade
This has now, by the introduction of domestic installer, sectioned a small part of what an electrican was,and understood to mean
I hear often electricans stating that they know nothing of 3 phase and stick to single phase
That is all well and good to stay within your abilities,but understanding of a wider range of the industry has slowly been lost by the concentration and acceptance of that limit
All electricans should capable of entering and performing in a wide range of works and that requires time and the learning experience that can probably only be acheved by us average mortals in a 4 or 5 year learning period followed by a number of years learning without actually realsing that you are learning,that is experience
It cannot be attained by anybody in short periods,it is not possible
That is my understanding of your question" what is time seved"

 

[Phil]

time-served

Definition:

U.K. fully trained: having completed an apprenticeship and therefore fully competent to work as a tradesperson

If you just said experienced, what could experienced mean? well it could be that you have done your time in college and had a couple of re-wires? or it could mean you have done a couple of bit`s and bat`s.

Time served is as it sounds you have served the amount of time needed to fully complete your apprenticeship,

for the one`s who are not time served there is the other route being through the tech cert side with the nvq that will back up your work based learning and experience, this being open to adults as well as younger school leavers.
hope this helps

 

[elektrisien]

Thanks for your replies. I understand now.
The issue for me was that if you decided to become an electrician later in life, when an apprenticeship is not an option anymore, because of your age or financial implications etc what then ?
How will you ever be considered time served ?
Will you always be considered second rate ?
Like many has mentioned the apprenticeship scheme is dying. The college route seems to be the only way. But not enough is done to get these people into the hands-on trade. You have to volunteer, beg, borrow and steal to get some experience. Something that should be so simple has now become nearly impossible.
Where will the electricians of the future come from ?? Maybe its wise to start importing them from Poland after all.

 

[bugsy]

Dont we already have this in the UK- Niceic is a charity, all profits go to the electrical safety
councill, - The secretary of state says that a person can only be registered with a competent persons body if he/she can pass an assesment etc, with work produced- This again is Napitt, elecsa, niceic etc- The link above once again, infers some kind of slur on those that were able to do a short course. Whether you did a short course or not, you wont get through a first assesment if you lack practical skills and technical electrical knowledge.

I have.nt read all the posts so might be repetative,

The NIC-EIC is not a charity ( it used to be ) and all the schemes are in it for the money ( dispite what they may say, )
A licence scheme properly controlled could only benefit all in our industry however I just can't see a time when DIY stores remove electrical installation materials from their shelves , general builders insist on using a licenced contactor and it all gets government backing.
Then there's the problem of licencing itself, would it based on qualifications, qualifications and experiance or would a new scheme be introduced.
The industry does need sorting, we need the recognition for the skill's we provide and the rates of pay to go with it ( Ive seen some contractors offering £ 7.00 p/h for time served sparks )
We do need licencing sooner rather than later and it needs to be properly controlled

 

[jcarlie]

I quite agree with you bugsy,i think something should be done.I am a time served spark and sweated blood during my apprenticeship,i generally think this route gives the trainee a more rounded education about the industry and invaluable experience.Having said that i think most would agree that you learn more in your first 12 months of being fully qualified and on your own as you do serving your full apprenticeship,or at least i did! I havent really worked with any apprentices recently but i did hear that they have watered down the Am2?? dont know if this is true

 

[Phil]

tis true they have watered down the am2 mate yes, also the 2357 technical side will be watered down version of the 2330. it`s sad really as when you keep watering qualifications down do they stand for as much?? I think not no one says they have to be rocket science but if you can`t do what`s on the 2330 exams should you be doing it? yes there was some tough bit`s on there but all doable with a bit of effort, mind you it`s the effort thing most of them can`t be bothered with now when they come through from school.