Campaign for an electrician's licence scheme...Please Read...

[elektrisien]

I absolutely agree with the majority of what you say, but you disregard the value of experience at your peril. The lack of it may very well kill you or someone else.
Don't dis the older guys, they could save your --- one day! We are all electricans.
Qualifications + Experience = Competent Electrician.
It’s no good knowing the theory if you can not apply it safely.
We cover a very wide range of work, mostly commercial / Industrial, but we still do some Domestic. We also get involved in lots of stuff many people would run from. We embrace new tech and we want to learn. However, day after day after day, we appreciate that without experience you will end up in the brown and smelly.
Don’t get me wrong, we do make mistakes from time to time, but it’s experience that helps us avoid them.
On a daily basis, my guys have to make on the job decisions. The ones with the most experience often make the best decisions and that is often because they are confident in their own abilities.
I appeal to everyone. Do not over estimate your ability, just because you have a certificate. You could make a mistake that could be very costly.
My son is going to Uni this year to become a Architect, knowing it will take up to 7 years to become fully qualified. During the 7 years he will cover theory, but will also need to gain experience. He has already spent 3 years doing A's, and a foundation degree. So in effect it will be 10 years of education and experience, before he calls himself an Architect.

I agree with you, no job can be done without experience. But it seems some people think that if you did not do an apprenticeship, you will never make it. The hammer on experience like its everything. Just as dangerous as the guy with only a certificate, is the guy with all the experience. I have seen experienced electricians say, lets just use that size cable, its what we always used, without taking other factors into consideration. But like you say, experience gives you confidence, and speed. Maybe I just have a chip on my shoulder about this issue.

 

[elektrisien]

That's a very good point.
I would possibly envisage a conversion system, so that EU qualifications etc equal a UK licence at which ever level.
Personaly, I am not a EU supporter. Having had experience working and trading across borders.
This is why all of the feed back is so important, it raises issues that will have to be addressed at some stage.

What about the guys that did the self study courses ? Wont they be penalised ? I think many electricians did not follow the traditional route via an apprenticeship.

 

[RexT]

Hi all,

It seems that we all suffer from the usual thing in that we are up against people who under cut us and do a poor job or others who operate who operate outside the agreed levels of safety / regulations. I agree that we do need somnething effective but surely isnt it as said that there doesnt seem to be active policing? Schemes are great but how many do you have to be a part of?
We are all trying to make a living and its hard enough at the moment. I would happily support anything that was reasonable and would work.
Interesting posts guys.
Best wishes

Rex

 

[darking]

Hi Lec I quite agree but I have found , when asked about my accreditation by customers, that showing them my JIB card, bearing my picture, NI number and detailing my qualifications has given my customers more confidence than a logo painted on a van. I have heard a lot of "cowboy" stories about NICEIC members.

My card costs me a few pounds every 3 years. What does NICEIC charge for membership, their interpretation of the Regs, site assessments etc? and on the subject of the Mickey Mouse Level 2 domestic installer certificate, NICEIC along with some other accreditation companies actually endorses these plonkers. You only get a gold JIb card with "Accredited Electrician" on it when you provide proof of Training , Experience and Qualifications.

They may not police the industry any more than Corgi does for plumbers but at least they set the standard for competence, Training , Experience and Qualifications.

 

[kung]

The way i see it is the only policing out there is us and that is on our own work no card,cert,qual etc guarantee every install we do is safe and good quality the only thing that changes things is if we can sleep at night knowing the possibility that some poor sod might die or be injured or have their property destroyed etc if our work is crap. The fact that a domestic installer and quallified spark has done what they have to get to that grading gives them less chance of being a dodgy trader from hell ! that said theres good and bad in all ! i have seen some real crap from a domestic installer and some from a fully quallified time served spark as in truth we all have ! having said that ive worked with some very good domestic installers as well as sparks ! consider this possibility alzheimer's ! if your working and get this even in a mild form how will you know ? who will know ? how safe is your work ? how much work will you do that could be unsafe before its found out if at all ? will you be prossicuted in court if its proven you suffer from this even if someone dies ? how many jobs from one assessment do you do till another ? now consider this bipoler ! etc etc only we can tell or can we ? onece you have your quals thats it ! your qualified ! think about all what youve done that youve done thousands of times before year in year out will the phone go later giving you bad news ? or will you fail your next assessment while trying to do a Ze with a coat hanger ? I do support this licence scheme but although it will help will like all the others protect the public from this possibility ? Im now off the mow the carpet and hover the lawn so be on this phone later !

 

[acvc]

1. This License propsal is based on the assumtion that:

"The present system has had quite a few years and is showing its utter failure to achieve any of its aims", as stated by Des.

Where's the evidience for this? To make such a change as this you need clear cut numbers of dangerous jobs in proportion to non dangerous jobs done. All that you have to go on is anecdote and hearsay and few examples you've come across yourselves Lec et al. Show me some figures and I would be more sympathetic to the proposal.

2. The propsoal would have the effect of reinforcing the old chestnut of "can't get any experience because you don't have any experience to start with", i.e. closed shop and jobs for the boys. and really hard to get a start anywhere. This raises the question of what exactly is the motivation behind this proposal: driving down the pay for less experienced people/driving up the pay for more experienced people, or safety? If it's safety, then we already have established organisations and safety could/should be more rigourously enforced within this existing framework.

3. We now live in an era where a job for life doesn't exist any more. We're constantly being told to be flexible, to be prepared to retrain, to move about for work. But the economy/society doesn't make it easy to retrain if you're over twenty-five or so, or are well-off enough to take three or four years out of work to go to college - and hardly anyone can afford that. So there is a reason for the short courses. I do fully accept that this is not an argument about safety but about training and affordability, but it's got some relevance here.

No need for this.

 

[elektrisien]

1. This License propsal is based on the assumtion that:

"The present system has had quite a few years and is showing its utter failure to achieve any of its aims", as stated by Des.

Where's the evidience for this? To make such a change as this you need clear cut numbers of dangerous jobs in proportion to non dangerous jobs done. All that you have to go on is anecdote and hearsay and few examples you've come across yourselves Lec et al. Show me some figures and I would be more sympathetic to the proposal.

2. The propsoal would have the effect of reinforcing the old chestnut of "can't get any experience because you don't have any experience to start with", i.e. closed shop and jobs for the boys. and really hard to get a start anywhere. This raises the question of what exactly is the motivation behind this proposal: driving down the pay for less experienced people/driving up the pay for more experienced people, or safety? If it's safety, then we already have established organisations and safety could/should be more rigourously enforced within this existing framework.

3. We now live in an era where a job for life doesn't exist any more. We're constantly being told to be flexible, to be prepared to retrain, to move about for work. But the economy/society doesn't make it easy to retrain if you're over twenty-five or so, or are well-off enough to take three or four years out of work to go to college - and hardly anyone can afford that. So there is a reason for the short courses. I do fully accept that this is not an argument about safety but about training and affordability, but it's got some relevance here.

No need for this.

I could not agree more. That is brilliant, especially point 2 and 3.

 

[robsparky1975]

All good points, I will always agree that you cant be an electrican with four weeks training. Can I lay a popular misconception to rest. The short courses do not train you to become an electrician. Yes there is training involved, however, the best way perhaps of describing these courses is to say its four weeks of exams, preceeded by months of study.
However, I wish to make a very strong point to you. I was a Police Officer for 20 years. Lets take one particular issue- Drugs. We raided, we arrested, we sent to prison. We kept a lid on the local drugs scene, but do people still use drugs? yes. So do you want to form an entirely different body to deal with the problem ? I can tell you this, it is not possible to deal with it anymore effectively than it is being dealt with. Same as electrical installations. How are you going to prosecute someone you dont even know exists, or where they have worked? yes I agree their work is sat there waiting to possibly kill someone.
Our worst threat is the DIY person who has performed. We see it all the time. Our Target as Rocker says, must be those doing dodgy electrics for money-you have probably seen them, no sign writing on the van, only a mobile number in the paper etc.
I think you will find that if you find them, and report, your governing body will act. If we have issues with the governing bodies, then it is them we should lobby. They will listen to us as we pay them.
Look through this forum and you will see no negative comments about the schemes, just moaning about their fees. Natural. If there was such a lack of confidence in them, then this forum would be red hot with complaints.I think that a possible best course of action would be to establish from each scheme what their policy is on receiving a rogue trader report.
We are chasing one such person locally, as he is bad. Few others that do a bit etc, have been given details of training courses etc, and have taken the hint.

its not the bloke who wires an extensoin lead off a socket is it jason,and says whats wrong with that,i wanted to tell him that doing 3 years of evening college while holding down a full time job and getting home at 10pm,doing exam after exam.2360 pt1 & 2,16th/17th edition ,2391,etc and cheeky git asks me whats wrong,the clients need to be more aware through national press,just like gas safe,they would not let anyone not qualified do gas so why should electrics not be shown as much,in my view more dangerous,i saw a place the other day where tenant had used old kinder egg shell to put choc block for outside light,not ip66 lol

 

[UNG]

I the think' time served' and apprenticeships is something from the previous century.

You are correct the "proper" apprentice scheme ended in 1984 since then it has been hacked around for no good reason

An electrician is first and foremost an electrical engineer. To be an engineer you need to go to college and study science, maths etc.

I don't know any electricians with a degree which I think is a requirement to be an engineer

It does not take 4 years to learn how to bend conduit. Another thing, installation methods, tegnology etc are changing so quickly that somebody who did an apprenticeship 40years ago, I mean, it means nothing to me. I used to think an electrician is somebody like a tradesman, but they are not, they are much more.

As a spark who served a five year apprenticeship across all the domestic, commercial and industrial sectors with 5 years at college on day release and subsquently did various evening, distance learning and job related courses I have expanded my knowledge far beyond that of most electricians to be told that this counts for nothing I take as an insult

I think you will find generally that installation methods have not changed that much only the materials used

A good electrician is a multi skilled tradesman with an ability to install alot of the modern technology

Eduacation should be much more important and experience less so. If you completed your studies as a doctor, you are a doctor. You dont have to have 4 years hospital experience and do an apprenticeship.

If education is so important why do you not include on the job training as education
I think you will find a doctor has to go "on the tools" for a few years after studying to become qualified

Going to college is hard and diffecult. Not everybody can do it. But times are changing. Quite a few older electricians feel threatened by the new breed of electrician that focus more on academic eduacation rather than practical experience. But the electrical industry is changing, what was good 40 years ago, does not cut it anymore.

College is only as hard and difficult as you want to make it. As an older electrician I do not feel threatened by the new breed of electrician as I read this forum and where would the new breed be without this new technology not sure they could make that important decision on their own without being able to ask a question on here


Overall I think your attack on time served sparks is an insult to those who are

 

[alexg]

The facts are simple.
There are rubbish electricians and great electricians. The difference ?
The latter care and take pride. They understand word of mouth too.
Just Part P or time served ... Not the point onviously. What we do is not hard if you've got basic common sense and a good mind. Jealousy gets nowhere.
I'm tune served by the way. Not proud of it. Proud of my cate and service though. That's harder to do.