Campaign for an electrician's licence scheme...Please Read...

[Lec]

Who would support the introduction of a Licence scheme for electricans, as used in Australia, Canada, New Zealand etc etc.

Well, you can.

I have heard so many electrcians say "what we need is a licensing scheme like in Australia, that would solve the problem..... But it will never happen"

Take a look at L-E-C.org.uk - The Licensed Electricians Campaign

If the vast majority of electricians supported this campaign, the government wiould have to listen and act.

Comments please.

 

[Guest123]

Re: Campaign for an electrician's licence scheme

I'll make this one a "sticky thread" at the top of the forum.

 

[Jason Smith]

Who would support the introduction of a Licence scheme for electricans, as used in Australia, Canada, New Zealand etc etc.

Well, you can.

I have heard so many electrcians say "what we need is a licensing scheme like in Australia, that would solve the problem..... But it will never happen"

Take a look at L-E-C.org.uk - The Licensed Electricians Campaign

If the vast majority of electricians supported this campaign, the government wiould have to listen and act.

Comments please.

Dont we already have this in the UK- Niceic is a charity, all profits go to the electrical safety
councill, - The secretary of state says that a person can only be registered with a competent persons body if he/she can pass an assesment etc, with work produced- This again is Napitt, elecsa, niceic etc- The link above once again, infers some kind of slur on those that were able to do a short course. Whether you did a short course or not, you wont get through a first assesment if you lack practical skills and technical electrical knowledge.

 

[Lec]

Jason, No one should take this as a slur, except perhaps the cowboys out there.

To say the NICEIC are already doing this is perhaps a little naive.
Short courses have their place, but experience has no substitute.
A licence would reflect the level of qualification and experience, in the level of licence issued. Is that not fair?
I think the Part P issue is a red herring, as we all know that it does not work in the way it was intended.
Why do we tend to want to squabble between us rather than work together to improve things for us all.
The campaign is intended to unite electricians, not divide.

 

[Jason Smith]

agreed mate, can I clear up a couple of things- ALL of our scheme providers not just the niceic are the link between us and the licence provider- the secretary of state. I am full scope, that means qualified anything in a dwelling- as opposed to defined scope, if a inspector had not passed my major works, i.e full rewires, I would not hold that "licence" which is a reflection of my practical and technical ability.
What I would like to draw issue with, is the fact that it would appear that a person who has attended a short course is to be treated as a person with no experience. Now that could of course be absolutely true. And is likely to be. I say therfore, that He/she is not likely to get through a Assesment and therfore be Licensed, or in this country, as a competent person. We need to stop this sort of person practicing electrics just because he may be good at passing exams. Totally agree. If you could tell me that a licence scheme woulds stop this as opposed to the one we already have, IMO, than it well get my vote. I personally can build houses- very important if you want to know how to re wire one, I agree that mr office worker, can pass his electrical exams and still not know what an SDS looks like, in my opinion thats where the schemes come in. How would a licensing scheme differ, as It would have to be based on technical/practical ability - Not arguing, just expressing.

 

[cbw]

Well writen Jason, I have nothing to add how would another licensing scheme be any better, could we not just inprove what we have allready????

 

[super_stuey]

In my opinion you can have new schemes, licenses, cards etc every year if you so wish. None of them will ever mean a single thing until they are POLICED, and reports of dodgy/un-licensed work are followed up and PUNISHED.

 

[pmac10]

lec.
where would an industrial maintenance electrican lie in this scheme? i consider myself more than competent to carry out minor domestic work(have 2381) but also know my limits. im not a qualified domestic installer but consider myself competent. i also suspect people who have done the short courses, who are now educated, would also know their limits (knowledge can be frightening),
it wouldnt really affect my daily life, but in my experience, time servred doesnt always equal competent,
good luck anyway mate. (and i still might sign up)

 

[Jason Smith]

NICEIC Connections mag this month reports that a unregistered company was fined £5000 for five offences under the building act 1984 and building regs act 2000. The faulty electrical installation was carried out in Bilton and discovered by a Councill bUilding inspector. The councill had not been notified and the installation was considered to be so dangerous that immediate action was taken to disconnect the supply.

Now I agree that we need to stop the cowboys. Big time. But the problem is no one knows they are there (obviously in the above quote someone found out ) The only people that can stop them is you and I. when we come across an installation that clearly, is well say no more. It is up to you and I to police ourselves, And report back to our governing bodies.

Often a quiet word respectfully done, non threatening etc, willfrequently stop our "unlicensed friends from operating, or put them on the straight and narrow.

 

[Jason Smith]

lec.
where would an industrial maintenance electrican lie in this scheme? i consider myself more than competent to carry out minor domestic work(have 2381) but also know my limits. im not a qualified domestic installer but consider myself competent. i also suspect people who have done the short courses, who are now educated, would also know their limits (knowledge can be frightening),
it wouldnt really affect my daily life, but in my experience, time servred doesnt always equal competent,
good luck anyway mate. (and i still might sign up)

I agree with you Pmac time served doesnt always equal competent, and if you presented me with a hundred time served, and a hundred short courses (of which I am one ) I would predict that if all 200 were to be judged, then at least 190 of those judged would come from the time served group. My point is that, an inspection from a competent persons scheme inspector should sort em out. We should be directing our efforts to that, as that is what we have got. may be interesting to know how many our scheme providers fail each year, I already know its enough for the Niceic to have to issue a leaflet on common causes of failure ...........................I meant judges good enough coming from the time served.

 

[bibzo]

It’s only the British electrician that would accept a system we have no say in
The electricians in the rest on Europe would be banging the drum, and politicians would be jumping

 

[pmac10]

jason s, i have been in FT/PT engineering education from 1997, in my experience, and i was one of them, 16/17 year olds learn to pass an exam and then dump the info in preperation for the next, as one gets older you realise you need this info. people i have met who have done short courses are people who want to learn and are sponges for information, not turning up cause mummy says so.
a large part of my time day to day is taken up pulling time served maintenance sparks out of holes they have no idea how they dug. Bar one, our apprentices are uninterested, cheeky little *****, so i focus my attention on the one who wants to learn, i can remember apprentiships as highly sought after positions and it ****es me off when so many unwilling kids seem to have them forced upon them when many 25-30 year olds would jump at the chance. rant over, lec i still might join

 

[Lec]

Guys, thanks for the comments, all good points.
Have you read the stuff on the webs site, I think it might answer some of the questions.
I will try to respond to the issues raised.
As we all know Part P has not addressed the issues that it was intended to.
There are many people out there with little experience, having used some one else’s work to get through the Part P assessment, there are even courses run in South Wales that say they can get you through the competent persons assessment, after just 4 weeks training. The list goes on. But Part P is just part of the problem.
Try raising a complaint and see if the system is policed. Just don’t hold your breath. Building control do not have the resources or the knowledge to police the system. The Approval bodies don’t police things either. Oh yes there are headlines in their mags, rogue electrician prosecuted etc etc, but it’s just a very very tiny drop in an ocean of dangerous, poor quality work out there.
The problem is that the approval bodies do not have to account to anyone. If they do not perform, no one is there to hold them to account.
I am not saying we should get rid of the NICEIC or the ECA, they do some excellent work for the industry and we would be much worse off without them. However, they do not and could not police the industry effectively, at the end of the day their primary aim is to make profit. The profit is then used to grow their organisations, like any business. You may also like to take a look at who runs these organisations and their back grounds. I think you will be surprised, you will struggle to find any electricians.
The licensing scheme would issue licenses, based on qualifications, proof of ability (assessment) and most importantly, experience. Thus everyone should get the correct level of license, for the line of electrical work that they are involved in. If you want or need a higher level licence, you will have to train, pass assessments etc to prove you are competent at that level. Is that not fair.
Importantly the scheme would be run on a not for profit basis, with totally transparent accounts, so that everyone could see where the money is used.
I would envisage the scheme using the existing inspectors on a sub-contract bases. There jobs would be secure so long as they performed. If the inspectors didn’t provide a good service for the money paid, questions would be asked and if necessary contracts withdrawn. How about random inspections. Those out there doing it correctly wouldn’t have anything to worry about, but those breaking the rules would hate the idea.
The licensing scheme would be need to be run by qualified and experienced electricians, with one aim. To raise standards and ensure that all electrical work was carried out to the standards set in BS7671 and Best Practice guidelines set out by the Electrical Safety Council.
If we can raise the standards or work, we will raise the standards of training, this in turn will raise the status of electricians and that will raise pay rates.
Tell me what the existing trade bodies have done to achieve any of these. They will tell you that they have done lots, but the real truth is that standards have dropped, training standards have dropped, our status has dropped.
Why do we struggle to get well educated kids into apprenticeships, the simple truth is that schools and the public, see the electrical trade as a low skill, low status occupation and therefore dissuade the high achievers from entering the trade, instead they push low achievers into the trade. We then end up with kids that really don’t want to learn and end up wasting ours & JTLs time and money. This then leads to a lowering of training standards, in an attempt to try and get them through their apprenticeships, when they are really not capable.
The only way we can change this down ward spiral is to take back control of the industry, which can only be achieved with a new organisation, with higher standards and expectations. Free from the burdens of profit & politics.
I don’t have anywhere near all the answers, but at least I’m trying to start the ball rolling in an attempt to improve the electricians lot.
Don’t sit on the fence, unhappy with the way things are, What have you got to loose ? Sign up and support the campaign, it’s just the beginning of a long journey towards a much better industry, which you will have the opportunity to shape.

 

[rocker]

What have you got to loose ?

What you are trying to do seems very admirable, but unfortunately politicians will have to be involved somewhere along the line. What this invariably means is that nothing will actually change, but there will be something else for us to pay out. It's sad but it's true. This is politics' intrinsic quality. As jason said, we need to be policing ouselves - the best thing we can do is start grassing the morons. I know it's one of these things that is 'not done', but at the end of the day there are people out there putting in wholly unsafe installations - if every spark started reportingpoor jobs then we would eventually weed out these guys, and the next generation of cowboys would know better than to mess with electricity.

All a new licencing scheme is going to do is line the government's pockets and put more of us in the dole queue.

 

[Des 56]

Excellent acount of the state of our industry Lec

I wish the petition well,but have my doubts about its possible positive outcome

People should not take national registration as an attack on who was trained where and how long that training took

My hope for such a scheme would be that the register would have skill levels and competence levels that stated the persons position against recognised national levels and the range of work within those capabilities

The present system has had quite a few years and is showing its utter failure to achieve any of its aims



However instead of regulating installations and electricans,regulate test and inspection

If there has to be regulation,lets regulate inspection and testing and leave the actual installing to anybody who thinks they can install ( as is nowadays)
In the end the installions will improve because of that testing and inspection regime

Nevertheless I will sign up to it,because it would be better than continuing with the complete nonesense we have at the moment

 

[darking]

I would have thought JIB accreditation as an approved electrician was just that

 

[Lec]

What you are trying to do seems very admirable, but unfortunately politicians will have to be involved somewhere along the line. What this invariably means is that nothing will actually change, but there will be something else for us to pay out. It's sad but it's true. This is politics' intrinsic quality. As jason said, we need to be policing ouselves - the best thing we can do is start grassing the morons. I know it's one of these things that is 'not done', but at the end of the day there are people out there putting in wholly unsafe installations - if every spark started reportingpoor jobs then we would eventually weed out these guys, and the next generation of cowboys would know better than to mess with electricity.

All a new licencing scheme is going to do is line the government's pockets and put more of us in the dole queue.

Rocker, Your attitude is one of the reasons I got off my --- and started something that CAN make a difference and CAN change the way things are.
Do not under estimate the effect my campaign has already had.
You may like to know that I already have an MP involved.
If we just lie down and accept what we are given, then yes, nothing will change.
For god sake stand up and help me make a difference.
If we work together we can ensure that the licensing scheme works for us not against us.
If we let others take control (believe me they are trying) through apathy, don't be surprised when we end up with a system that we don't want.
I'm interested to know why such a scheme would put you on the dole queue? Good electricians, should prosper from it.

 

[Lec]

I would have thought JIB accreditation as an approved electrician was just that

Darking, the JIB card is along the right lines, but it isn't linked to anything that polices the industry. Once again, it's an attempt, but does not go all the way.

 

[Jason Smith]

All good points, I will always agree that you cant be an electrican with four weeks training. Can I lay a popular misconception to rest. The short courses do not train you to become an electrician. Yes there is training involved, however, the best way perhaps of describing these courses is to say its four weeks of exams, preceeded by months of study.
However, I wish to make a very strong point to you. I was a Police Officer for 20 years. Lets take one particular issue- Drugs. We raided, we arrested, we sent to prison. We kept a lid on the local drugs scene, but do people still use drugs? yes. So do you want to form an entirely different body to deal with the problem ? I can tell you this, it is not possible to deal with it anymore effectively than it is being dealt with. Same as electrical installations. How are you going to prosecute someone you dont even know exists, or where they have worked? yes I agree their work is sat there waiting to possibly kill someone.
Our worst threat is the DIY person who has performed. We see it all the time. Our Target as Rocker says, must be those doing dodgy electrics for money-you have probably seen them, no sign writing on the van, only a mobile number in the paper etc.
I think you will find that if you find them, and report, your governing body will act. If we have issues with the governing bodies, then it is them we should lobby. They will listen to us as we pay them.
Look through this forum and you will see no negative comments about the schemes, just moaning about their fees. Natural. If there was such a lack of confidence in them, then this forum would be red hot with complaints.I think that a possible best course of action would be to establish from each scheme what their policy is on receiving a rogue trader report.
We are chasing one such person locally, as he is bad. Few others that do a bit etc, have been given details of training courses etc, and have taken the hint.

 

[lobsterbob]

Being a "new" member of this forum please excuse my ignorance but in my opinion having yet another license or body (you have ECS, NICEIC, ELECSA, JIB ect ect) isn't this yet another cost to pay out a cost which customers will ultimatly pay for. I've been looking for work for a while now and the criteria keeps changing you need a topman license a cerificate to dig holes G31-1 or something! an asbestos awarness cert, an ECS card - well this all costs money. And although I think yes more qualifications more checks ect are good - what isn't good are DIYers - ban them selling anything electrical to Joe Pubic that way only qualified electricians can purchase, supply and instal eqipment. Even the BS7671 states a competent person - who says whos competnet?? Anyways that's what I think. Peace brothers

 

[Lec]

Hi Lobsterbob.
Please go to the lec webs site. Follow some of the links which will take you to various sites where licensing schemes are in place and your questions will be answered.
Basically, a licensing scheme would address all of the issues you raised.
As far as cost is concerned. No it should not add cost, it should reduce cost.
You will have to be licensed, but membership of associations etc would be your choice.
The cost of joining would reduce as you won't be paying for the assessment as that would be done as part of the licensing system.

 

[rocker]

Rocker, Your attitude is one of the reasons I got off my --- and started something that CAN make a difference and CAN change the way things are.......
......You may like to know that I already have an MP involved......
...........I'm interested to know why such a scheme would put you on the dole queue? Good electricians, should prosper from it...........

What I was saying is that we SHOULD do something about it - we shoud start taking shoddy work seriously and start reporting it.

If you have an MP involved I'm afraid that makes me even less eager to join up.

It will put people in the dole queue because all us good boys who are registered will have to pay through the nose to be a part of it (on top of what we have to pay now - can you seriously see the government CLOSING DOWN the existing schemes and losing all those votes ahem I mean jobs), but the cowboys and the renegade Polaks who are not and never-will-be registered will still do cheap electrical work and force prices down. I'm sure I don't need to spell it out for you, somethings going to have to give.

- Australia and New Zealand don't have a problem with completely unqualified people coming into the country and disappearing. I would say that is more of a contributing factor to their success than having a little photocard or whatever -

The industry is regulated by several organisations. It has gone from a complete free-for-all to where it is now in a few short years. Rome was not built in a day and all that. The part P schemes probably have quite a long way to go, and that will take some time - they need to get everyone registered and educated first, then maybe they can go after the naughty boys.

I have no quarrel with you, and I'm happy to see you're doing something about what you believe in, however I'm sorry but I don't believe in it. We've had quite enough upheaval over the last few years, let's wait and see it through before starting all over again.

EDIT: It looks like my 'closing down the schemes' thing has already been covered, however I still cannot see the Gov't taking these huge organisations and changing their status from 'compulsory' to 'optional'. I reckon they may have something to say about that, and a few lobbyists in their pockets to say it.

 

[DurhamSparky]

no work on today Will...???
nice long post

 

[rocker]

Yep, laundry day. And I've got all my recycling to sort through, of course!

 

[DurhamSparky]

im doing the sums of my business!!!

since 1st Jan i have managed to spend in total including Capital investments £7,553.75 and i have returned the small sum in the region of £2500


not a bad capital investment for the future EYH!!

 

[rocker]

I'm looking at the same kind of balance, ooh nice. Going to try a few new tricks this afternoon and hopefully get some work on. IT'S OUT THERE WE'VE JUST GOTTA GO AND GET IT!!!

By the way did you ever switch on your meteor electricals?

 

[DurhamSparky]

not yet!! its installed and fixed but until i get the nod from

A) the builder B) the plasterer C) the tiler D) the joiner E) the Building Inspector F) the plumber G) the bloke from next door

i have to wait my turn to get access back in to the property..! dont help that the Incomers from property are right next to front door and me working behind said door means nobody canget in and out with out me scouling at them!

also got 9 downlights and the usual stuff to wire in place also!!

Im going to collect a hire car shortly as Focus is now Illegal and i dont have delivery of Van yet so my afternoon is going to be spent poping leaflets in doors! also going to throw my business card in with some leaflets!

 

[aptsys]

Where in your scheme would this leave DIYers/unlicensed individuals? In Australia and NZ, you need to call in a licensed electrician just to replace a light switch or light fitting, yet you could be a perfectly competant industrial electrician.

The last thing we need is more red tape...

 

[Lec]

As an industrial electrician, you would recieve a license if you wanted one. Yes you would have to apply, but as you say, it would save you employing the services of some one with a license.

 

[Lec]

What I was saying is that we SHOULD do something about it - we shoud start taking shoddy work seriously and start reporting it.

If you have an MP involved I'm afraid that makes me even less eager to join up.
Sorry, but they are our elected representitives and the only people that can help push this through !

It will put people in the dole queue because all us good boys who are registered will have to pay through the nose to be a part of it (on top of what we have to pay now - can you seriously see the government CLOSING DOWN the existing schemes and losing all those votes ahem I mean jobs), but the cowboys and the renegade Polaks who are not and never-will-be registered will still do cheap electrical work and force prices down. I'm sure I don't need to spell it out for you, somethings going to have to give. That's what happens now, a licence would make that illegal. Please read the web site and my previous comments, the scheme would be "not for profit", so you would not pay through the nose. There isn't any jobs at risk, again read my previous posts.

- Australia and New Zealand don't have a problem with completely unqualified people coming into the country and disappearing. I would say that is more of a contributing factor to their success than having a little photocard or whatever - Not sure that's realy true?

The industry is regulated by several organisations. It has gone from a complete free-for-all to where it is now in a few short years. Rome was not built in a day and all that. The part P schemes probably have quite a long way to go, and that will take some time - they need to get everyone registered and educated first, then maybe they can go after the naughty boys. So how does Part P control all commercial, Industrial, etc non domestic works. It does not now and will not in the future. Think wider than Domestic.

I have no quarrel with you, and I'm happy to see you're doing something about what you believe in, however I'm sorry but I don't believe in it. We've had quite enough upheaval over the last few years, let's wait and see it through before starting all over again. We have no quarrel, I'm realy pleased you have posted, the feed back in invaluable and you have the right to your beliefs. Do we wait and accept what they decide to give us, or do we make a stand now and get some thing we want? Perhaps I know to much of what is happening behine closed doors within the various organisations.

EDIT: It looks like my 'closing down the schemes' thing has already been covered, however I still cannot see the Gov't taking these huge organisations and changing their status from 'compulsory' to 'optional'. I reckon they may have something to say about that, and a few lobbyists in their pockets to say it.

Are we not more powerfull in numbers. yes the organisations are rattled already, but why should we be worried, after all it's our industry, they act for us. well they should, they just seem to forget it some times.

 

[rocker]

MPs may be elected representatives and you are absolutely right, nothing would happen without their say-so, but that doesn't stop them being either crooked or obsessed with their various 'departments'. That is why nothing like this will EVER work properly. And we havent even gone into the civil-service side of things.

LEC these people don't care what's legal or not. They are not going to stop acting the way they do because it becomes illegal. Realistically they could be prosecuted now for the terrible works they do, so what's the difference?

You can call it 'not for profit' until the cows come home, but the people who work for it will have to be paid, and the departments will have to be run, and the MPs will have to have their bit, and it will have to be taxed, and so on and so forth. It will end up costing a lot, and as I said before theres no way the current schemes will be dissolved, so it will be on top of what we're paying now.

Australia and NZ do not allow unskilled migrants in to the country. There is not an influx of people coming into the country with either no skills or the limited skills learned according to the low-standards of their respective countries. Sure you have to have a licence which you will get if you're a good and honest spark, but surely that's the case in this country with Part P etc. All the trained competent sparks ARE registered, once again we are coming back to the issue of people working 'under the radar', who couldn't give two hoots if a licence is produced because they aren't regsitered now and they won't be registered in the future. When it comes down to it, most customers will happily turn a blind eye to the licence issue if the price is low.

I'm only talking about domestic, and I was under the impression you were too, as you've said to someone else that they could have a licence if they wanted to for commercial, but wouldn't really need one. I've probably misread there though. I am not an industrial spark, but I'm fairly sure you don't get too many cowboys in that game anyway.

As I've said a few times what you're doing I'm sure is great in your eyes, and the eyes of many others. I just feel that you're labouring under the misaprehension that the world and specifically this country runs according to your ideals - unfortunately it doesnt. With the current 'bureaucracy' government of crooks we have (and may 6th isn't going to change a damn thing, regardless of who gets in) this sort of thing would never work the way you want it to. It will be turned into yet another cash cow, that I can guarantee, and the only benefit will be to the govenment and to those running it.

And, as I've said, 'Part P' is already here, and it hasn't even got started yet. From a domestic point of view at least, it's whole point is to regulate and 'licence' the industry. Your scheme would put billions down the tubes before any results were ever seen.

 

[Deleted member 9648]

Been following this thread with interest being not entirely sure where I stand.....and I have to say I lean towards Rockers view above....the cowboys will find a way round it and the rest of us will pay through the nose for it.

 

[aptsys]

Interestingly, Australia has one of the highest percentages of electrical related injuries in the world.

 

[elektrisien]

I the think' time served' and apprenticeships is something from the previous century. An electrician is first and foremost an electrical engineer. To be an engineer you need to go to college and study science, maths etc. I dont want to be called a Spark. That sound stupid and reminds me of fat block in dirty overalls. It should be professional. It does not take 4 years to learn how to bend conduit. Another thing, installation methods, tegnology etc are changing so quickly that somebody who did an apprenticeship 40years ago, I mean, it means nothing to me. I used to think an electrician is somebody like a tradesman, but they are not, they are much more. Eduacation should be much more important and experience less so. If you completed your studies as a doctor, you are a doctor. You dont have to have 4 years hospital experience and do an apprenticeship. Going to college is hard and diffecult. Not everybody can do it. But times are changing. Quite a few older electricians feel threatened by the new breed of electrician that focus more on academic eduacation rather than practical experience. But the electrical industry is changing, what was good 40 years ago, does not cut it anymore.

 

[elektrisien]

The electrical industry is moving towards full harmonizing with the rest of the EU. Freedom of movement and labour is one of the principles of the EU. If you create such a body as proposed, how will electricians from other EU countries fit into it ? You cannot deny them to work. How will they comply with entry requirements ? Or will this register be for all of Europa ?

 

[Phil]

I have to agree and disagree with the college experience issue.
yes there is a great deal to be learned at college But this does not make up for the day to day experience. I have worked with a vast range of people and all the theory in the world is no good when they get into doing the job hands on. on the same note though an electrician with just experience and no underpinning knowledge leaves a lot to be desired. like i said i have worked with the good and the bad , a little knowledge is dangerous and the real world of lifting boards is just not taught in college. college experience and the nvq is a good mixture.

 

[b4champ]

Hey, could i work on transformers if i go to community college for 1 year to get a certificate. Or do i have to go two years and get a diploma?

 

[rocker]

What, now or on this proposed scheme?

 

[Lec]

The electrical industry is moving towards full harmonizing with the rest of the EU. Freedom of movement and labour is one of the principles of the EU. If you create such a body as proposed, how will electricians from other EU countries fit into it ? You cannot deny them to work. How will they comply with entry requirements ? Or will this register be for all of Europa ?

That's a very good point.
I would possibly envisage a conversion system, so that EU qualifications etc equal a UK licence at which ever level.
Personaly, I am not a EU supporter. Having had experience working and trading across borders.
This is why all of the feed back is so important, it raises issues that will have to be addressed at some stage.

 

[Lec]

I the think' time served' and apprenticeships is something from the previous century. An electrician is first and foremost an electrical engineer. To be an engineer you need to go to college and study science, maths etc. I dont want to be called a Spark. That sound stupid and reminds me of fat block in dirty overalls. It should be professional. It does not take 4 years to learn how to bend conduit. Another thing, installation methods, tegnology etc are changing so quickly that somebody who did an apprenticeship 40years ago, I mean, it means nothing to me. I used to think an electrician is somebody like a tradesman, but they are not, they are much more. Eduacation should be much more important and experience less so. If you completed your studies as a doctor, you are a doctor. You dont have to have 4 years hospital experience and do an apprenticeship. Going to college is hard and diffecult. Not everybody can do it. But times are changing. Quite a few older electricians feel threatened by the new breed of electrician that focus more on academic eduacation rather than practical experience. But the electrical industry is changing, what was good 40 years ago, does not cut it anymore.

I absolutely agree with the majority of what you say, but you disregard the value of experience at your peril. The lack of it may very well kill you or someone else.
Don't dis the older guys, they could save your --- one day! We are all electricans.
Qualifications + Experience = Competent Electrician.
It’s no good knowing the theory if you can not apply it safely.
We cover a very wide range of work, mostly commercial / Industrial, but we still do some Domestic. We also get involved in lots of stuff many people would run from. We embrace new tech and we want to learn. However, day after day after day, we appreciate that without experience you will end up in the brown and smelly.
Don’t get me wrong, we do make mistakes from time to time, but it’s experience that helps us avoid them.
On a daily basis, my guys have to make on the job decisions. The ones with the most experience often make the best decisions and that is often because they are confident in their own abilities.
I appeal to everyone. Do not over estimate your ability, just because you have a certificate. You could make a mistake that could be very costly.
My son is going to Uni this year to become a Architect, knowing it will take up to 7 years to become fully qualified. During the 7 years he will cover theory, but will also need to gain experience. He has already spent 3 years doing A's, and a foundation degree. So in effect it will be 10 years of education and experience, before he calls himself an Architect.

 

[elektrisien]

I absolutely agree with the majority of what you say, but you disregard the value of experience at your peril. The lack of it may very well kill you or someone else.
Don't dis the older guys, they could save your --- one day! We are all electricans.
Qualifications + Experience = Competent Electrician.
It’s no good knowing the theory if you can not apply it safely.
We cover a very wide range of work, mostly commercial / Industrial, but we still do some Domestic. We also get involved in lots of stuff many people would run from. We embrace new tech and we want to learn. However, day after day after day, we appreciate that without experience you will end up in the brown and smelly.
Don’t get me wrong, we do make mistakes from time to time, but it’s experience that helps us avoid them.
On a daily basis, my guys have to make on the job decisions. The ones with the most experience often make the best decisions and that is often because they are confident in their own abilities.
I appeal to everyone. Do not over estimate your ability, just because you have a certificate. You could make a mistake that could be very costly.
My son is going to Uni this year to become a Architect, knowing it will take up to 7 years to become fully qualified. During the 7 years he will cover theory, but will also need to gain experience. He has already spent 3 years doing A's, and a foundation degree. So in effect it will be 10 years of education and experience, before he calls himself an Architect.

I agree with you, no job can be done without experience. But it seems some people think that if you did not do an apprenticeship, you will never make it. The hammer on experience like its everything. Just as dangerous as the guy with only a certificate, is the guy with all the experience. I have seen experienced electricians say, lets just use that size cable, its what we always used, without taking other factors into consideration. But like you say, experience gives you confidence, and speed. Maybe I just have a chip on my shoulder about this issue.

 

[elektrisien]

That's a very good point.
I would possibly envisage a conversion system, so that EU qualifications etc equal a UK licence at which ever level.
Personaly, I am not a EU supporter. Having had experience working and trading across borders.
This is why all of the feed back is so important, it raises issues that will have to be addressed at some stage.

What about the guys that did the self study courses ? Wont they be penalised ? I think many electricians did not follow the traditional route via an apprenticeship.

 

[RexT]

Hi all,

It seems that we all suffer from the usual thing in that we are up against people who under cut us and do a poor job or others who operate who operate outside the agreed levels of safety / regulations. I agree that we do need somnething effective but surely isnt it as said that there doesnt seem to be active policing? Schemes are great but how many do you have to be a part of?
We are all trying to make a living and its hard enough at the moment. I would happily support anything that was reasonable and would work.
Interesting posts guys.
Best wishes

Rex

 

[darking]

Hi Lec I quite agree but I have found , when asked about my accreditation by customers, that showing them my JIB card, bearing my picture, NI number and detailing my qualifications has given my customers more confidence than a logo painted on a van. I have heard a lot of "cowboy" stories about NICEIC members.

My card costs me a few pounds every 3 years. What does NICEIC charge for membership, their interpretation of the Regs, site assessments etc? and on the subject of the Mickey Mouse Level 2 domestic installer certificate, NICEIC along with some other accreditation companies actually endorses these plonkers. You only get a gold JIb card with "Accredited Electrician" on it when you provide proof of Training , Experience and Qualifications.

They may not police the industry any more than Corgi does for plumbers but at least they set the standard for competence, Training , Experience and Qualifications.

 

[kung]

The way i see it is the only policing out there is us and that is on our own work no card,cert,qual etc guarantee every install we do is safe and good quality the only thing that changes things is if we can sleep at night knowing the possibility that some poor sod might die or be injured or have their property destroyed etc if our work is crap. The fact that a domestic installer and quallified spark has done what they have to get to that grading gives them less chance of being a dodgy trader from hell ! that said theres good and bad in all ! i have seen some real crap from a domestic installer and some from a fully quallified time served spark as in truth we all have ! having said that ive worked with some very good domestic installers as well as sparks ! consider this possibility alzheimer's ! if your working and get this even in a mild form how will you know ? who will know ? how safe is your work ? how much work will you do that could be unsafe before its found out if at all ? will you be prossicuted in court if its proven you suffer from this even if someone dies ? how many jobs from one assessment do you do till another ? now consider this bipoler ! etc etc only we can tell or can we ? onece you have your quals thats it ! your qualified ! think about all what youve done that youve done thousands of times before year in year out will the phone go later giving you bad news ? or will you fail your next assessment while trying to do a Ze with a coat hanger ? I do support this licence scheme but although it will help will like all the others protect the public from this possibility ? Im now off the mow the carpet and hover the lawn so be on this phone later !

 

[acvc]

1. This License propsal is based on the assumtion that:

"The present system has had quite a few years and is showing its utter failure to achieve any of its aims", as stated by Des.

Where's the evidience for this? To make such a change as this you need clear cut numbers of dangerous jobs in proportion to non dangerous jobs done. All that you have to go on is anecdote and hearsay and few examples you've come across yourselves Lec et al. Show me some figures and I would be more sympathetic to the proposal.

2. The propsoal would have the effect of reinforcing the old chestnut of "can't get any experience because you don't have any experience to start with", i.e. closed shop and jobs for the boys. and really hard to get a start anywhere. This raises the question of what exactly is the motivation behind this proposal: driving down the pay for less experienced people/driving up the pay for more experienced people, or safety? If it's safety, then we already have established organisations and safety could/should be more rigourously enforced within this existing framework.

3. We now live in an era where a job for life doesn't exist any more. We're constantly being told to be flexible, to be prepared to retrain, to move about for work. But the economy/society doesn't make it easy to retrain if you're over twenty-five or so, or are well-off enough to take three or four years out of work to go to college - and hardly anyone can afford that. So there is a reason for the short courses. I do fully accept that this is not an argument about safety but about training and affordability, but it's got some relevance here.

No need for this.

 

[elektrisien]

1. This License propsal is based on the assumtion that:

"The present system has had quite a few years and is showing its utter failure to achieve any of its aims", as stated by Des.

Where's the evidience for this? To make such a change as this you need clear cut numbers of dangerous jobs in proportion to non dangerous jobs done. All that you have to go on is anecdote and hearsay and few examples you've come across yourselves Lec et al. Show me some figures and I would be more sympathetic to the proposal.

2. The propsoal would have the effect of reinforcing the old chestnut of "can't get any experience because you don't have any experience to start with", i.e. closed shop and jobs for the boys. and really hard to get a start anywhere. This raises the question of what exactly is the motivation behind this proposal: driving down the pay for less experienced people/driving up the pay for more experienced people, or safety? If it's safety, then we already have established organisations and safety could/should be more rigourously enforced within this existing framework.

3. We now live in an era where a job for life doesn't exist any more. We're constantly being told to be flexible, to be prepared to retrain, to move about for work. But the economy/society doesn't make it easy to retrain if you're over twenty-five or so, or are well-off enough to take three or four years out of work to go to college - and hardly anyone can afford that. So there is a reason for the short courses. I do fully accept that this is not an argument about safety but about training and affordability, but it's got some relevance here.

No need for this.

I could not agree more. That is brilliant, especially point 2 and 3.

 

[robsparky1975]

All good points, I will always agree that you cant be an electrican with four weeks training. Can I lay a popular misconception to rest. The short courses do not train you to become an electrician. Yes there is training involved, however, the best way perhaps of describing these courses is to say its four weeks of exams, preceeded by months of study.
However, I wish to make a very strong point to you. I was a Police Officer for 20 years. Lets take one particular issue- Drugs. We raided, we arrested, we sent to prison. We kept a lid on the local drugs scene, but do people still use drugs? yes. So do you want to form an entirely different body to deal with the problem ? I can tell you this, it is not possible to deal with it anymore effectively than it is being dealt with. Same as electrical installations. How are you going to prosecute someone you dont even know exists, or where they have worked? yes I agree their work is sat there waiting to possibly kill someone.
Our worst threat is the DIY person who has performed. We see it all the time. Our Target as Rocker says, must be those doing dodgy electrics for money-you have probably seen them, no sign writing on the van, only a mobile number in the paper etc.
I think you will find that if you find them, and report, your governing body will act. If we have issues with the governing bodies, then it is them we should lobby. They will listen to us as we pay them.
Look through this forum and you will see no negative comments about the schemes, just moaning about their fees. Natural. If there was such a lack of confidence in them, then this forum would be red hot with complaints.I think that a possible best course of action would be to establish from each scheme what their policy is on receiving a rogue trader report.
We are chasing one such person locally, as he is bad. Few others that do a bit etc, have been given details of training courses etc, and have taken the hint.

its not the bloke who wires an extensoin lead off a socket is it jason,and says whats wrong with that,i wanted to tell him that doing 3 years of evening college while holding down a full time job and getting home at 10pm,doing exam after exam.2360 pt1 & 2,16th/17th edition ,2391,etc and cheeky git asks me whats wrong,the clients need to be more aware through national press,just like gas safe,they would not let anyone not qualified do gas so why should electrics not be shown as much,in my view more dangerous,i saw a place the other day where tenant had used old kinder egg shell to put choc block for outside light,not ip66 lol

 

[UNG]

I the think' time served' and apprenticeships is something from the previous century.

You are correct the "proper" apprentice scheme ended in 1984 since then it has been hacked around for no good reason

An electrician is first and foremost an electrical engineer. To be an engineer you need to go to college and study science, maths etc.

I don't know any electricians with a degree which I think is a requirement to be an engineer

It does not take 4 years to learn how to bend conduit. Another thing, installation methods, tegnology etc are changing so quickly that somebody who did an apprenticeship 40years ago, I mean, it means nothing to me. I used to think an electrician is somebody like a tradesman, but they are not, they are much more.

As a spark who served a five year apprenticeship across all the domestic, commercial and industrial sectors with 5 years at college on day release and subsquently did various evening, distance learning and job related courses I have expanded my knowledge far beyond that of most electricians to be told that this counts for nothing I take as an insult

I think you will find generally that installation methods have not changed that much only the materials used

A good electrician is a multi skilled tradesman with an ability to install alot of the modern technology

Eduacation should be much more important and experience less so. If you completed your studies as a doctor, you are a doctor. You dont have to have 4 years hospital experience and do an apprenticeship.

If education is so important why do you not include on the job training as education
I think you will find a doctor has to go "on the tools" for a few years after studying to become qualified

Going to college is hard and diffecult. Not everybody can do it. But times are changing. Quite a few older electricians feel threatened by the new breed of electrician that focus more on academic eduacation rather than practical experience. But the electrical industry is changing, what was good 40 years ago, does not cut it anymore.

College is only as hard and difficult as you want to make it. As an older electrician I do not feel threatened by the new breed of electrician as I read this forum and where would the new breed be without this new technology not sure they could make that important decision on their own without being able to ask a question on here


Overall I think your attack on time served sparks is an insult to those who are

 

[alexg]

The facts are simple.
There are rubbish electricians and great electricians. The difference ?
The latter care and take pride. They understand word of mouth too.
Just Part P or time served ... Not the point onviously. What we do is not hard if you've got basic common sense and a good mind. Jealousy gets nowhere.
I'm tune served by the way. Not proud of it. Proud of my cate and service though. That's harder to do.