Campaign for an electrician's licence scheme...Please Read...

[Lec]

Phil7677, you are 100% spot on.
Just cause it's a bit difficult, we drop the standards to accomodate a less able student. WRONG!
The trouble with many people is they want it and they want it now, so time and experience get abandoned in favour of quick satisfaction.
The realy sad thing is that we stand by and let it happen.
There have been many posts trying to claim that experience is not important. Hopefully those people will live long enough to learn the truth.

I'm finding this debate increadably interesting. From the psots you can tell the younge or inexperienced, the ex-apprentices and the qucik course boys, the employed and the employers.
You can also tell the domestic electricians from the folks that do it all.
There is nothing wrong with any of you, you do what you do and good on you.

The thing I can't work out is what are so many of you so scared of.
There are so many negative comments, against some thing that is trying to improve your trade.
Are you worried that you could not meet the standards required to get a licence.
Are you worried your approval body might slap your rist if you signed the campaign.
Are you worried that you might have to spend a little bit of money, even though the return on that investment will be hugh.
It's wakey wakey time everyone.
Think of the wider picture, not just domestic work.
Licensing = less cowboys = more work for real electrians (at all levels) = happy people
No licence = No improvement = Continued decline in standards
The real facts of life are that the NICEIC, ECA or any of the other Part P approval bodies, will never be able to police the trade properly, because they will never have powers to prosecute rogue electrians.
But they will continue to take your money to ever increase their business empires.
As I have said before, they do many excellent things, but they have proven themselves unable to effectivly police the industry.
Join the campaign and have a voice in setting up the licensing scheme, or just sit back and keep thinking up reasons to accept what you get given if it makes you happy.
But don't start complaining when the license is introduced and you didn't get to have your view taken into account.
L-E-C.org.uk - The Licensed Electricians Campaign where the electrical industry can be changed for the good of all electricians.

Now if that doesn't stir things up a little, nothing will

 

[RexT]

Hi Lec,

Sounds good and hopefully something will be done to improve the situation for the guys who do follow the rules and get qualified / trained / sufficient experience etc.

I think we all tend to see things from our own perspective and I guess we all want a level playing field, if that makes any sense. I must admit I am fed up with hearing how the decent guys get cut up out of jobs etc.

Keep up the good work,

Rex

 

[elektrisien]

I dont think this campaign will accomplish anything except tp provide more hassles for the real electricians. We already have soo many governing bodies, what about the JIB and the ESC cards ? This is madness. From the posts its clear that you have little support. People want less complication not more. You will not stop cowboy electricians with this card, because they dont need one, and dont want it. The customer will always try and pay the cheapest price. They generally dont care if you have a card or not. If a mate of a mate, can do the job on the cheap they will take that.
Like I said , I think the JIB already fill the gap, if you need a card to show you are qualified. The fact that the JIB are losing members and cannot survive on their own any more, should maybe give you food for thought.

 

[elektrisien]

If part P, the Building regs, Elecsa, Niceic, your local council,the JIB, the ESC and what more cannot police the industry, what makes you think an electricians register can ???

 

[Mark_Burgess]

If part P, the Building regs, Elecsa, Niceic, your local council,the JIB, the ESC and what more cannot police the industry, what makes you think an electricians register can ???

Elektrisien you beat me to it !!!

What would give this new scheme, sorry licence, any more powers to prosecute than the current systems?

What about backed up insurance/guarantees that are currently provided by scheme providers, will that be included?

 

[RexT]

Hi Elektrisien,

I was told recently that the part P building regs was due for review and possible removal. Dont know how true that is but why this is important is that the rules seem to keep changing and for what you say we should have a working system now.

I agree that it is wrong to give the good guys hassle and I would like to see some active reports / policing of the 'cowboys' being brought to book by the powers that be.

Interesting stuff though.

Rex

 

[Graeme Harrold]

I have said this many times before, the only way for the industry to be policed effectively is to:

a. Educate the public through a series of well placed advertising highlighting the need for registered sparks to do the work

b. Campaign for the likes of insurance companies to start taking more interest in the risk (property) they are covering by asking for copies of certs on a regular basis.

c. Get a PIR included in the HIP, think this was a little nieve leaving this out when a poxy efficience survey has to be done.

d. Know this is the best way to ensure the work is done effectively and SAFELY.

Once the customers start to feel they are taking financial risks by using cowboys i.e. loosing insurance cover, or not being able to sell their home then things will improve. You will only marginalise cowboy trades as where there is money to be made the cowboy will always be there.

In order to get the bodies to actually start supporting the industry the only way is to hit them financially. e.g. get as many people to switch to ELECSA this year, then go to NAPIT next year just to demonstrate what disgruntaled power can do................

 

[Lec]

If part P, the Building regs, Elecsa, Niceic, your local council,the JIB, the ESC and what more cannot police the industry, what makes you think an electricians register can ???

If you want to know the answer, try reading my web site and visit the links that will take you to other sites that will also answer the questions.
1 - It's a License to Practice (no license, no job)
2 - It's a License to Trade (no license, not work)
The scheme will need to have the backing of legislation, so that it can be enforced effectively. It will need to be able to prosecute non license holders that carry out electrical work illegally.

Part P has legislation to give it teeth, but relies on Building Control to police it and they have no resource, so action is sporadic.
NICEIC, Elecsa etc etc have no powers to act and in the main do not act when complaints are made. They value your annual fees above anything. Don’t kill the goose that lays the golden egg.
ESC are an advisory body, they have no interest in actual enforcement
JIB is the ECA, they issue a card that states your qualifications etc, it has nothing to do with enforcement
So out of all of these, it come down to Part P and Building Control.
What about the rest of the industry?, commercial, industrial, agriculture etc.
I assume from your posts that you are a one man business focused on the domestic market ?
I’m sorry but your augments demonstrate a serious lack of knowledge of our industry and the various bodies associated with it. (Your technical knowledge is not being questioned)
Take a look at the ECA and you will see, they actually own or control many things that you probably think are independent.
The ESC is ECA & NICEIC controlled.
Did you know that the ECA help fund Unite the Union.
Someone earlier stated that the NICEIC were a charity, which is no longer true.
Can we all do some home work and get our facts right before posting inaccurate information.
They say ignorance is bliss

 

[Graeme Harrold]

Gas Safe = Licence to work

Just watch Rogue Traders..................

My ELECSA card = Licence to work on Domestic properties, the card means nothing to an uneducated public, so yet another card will not make a single difference except burden those in the trade. I did sign your petition, but having spent time in Canada, its not the card you need, its the whole culture of work illegally and you will be prosecuted (not just a slap on the wrist)

 

[Mark_Burgess]

I don't think the NIC, Elecsa, Napit etc will roll over and let this happen.

I am up for getting the cowboys out of the industry but not sure this licence will make any difference to what is currently in place.

last time I bought a TV I had to give my name and address at time of purchase, a few weeks later TV license guys wrote to me saying I did not have a license, was okay when I proved it was in the Mrs name.

The same principal should be applied for electrical goods like showers, consumer units, reels of cable etc, if you cannot show proof that you are an electrician with the currently available JIB ECS card, NIC, Elecsa ID or company ID etc, then name and address of the purchaser should be given. Building control could have an automated letter sent requesting notification me made or proof of a registered electrician shall be carrying out the work.

 

[Lec]

Mark

If you have to have a license to practice and one to trade, the public will not have a need to buy the goods and the market will slowly die.
It will take time, but any head on move to outlaw the sale of electrical goods to the public will immediately blow this out of the water.
It can be done if we take the correct approach.
If we go at it like a bull in a china shop, then yes it will fail.
We have to be smart about this!
The bodies with any real power are the ECA and NICEIC.
If they take time to think about this, they will still have a huge role to play in the industry, so it actually won’t cause them to much pain.
Anyway, since when should the trade worry what they think, are they not there to represent us, not make decisions for us.

 

[Lec]

Gas Safe = Licence to work

Just watch Rogue Traders..................

My ELECSA card = Licence to work on Domestic properties, the card means nothing to an uneducated public, so yet another card will not make a single difference except burden those in the trade. I did sign your petition, but having spent time in Canada, its not the card you need, its the whole culture of work illegally and you will be prosecuted (not just a slap on the wrist)

Thanks for your support Graeme, You are correct, the license scheme must have the powers to act in an effective way. It will need to be publicised so that the general public know that it is the only card that must be shown. The current confusion is due to the many different approval bodies and badges, so that is why they need to go and be replaced by one.
The culture will change if prosecutions take place.

 

[aptsys]

If you have to have a license to practice and one to trade, the public will not have a need to buy the goods and the market will slowly die.

Are you saying "DIY" work by homeowners would no longer be allowed by this scheme?

 

[Lec]

I would think the rules as per Part P would apply for domestic work, but would actualy be enforced.
As regard being able to buy products that would enable a DIYer to infringe the rules, well you can work that one out for yourself.
Go to L-E-C.org.uk - The Licensed Electricians Campaign, read it and read the links to other non-uk licensing scheme sites, it's all there.

 

[aptsys]

As regard being able to buy products that would enable a DIYer to infringe the rules, well you can work that one out for yourself.

Well there's no way you'd be able to stop unregistered people buying electrical accessories.

 

[jcarlie]

I agree with the opinion that part p is failing miserably.The problem i think is that the industry is not policed at all.Generally members of the public know that to work on gas you have to be Corgi registered or gas safe as it is now,the majority also know what the consequences are if someone works on your gas that isnt registered.Here is where part p fails,the majority dont have a clue that yor property should be tested every 10 years or every time there is a change in occupancy,on this point it should be made compulsary that properties are tested and inspected before you can even put it on the market. They dont have a clue that every job that is carried out,no matter how trivial,needs testing and certifying.The general public need educating and some form of statutory legislation covering the industry needs putting in place,if that means a licence then im all for it,if that means a total re-hash of part p then im all for that as well because for one thing,part p isnt working like it is supposed to do.The DIY horrors i have seen in the past is unbelievable and not just in domestic properties but commercial as well.The literature needs to change from it being acceptable for a "competent" person to work on electricity to "Qualified,registered Electrician" is the only person allowed to carry out any electrical work whatsoever.Just my opinion.When properties are tested why not supply a drawing thats is signed and dated,the next time it is inspected and tested anything that has been installed that is not on the original drawing will need certificates to show they was installed by a Registered electrician,you would only need to make the drawing out once,or even provide a drawing everytime a propert is rewired.I know that commercial and industrial have these drawings usually but domestic properties dont and that is where the biggest problems with cowboys lie.

 

[elektrisien]

If you want to know the answer, try reading my web site and visit the links that will take you to other sites that will also answer the questions.
1 - It's a License to Practice (no license, no job)
2 - It's a License to Trade (no license, not work)
The scheme will need to have the backing of legislation, so that it can be enforced effectively. It will need to be able to prosecute non license holders that carry out electrical work illegally.

Part P has legislation to give it teeth, but relies on Building Control to police it and they have no resource, so action is sporadic.
NICEIC, Elecsa etc etc have no powers to act and in the main do not act when complaints are made. They value your annual fees above anything. Don’t kill the goose that lays the golden egg.
ESC are an advisory body, they have no interest in actual enforcement
JIB is the ECA, they issue a card that states your qualifications etc, it has nothing to do with enforcement
So out of all of these, it come down to Part P and Building Control.
What about the rest of the industry?, commercial, industrial, agriculture etc.
I assume from your posts that you are a one man business focused on the domestic market ?
I’m sorry but your augments demonstrate a serious lack of knowledge of our industry and the various bodies associated with it. (Your technical knowledge is not being questioned)
Take a look at the ECA and you will see, they actually own or control many things that you probably think are independent.
The ESC is ECA & NICEIC controlled.
Did you know that the ECA help fund Unite the Union.
Someone earlier stated that the NICEIC were a charity, which is no longer true.
Can we all do some home work and get our facts right before posting inaccurate information.
They say ignorance is bliss

Thanks for your extensive reply, I appreciate it.
But like the other posts say, for it to work, you will have to set up the infrastructure to police it.
Secondly, and probably the most diffecult , you will have to educate the public.
Unfortunetly, I am not a qulified electrician with my own business, if only.
But I am an adult trainee, who did evening classes for 3 years at a normal college. I know how diffecult it is, even now to get in the industry, who is going to give me an opportunity for instance to do my NVQ3 ?
If you create even more barriers to entry, how are guys like me going to get in ??
Tell me how your register will benefit me, and I will support you.

 

[Lec]

Elektrisian, you asked, so here we go.
Both of your first points are key parts of introducing a licensing scheme and would be part of the process of setting the scheme up. It would not work without them.
Re your personal situation.
I have employed and paid for the training of an adult trainee, with no funding from JTL or any other training organisation, so I am familiar with your plight.
There was some funding available from JTL for employers wanting to train adults, I don’t know if it is still available or if you would qualify. I suggest you contact the local JTL guy through your local JTL approved training centre. You could also try Summit Skills. If you get stuck, I will try to help.
There are always employers that are willing to employ & train capable people, if they show practical ability, enthusiasm and technical understanding of the trade. Employers want funding to help them train adults, you have a number of advantages over school leavers, one being maturity and a understanding of what the real world is about.
How would the licence help people like you?
It would get rid of the cowboys across all sectors, Domestic, Industrial, Commercials etc. This would increase demand for the real electricians as they would be the only ones trading under a license. This would increase the need for training of electricians to fill the skills gap and would inevitably lead to the availability of funding to train adults as well as school leavers. Greater demand for qualified electricians means greater opportunity of finding employment for people like you that need experience for the NVQ. By the way NVQs are being replaced with QCFs, but that’s another storey. Employers would also be able to charge fair rates, as there would be less people selling themselves for stupid prices, this would also enable employers to pay towards training their electricians of the future.
Yes there are and always will be employers that abuse trainees and use them as cheap labour, but you don’t have to work for them. If people refuse to work for the sharks, they will eventually go out of business or change their ways.
Stop being negative, it grinds you down and people pick up on it. Be positive about yourself and the future of the trade and opportunities will come along. It’s for you to recognise them and grab them. Why not start by helping us change the trade for the good. www.l-e-c.org.uk

 

[aptsys]

Sounds very idealistic and not very realistic to me. If people who want to pay cheap for electrical work can't get it done cheap, they're more likely to either leave it, get a mate to do it or have a go themselves.

 

[Lec]

If the world was full of people with that attitude, women would not be able to vote, kids would still be working in coal mines, apartheid would still exist in South Africa, we would never have gone into space, we would still think the world was flat, the list goes on and on.