Can my firm take my rate off me? (JIB related)

[Davey101]

My firm is JIB registered, and employs me as an approved electrician. I also get 40p over the rate (whoopee!)

Due to hard economic times (and also the fact that they dont really want to employ any of us any longer, prefering to use subbies), they seem to be making some cutbacks.

I, and at least one other spark, received a letter this morning, informing me that they will be taking this 40p off us. I've been with them since school, so the rate has been given to me, rather than it being the rate that I agreed on when I joined them.

FYI, the rate was given to us for responsibilty, because we ran jobs, and were deemed a little more capable than some others (a lot of the other lads are younger and less experienced, not because I think I'm great).
I am, or rather was, refered to as a 'senior approved electrician', a term our firm used.

I am now mostly just a site spark, although for the last 2 or 3 jobs I have been the main tester, or have been involved with testing to some extent.

My question is- although the rate was just given to me, and wont be in my contract, can they just take it off me whenever they want?

Do sparks generally get paid more for testing ( the jobs are largish), as most people I speak to assume I'm on a higher rate for testing.

Cheers, Dave.

 

[lloyd1980]

leave industrial and come and house bash in chester
or work for yourself and dictate your own rates!

 

[Sintra]

I would say if the extra 40p was just given to you and is not a contracted rate then it can be taken off you just as easily.
As for extra money for testing that would again be up to the employer. Ask to keep the 40p as you are testing for them.

 

[lloyd1980]

another way to look at it is that as a jib co they are only obliged to pay you the jib rate
I was an approved 2391 jib spark before i went into house bashing and then self employment

try and reason with them mate

 

[oldtimer]

Yes they can take your 40p off you I 30 years ago got 10p "over the rate" as I also ran and managed jobs on my own. You may feel a bit let down as you have probably given good service for all the time you have been there thinking there is a bit of mutual trust here but sorry to say there is no such thing. a guy at the Inspection and Testing course told me that after giving 12 years good service working away from home etc he was told that if he did not get his H&S + I&T then he would be unemployable when he asked for time off and help to pay for the courses and accomidation he was told no chance thats your problem.
So take a professional aprouch learn more aspecys of your job so that you are not held to ransom as a one trick pony so when you do get messed about vote with your feet and be gracious when you leave the only person that will look out for you is you.

 

[Risteard]

If they have been giving you 40p extra, then even if there was never a written contract which stated this it would be deemed an implied contract. As such it would be unlawful for them to unilaterally alter it, and you should seek legal advice. Contact Unite (Amicus section) obviously if you haven't already.

 

[Davey101]

Yes they can take your 40p off you I 30 years ago got 10p "over the rate" as I also ran and managed jobs on my own. You may feel a bit let down as you have probably given good service for all the time you have been there thinking there is a bit of mutual trust here but sorry to say there is no such thing. a guy at the Inspection and Testing course told me that after giving 12 years good service working away from home etc he was told that if he did not get his H&S + I&T then he would be unemployable when he asked for time off and help to pay for the courses and accomidation he was told no chance thats your problem.
So take a professional aprouch learn more aspecys of your job so that you are not held to ransom as a one trick pony so when you do get messed about vote with your feet and be gracious when you leave the only person that will look out for you is you.

Thanks for that, pretty much assumed that they could take it off me. Think I may phone the JIB on monday, just to check. Would have been nice to get a phone call, or perhaps my branch manager, who I walked past in the corridor 2 days ago could have told me.

If I remember correctly, all of our sparks used to get 10p over as well, I guess this was a common thing, to encourage a bit of loyalty? They stopped doing it some time ago I think.

 

[wattsup]

The extra rate is a jib con, they will always use cons when it suits. The jib are a protection racket, when they are short of sparks the will 'make up mates' when they have too many sparks they will lose em. The jib is a protection racket formed by michael corleone...the jib have no electrical knowledge whatsoever. They have no legal authority whatsoever except on the waterfront

btw I know for a fact a mate can be a spark, if you are working for a jib company. He will be made up, if he is a strike breaker, will work daft hours, and has worked for the said company 2-years or more. But to be completely honest some deserve to be....however the jib methods of deciding is corrupt

 

[Davey101]

If they have been giving you 40p extra, then even if there was never a written contract which stated this it would be deemed an implied contract. As such it would be unlawful for them to unilaterally alter it, and you should seek legal advice. Contact Unite (Amicus section) obviously if you haven't already.

Thats interesting. I have been told before that they cant just take your rate from you, but presumed that it was just bravado from those saying it.

Will be in contact with the JIB on monday. The 'implied contract' thing is, I guess where it all hinges.
FYI, I was going to leave them a couple of years ago (I didnt for various reasons). The firm I was going to join was going to match my rate, I wonder if this will have a bearing?

 

[uksel]

they are only obligated to honour the JIB rates

if you are a member of a union and feel you want to take it further they are the ones to get in touch with

though in hard times (economically) it's not always easy to get another job if they find a reason to fire a troublemaker

though i agree with you, the above will be their take on it. so how hard a knock is the 40p an hour? £16 a week on a flat 40

 

[Risteard]

Thats interesting. I have been told before that they cant just take your rate from you, but presumed that it was just bravado from those saying it.

Will be in contact with the JIB on monday. The 'implied contract' thing is, I guess where it all hinges.
FYI, I was going to leave them a couple of years ago (I didnt for various reasons). The firm I was going to join was going to match my rate, I wonder if this will have a bearing?

Can't say definitively, but as I say seek Union/legal advice without delay.

 

[Davey101]

they are only obligated to honour the JIB rates

if you are a member of a union and feel you want to take it further they are the ones to get in touch with

though in hard times (economically) it's not always easy to get another job if they find a reason to fire a troublemaker

though i agree with you, the above will be their take on it. so how hard a knock is the 40p an hour? £16 a week on a flat 40

I would take it as a matter of principle to be honest. The firm isnt treating the blokes particulary well, so I'd defo object, if I was in the right.

 

[uksel]

yeah i 100% agree with him, i've had to chase money off clients/employers in the past and they have made it more than difficult, it's a right pain in the ****

but it's not people with morals control the money, it's the fookers without em, that always end up holding the cash. and to these people, you are 'just a number'

 

[ian.settle1]

Go to link below and download the JIB handbook

JIB Electronic Handbook

JIB will say it is between you and your employer probabily when you phone them.

they are only obligated to honour the JIB rates

if you are a member of a union and feel you want to take it further they are the ones to get in touch with

though in hard times (economically) it's not always easy to get another job if they find a reason to fire a troublemaker

though i agree with you, the above will be their take on it. so how hard a knock is the 40p an hour? £16 a week on a flat 40

If they work to JIB rules then it should only be a 37 hour week not 40 with any hours above this paid as overtime

 

[85mick85]

we are a jib firm and we hada take a 12.5% cut in wages after christmas???

 

[uksel]

Go to link below and download the JIB handbook

JIB Electronic Handbook

JIB will say it is between you and your employer probabily when you phone them.




If they work to JIB rules then it should only be a 37 hour week not 40 with any hours above this paid as overtime

37.5 isn't it??

a lot of workers are having to bite the bullet through the recession, cut in hours, cut in pay - but if it's enforced to save jobs what can be said??

 

[oldtimer]

I agree it could be a lot of agro for £16 bucks extra on a flat week and yes it is the principle of the thing but principles is a thing these people do not have although this can be traced back to 22 years ago when the European employment act came into force and Maggie "opted out" with Blair promising that he would protect us then said hold on we need to be competitive. A bit like seeing your work mates go out on strike then you stay put shouting suckers as they walk out the door.
Sadly this is the state this so called Mother of Democrocy of a country we live in so take a bit advice from someone who has had a kicking for his priciples learn to practice passive resistance what ? you say well ok tell you boss that your disapointed and at the same time when you see the opertunity to help them save a bit of cash then give it a bit of silence you will soon get your money back as they see their profits drop and the end of the year. Sad I know we sparks are trained to have principles and as the yanks say "stick to the code" so chin up and remember when these people who run these companies retire they wil find that they are "just pensioners" like everybody else.

 

[Davey101]

I agree it could be a lot of agro for £16 bucks extra on a flat week and yes it is the principle of the thing but principles is a thing these people do not have although this can be traced back to 22 years ago when the European employment act came into force and Maggie "opted out" with Blair promising that he would protect us then said hold on we need to be competitive. A bit like seeing your work mates go out on strike then you stay put shouting suckers as they walk out the door.
Sadly this is the state this so called Mother of Democrocy of a country we live in so take a bit advice from someone who has had a kicking for his priciples learn to practice passive resistance what ? you say well ok tell you boss that your disapointed and at the same time when you see the opertunity to help them save a bit of cash then give it a bit of silence you will soon get your money back as they see their profits drop and the end of the year. Sad I know we sparks are trained to have principles and as the yanks say "stick to the code" so chin up and remember when these people who run these companies retire they wil find that they are "just pensioners" like everybody else.

The owners of our frim are some sort of Arabian conglomerate(sp). Dont think they will be too worried if I dont save them a few quid here or there.

37.5 hours at the mo, with 0.5 hour at time and a half

Like I said, if I have a case, I will be taking it up with them. Although I dont think I will win any brownie points by complaining, I doubt I will get laid off because of it, a few of us would welcome it anyway.

 

[Risteard]

I doubt I will get laid off because of it, a few of us would welcome it anyway.

You can't - that would be illegal.

 

[fillitup]

Firm I worked for paid off approved sparks most with over 20 years service and kept sparks most with less than 4 years service because they are cheaper.At the moment I dont know anyone that is getting the proper rate from JIB firms, all the firms round here are getting rid of men on the cards and using subbies instead. From past experience the unite union was of no use at all.

 

[bugsy]

This is going to happen a lot , Firstly check you contract of employement regarding rates, secondly why were you paid the additional 40p , if it was for additional resposibilty do you still have this responsabilty ,
As you say this a cost cutting exercise , are the subbies anygood ( not being rude )

 

[Davey101]

The rate was for 'responsibilty', being a little more experienced than some other Sparks on our firm and running jobs. I'm not the only one above the rate, and there are some on a higher rate than me, with the foremen obviously being higher again.
Arriving on site on monday morning, I found out that they have taken everyones rate off them. We have a 'mate' who does work above his grade, basicaly he is more like an improver. They have knocked him down to labourers rate.
I used to be on our 'small works' department, basically any job upto £250,000. Small works has closed down, so I'm on site now, doing general works (I was also chargehand on a job last year).
In effect, I dont have any more responsibilty than any other spark now, and this is the reason stated in the letter for taking my rate away.

I would presume that if my post no longer exists, then they should lay me off, or give me the option of doing a lower paid job, rather than take my rate away without even consulting me?

Phoned the JIB, and they were'nt very helpfull, simply stating that they would only recognise me as an approved electrician.

The subbies are all pretty good TBH, probably better than me

 

[bugsy]

As I said there cost cutting , Looking at from the companies veiw point there have proberbly done the right thing (sorry ) if it's going to save job's in the long term .
Hopefully they hav'nt been buying job's for the short term and run out steam.

 

[oldtimer]

Davy
In this current climate better to lose 50p than the whole JIB rate ie visit to the jobcentre on Monday.

Dont get me wrong I am not saying roll over and die for them but if they are losing work then ok you can deal with it but if it is just an excuse to cut the money then pay you as a approved spark then thats what they get

 

[Davey101]

Agree about cost cutting, and saving jobs. TBH though, we really dont think its about that. They have laid people off, and taken them back on 2 weeks later as Subbies.
They've also cut us all down to a 38 hour week, and then employed at least as many subbies as blokes on the books (nothing against subbies by the way).
There are loads of things I wont bore you with.

The question wasn't 'should they cut my rate', simply 'can they'.

Cheers, Dave.

They only get an approved spark now, nothing more

Edit-I hope my tone doesn't come across as though I think I'm something special-I'm not. Like I said, there are plenty of blokes on more than me. A bit of recognition, and encouragment would be nice though.

 

[fillitup]

Im not working for a JIB firm at moment, but from what I have been hearing the JIB have left it up to the firms to decicde what rates to pay, several firms I know of lowered the rate last year and didnt give a rise this year.Its basically take it or get made redundant.