Change in the Law regarding RCDs in Rental Properties

[oldtimer]

Yep its all about timing RCDs were only quoted when they became cheap to manufacture but right now you have the regulators trying to justify their jobs and the law makers trying to rip up regulation interesting times indeed

 

[Spazz]

I understand what you are saying, but living in a mainly "retired" area I see many, many old peoples' houses with old and sometimes dangerous electrics. I often advise work to make the places safer, but many elderly either can't afford it or just won't part with their cash. If there is going to be a law, it should apply to all installations. I'm sure that if the figures were broken down further, it wouldn't be rental properties which were any more responsible for injury or loss of life.

For everyone's information there are grants available through most councils for electrical work - called small works grants/minor works grants
This gives a one off grant for over 65s to get work done on their homes, there are conditions but most over 65s do fall into the criteria.

The biggest part of the criteria with regards to electrical work is the existing installation must not be safe (could be no RCD or no bonding), or the work will make the property alot safer than it currently is.


But saying this - I a still having old aged ladies turning down free CU changes (from solid fuses - no RCD or bonding) because their daughter says they dont need it because its been fine as it is for the last 60 years.

BIG HINT 60 years - it needs checking at least!!



I have looked and still looking for statistics for rental property deaths but cant find any.


Just to clear this up as it keeps coming up - this would only apply to rental properties as with owned homes, this cant be reinforced - it is currently recommended but that is down to us to push how important it is to have RCDs in place.

 

[Spazz]

I have just seen this several times on the ESC website and their documents:

"Landlords of a House in Multiple Occupation (HMO), have a legal obligation to have a periodic inspection carried out on the HMO property every 5 years."
​

in The Management of Houses in Multiple Occupation (England) Regulations 2006

It would be interesting to see what the response is from these landlords if we told them this!

I already know the response - its not law! - it clearly is!!




And also in The Management of Houses in Multiple Occupation (Wales) Regulations 2006
[h=2]Duty of manager to supply and maintain gas and electricity[/h]6.—(1) The manager must supply to the local housing authority within 7 days of receiving a request in writing from that authority the latest gas appliance test certificate which the manager has received in relation to the testing of any gas appliance at the HMO by a recognised engineer.(2) In paragraph (1), “recognised engineer” (“peiriannydd cydnabyddedig”) means an engineer recognised by the Council of Registered Gas Installers as being competent to undertake such testing.(3) The manager must—

(a)​

ensure that every fixed electrical installation is inspected and tested at intervals not exceeding five years by a person qualified to undertake such inspection and testing;

(b)​

obtain a certificate from the person conducting that test, specifying the results of the test; and

(c)​

supply that certificate to the local housing authority within 7 days of receiving a request in writing for it from that authority.
(4) The manager must not unreasonably cause the gas or electricity supply that is used by any occupier within the HMO to be interrupted. ​

 

[jase]

Why - how long does it take to change a main switch for an RCD? not long!

what about reg 314?

 

[Spazz]

what about reg 314?

What about it:

314.1 - Every installation shell be divided into circuits, as necessarily,


All CUs which are compatible for RCDs to be fitted are divided into circuits - yet to find one which aint!
This regulation is on about circuits not split load with RCDs.

Also check out the EIC - there is a section on there for when Main Switches are RCDs.

 

[spark 68]

Nicholas,

Jase is correct, even dual split RCD boards don't fully comply to the 17th ed, and this was a misnomer from the start on cost grounds, ie, the so-called 17th ed CU.

The only way to fully comply is to have seperate RCBO's for each final circuit.

see 314.2

I have already brought this to your attention once further back in this thread, it would help your cause considerably if you knew the regs you were advocating.

 

[Spazz]

as said in another thread the regulations are not retrospective.

 

[spark 68]

as said in another thread the regulations are not retrospective.​

True, until you start altering circuits and protection etc., your alterations have to comply with the current regs.

 

[Spazz]

Nicholas,

Jase is correct, even dual split RCD boards don't fully comply to the 17th ed, and this was a misnomer from the start on cost grounds, ie, the so-called 17th ed CU.

The only way to fully comply is to have seperate RCBO's for each final circuit.

see 314.2

I have already brought this to your attention once further back in this thread, it would help your cause considerably if you knew the regs you were advocating.

In regards to 314.2 - this can be read in so many different ways - It mentions about those circuits are not effected by the failure of of other circuits, an RCD is fault protection.

This is the problem with the regs there are so many different ways to read it - 314 (in general) is talking about MCBs and fuses (as far as the ESC are concerned), plus why would they make a 17th Ed board which does not comply - they wouldn't!

I do see your point thought!

 

[Spazz]

This is also why when installing a split board you install up lights on same RCD as bottom ring and bottom lights on same RCD as top ring.

 

[spark 68]

314.2 seperate circuits shall be provided for parts of the installation which need to be seperately controlled, in such a way that those circuits are not affected by the failure of other circuits...


It does not mention OCPD anywhere in that reg, only protection devices.
This is BS7671, the ESC don't write the regs.

Iam not trying to nit pick, but you are talking about legislation, and this needs to be properly thought out and water tight.

 

[Geoffsd]

Just to point out that a 'House of Multiple Occupancy' is, for example, one property let to several tenants (e.g. student houses).

There are no regulations (apart from duty of care) for rented houses, flats etc. as far as the electrical installation is concerned.



Nicholas: This will not happen.

 

[Spazz]

Spark 68 - just to clear this up this is not legislation - this is regulations

legislation is law
Regulations are not

them with wigs will follow the Regs though but if you have a good reason to differ that will sand up then you can

 

[spark 68]

Iam talking about regulations too, you are talking about changing the law (title of this thread), ergo legislation, if you are going to change the law, then you need to be very clear on your proposals.

Edit: look at the mess that is part P, this was not thought out properly either, and yes I pay for registration because it is the law.

 

[spark 68]

Nicholas Owen: plus why would they make a 17th Ed board which does not comply - they wouldn't!

I have already said there is no such animal, it does not exist except in marketing speak.

even dual split RCD boards don't fully comply to the 17th ed, and this was a misnomer from the start on cost grounds, ie, the so-called 17th ed CU.

 

[UNG]

I think this thread should be renamed fatally flawed statistics

You and your 400 accomplices are trying to bulldoze government to introduce legislation with statistics that are not worth the thread they are posted in I just hope you keep it in Wales.

You post statistics with big numbers yet no breakdown to support this crusade, as with all statistics they distort and twist the truth to suit the authors needs and very rarely show the true picture due to poor analysis of the raw data and incidents being placed in the wrong category

It has to be said that statistics are like a broken lamp standard great for leaning on but they don't show any light

You quote HMO regs yet these are already regulated as far as I'm aware by licence which is renewed every 3 or 5 years and documents and premises are checked by the council

I for one would oppose more nanny state legislation like I oppose Part P as a useless not fit for purpose waste of space

If it did get to law you could have a new business opportunity going round to rented accom pressing the test button every 3 months as I bet the occupier wouldn't do it and I've seen a lot of RCD's that don't trip because of this when they are really needed

In terms of time spent lobbying to get this into law and the costs you are obviously incurring I cannot see what motive you have and can only assume you are hoping to recoup your outlay by this hitting the statute book and gaining more business from it although I do think you under estimate the ability of an insurance company to read an EICR

How about a poll on the forum to see how many support what you are proposing

 

[Guest123]

How about a poll on the forum to see how many support what you are proposing

I'd be happy to arrange it mate, if the op agrees.

 

[IQ Electrical]

I'd be happy to arrange it mate, if the op agrees.

Ha, I thought you meant the topic title change!

 

[Strima]

Who'd be responsible for conducting 3 monthly tests of the RCD's. I'd quite happily charge £35 a time to turn up at the door and press a couple of buttons and fill in a bit of paperwork. Who'd pay for this? Bet the tenant ends up paying adding extra financial burden.

Sidenote: According to Vic Reeves 76% of statistics are made up!!!

 

[Knobhead]

89% of Vic Reeves is made up = 11% true.
76% false statistics= 24% true
So 11% of 24% = 2.64% of statistics could be true.

This thread is getting silly.