Coding of non bs7671 cables

[Ian1981]

As title suggests, how many people carrying out EICR code the use of non compliant cables or at least cables not included in bs7671 for fixed wiring such as SY, YY cables.
I see more and more of this type of cabling used for the fixed wiring to anything as a supply to a socket outlet, to a supply for refrigerator units.

Appreciate people’s thoughts and opinions on the matter.

 

[KEV 1 N]

I also see a lot of it in use, particularly from isolators to machines or AC units, also from DBs to 3phase sockets and isolators.
Never really thought about the issue of it not being included in BS7671. I judge it on whether it’s appropriate for where and what it’s supplying and is glanced correctly at both ends.
For the written report, cable type will be O (other) and in the box I will write “SY Cable”

 

[westward10]

I tend not to but I did C2 one in a factory just before Christmas where someone has used the braid as a cpc and the green/yellow for another purpose but generally no. They can be difficult to size although most now have the csa on the sheath, very deceptive though. Ccc also must be guaged by using correction factors depending on the number of cores. Must admit where someone has earthed the braid it is not possible to judge its ability to carry fault current.

 

[Strima]

Ideally I like to see the voltage rating on the cable and go from there.

 

[Ian1981]

I normally just make a note on the eicr regarding such use of cables like SY for fixed wiring however Im for ever more leaning towards a C3 at times as how can a safety call be made when testing to bs7671 when the dam cable is not included in the regulations

 

[Wilko]

If installed correctly (as per Westie) and undamaged then C3 is my thought. Based on - it must be an improvement to use a cable that's approved for the job.

 

[Octopus]

I think a more wide ranging question would be why people think these cables are suitable for the installation.

I looked at a job recently where an outside light was moved .... the sparky used SY cable - it was outside, and fixed to a wall ..... whereas NYYJ or HNO5 would have been much better choices ....

 

[Deleted member 26818]

how can a safety call be made when testing to bs7671 when the dam cable is not included in the regulations

It’s flex, treat it as such.
If the braid has been used as the CPC, it’s a code C2.

 

[Adj]

Yes it's a flex, but the installation of it will not comply with 7671.
Even NAPIT states-

"In order to be certain that cables comply with BS 7671, only those cables which are recognised in BS 7671 should be selected"

Therefore, theoretically, if you are completing EICR's under NAPIT it's a C3
It's a good and useful cable that has dropped all of us into a huge grey area - not for the first time.

 

[Ian1981]

I would conclude that if the cables in question are being used outside of the manufacturers recommendations then we should be flagging this up in our reports.
If they state that their SY cables are not suitable for fixed wiring of an electrical installation then we need to make the appropriate comments or codes.
Admittedly I don’t often find myself phoning Doncaster cables technical department( other cables are available) very often.

 

[Zdb]

It's a good and useful cable that has dropped all of us into a huge grey area - not for the first time.

I wish it was included into BS7671 to remove the "grey area".

 

[Octopus]

I wish it was included into BS7671 to remove the "grey area".

Remove the grey area- ha ha ha

If BS 7671 was sent to the plain English Society before the 18th edition is printed, it would delay the process by about 10 years.

Being it on ....

 

[Spoon]

Just out of general interest but RS SY cables are ok for 'fixed installations' according to them.

RS Stock No. 522-676

 

[westward10]

Saw this novel way of earthing the braid today.

 

[Ian1981]

Saw this novel way of earthing the braid today.View attachment 40383

Fantastic!!

 

[Zdb]

That's a new one! I normally see people put earth sleeving on twisted up braid.

These people are out there !!

 

[westward10]

Is in a lift motor room, they have also done it across an isolator.

 

[Spoon]

Just out of general interest but RS SY cables are ok for 'fixed installations' according to them.

RS Stock No. 522-676
View attachment 40380

I questioned this with RS.. They say it's an error and thanked me for pointing it out.

 

[Ian1981]

I questioned this with RS.. They say it's an error and thanked me for pointing it out.

So they are unsuitable for fixed wiring?

 

[Spoon]

So they are unsuitable for fixed wiring?

I think this is what they are going to change it to.

Note
SY control cables are not suitable for fixed wiring applications requiring compliance with the requirements set out in BS7671.

 

[LeeH]

I’m struggling to think of an application SY is actually suitable for!

 

[Strima]

I’m struggling to think of an application SY is actually suitable for!

We use it a lot in telecoms as it is very flexible and has better mechanical protection than double insulated. SWA can be tricky to get into some of the areas and equipment that is used, SY just fits straight in with very little manipulation.

I like working with SY apart from the braid sticking into the end of my fingers... Had it under the finger nails more than once...

Also very good for connecting to equipment where a bit of free movement is needed or where there's vibrating equipment.

 

[LeeH]

Those are the normal reasonings but other cables are available. It’s completely useless in the wet or outside and is a terrible cable for VSD use.

 

[Toneyz]

What about FP200 etc then?

 

[Spud28]

Been asked to look connect a portacabin that is supplied by SWA to an isolator, whereupon SY has been used over a 5m run in the fabric of the cabin to supply a DB. The cable calcs all work out except for the use of the SY. Part of me thinks change it, but part of me thinks that copper is copper at the end of the day! What would you do?

 

[telectrix]

connect it and just make a note on your EIC that you don't consider it ideal.

 

[westward10]

Make a stand for the people

 

[davesparks]

What about FP200 etc then?

What about it? It is manufactured to British standards and BASEC approved.

 

[Toneyz]

What about it? It is manufactured to British standards and BASEC approved.

Is it recognised by BS7671?

 

[davesparks]

Is it recognised by BS7671?

Yes because it is manufactured to British standards and BASEC approved.
The problem with SY YY CY etc is that it’s not manufactured to British standards, it is manufactured to foreign standards

 

[Strima]

SY may not be recognised by BS 7671 yet it’s installation is still tested on tha AM2...

 

[suffolkspark]

it either needs putting in the next regs, or when the entire population of uk sparks go on the 18th, they need to tell us all not to use it. its just stupid.

 

[Zdb]

Looks like Eland cables - veriflex is compliant with BS standards. That Just makes it even more confusing than it already was/is.

 

[netblindpaul]

I have taken NAPIT to task over their blanket "ban" on SY, and they are looking at it.
Under certain conditions of external influence it is totally unsuitable.
Under other conditions of external influence it is very good.
It must be rated as per BS 6004 flex, or whatever the BS EN is for that now.
Also BS7671 does allow the use of HD's, EN's & equivalent national regulations for cable spec, and some SY is to DIN spec, some.
As has been said, totally unsuitable for use as a screened cable for VSD's, unless the cable manufacturer specifies it as such.
If you think about it, BS7671 stops at the point of connection of machinery etc. which would be the local isolator, so, after the isolator, for machinery, then different standards apply, and this is where it is better suited.
SWA, solid core and other 7 strand (class 2), wire is unsuitable for external influences AH, therefore the class 5 conductor of SY is more suitable for this, as in attachment to machinery etc.
As long as, it is correctly terminated.
Galnds, ferrules etc.

 

[Lucien Nunes]

This is an old thread but I think what needs to be said is that there are lots of applications for cables out there to which BS7671 does not apply. Most people here being electricians, and the main thrust of their work being to supply electrical power to things, there is a tendency to visualise materials and methods in that context. People get used to BS7671 as being judge and jury of everything they do and they want a simple go / no-go as to whether something complies with that, and dislike 'grey areas.' In reality it's just one of hundreds of national and international electrical standards, any or all of which might be relevant to a cable or other material.

The fact that SY looks like it might be suitable for supplying a socket outlet, for example, is pure coincidence. In the UK we have a specification for cables for that job, which includes amongst other things the radial thickness of insulation. Normal SY has thinner insulation and therefore does not meet the specification. On the other hand, if a robust multicore is needed for connecting to some shaft encoders on a machine that vibrates, it might do a very good job.

To anyone who wants electrical regulations based on simple go / no-go rules, I urge you to read the USA's NEC. Personally I like the grey areas!

 

[elsparko]

braided flex is just for items that are connected that get moved about their immediate vicinity often enough to warrant a more rigid flex for the increased "usage", as opposed to the butyl/flex that often never moves again until the appliance reaches the end of its life

some people do seem to think the braid offers protection from impact but it really doesnt at all

is fun to make one of those chinese finger traps with the braid though