Debate with fellow domestic sparky

[Dustydazzler]

So , I was at a house this afternoon pricing a small job and there was a fellow domestic installer sparks there as well, pricing the same job (awkward)

We got chatting about part pee amongst other things (boring)

Long and short I mentioned the garage / outbuiding rewire + replacement fuse board needs notifying under part pee , he was absolutely adamant that is does not. He actually was quite aggressive saying I was totally wrong. He went on to say in his 14 years as a registered D.I that he has never notified any work in a garage or outbuilding...

am I wrong ??

 

[James]

From the official document

Certification procedures are set out in Section 3.
Scope
2.2 Part P applies to electrical installations:
a. in a dwelling-house or flat, and to parts of the installation that are:
(i) outside the dwelling – for example fixed lighting and air conditioning units attached to outside walls, photovoltaic panels on roofs, and fixed lighting and pond pumps in gardens
(ii) in outbuildings such as sheds, detached garages and domestic greenhouses.
b. in the common access areas of blocks of flats such as corridors and staircases
c. in shared amenities of blocks of flats such as laundries, kitchens and gymnasiums
d. in business premises (other than agricultural buildings) connected to the same meter as the electrical installation in a dwelling – for example shops and public houses below flats.
2.3 Part P does not apply to electrical installations:
a. in business premises in the same building as a dwelling but with separate metering
b. that supply the power for lifts in blocks of flats (but Part P does apply to lift installations in single dwellings).
NOTE: Schedule 2 to the Building Regulations identifies buildings – for example unoccupied, agricultural, temporary and small detached buildings – that are generally exempt from the requirements of the Regulations. However, conservatories, porches, domestic greenhouses, garages and sheds that share their electricity with a dwelling are not exempt from Part P (by virtue of regulation 9(3)) and must comply with its requireme

 

[Dustydazzler]

I think his argument was replacing a fuse board and renewing the wiring is repair / replacement rather than new work , this exempt from part pee

 

[loz2754]

In England a new circuit, additions and alterations to room with a bath or shower, and replacing a consumer unit are notifiable works.
He should be reported to his scheme.

How he has got away with it thus far is a testament to how well the part P scheme is working...

 

[buzzlightyear]

am I wrong

no ,i would hit him on the head with the BBB, wake up at the back.

 

[Dustydazzler]

Got me thinking , if he hasn’t notified any board changes in 14 years what is the blooming point of being a part pee sparks in the first place , seems all a bit backwards ypou pay your subs to literally notify nothing

 

[Pete999]

So , I was at a house this afternoon pricing a small job and there was a fellow domestic installer sparks there as well, pricing the same job (awkward)

We got chatting about part pee amongst other things (boring)

Long and short I mentioned the garage / outbuiding rewire + replacement fuse board needs notifying under part pee , he was absolutely adamant that is does not. He actually was quite aggressive saying I was totally wrong. He went on to say in his 14 years as a registered D.I that he has never notified any work in a garage or outbuilding...

am I wrong ??

No that's why Part P is a farce, IMO. Hence the reason why so many ill informed Sparks think Part P is a qualification, no understanding of the rules.

 

[marcuswareham]

Was the garage CU fed from a MCB/RCBO from the main house CU?

I am wondering if his argument was that is was modification to an existing circuit?

 

[loz2754]

Was the garage CU fed from a MCB/RCBO from the main house CU?

I am wondering if his argument was that is was modification to an existing circuit?

Even so, a consumer unit change in its own right, is notifiable works. This chap is either wilfully ignorant, or ignorantly wilfull. He does whatever suits him, regardless of the law.
It's a shame the law actually applies to the person ordering the work, and not the electrician doing the work. He has helped all those unwitting customers to break the law for these last 14 years.

 

[marcuswareham]

Even so, a consumer unit change in its own right, is notifiable works. This chap is either wilfully ignorant, or ignorantly wilfull. He does whatever suits him, regardless of the law.
It's a shame the law actually applies to the person ordering the work, and not the electrician doing the work. He has helped all those unwitting customers to break the law for these last 14 years.

Yeah even a small 5 module garage unit still counts as a consumer unit change,

I dont know enough about part P etc just wondered if that was his logic

Where is the line drawn as I guess a little 2 module enclosure wouldn't count as a CU?

It is quite strange although, as others have said gone to the trouble of joining a scheme but if he is not notifying then whats the point ?

 

[loz2754]

A consumer unit is a type tested assembly to BS EN 61439-3. A 2 module enclosure is not, and so would not need notifying.

 

[Baddegg]

Got me thinking , if he hasn’t notified any board changes in 14 years what is the blooming point of being a part pee sparks in the first place , seems all a bit backwards ypou pay your subs to literally notify nothing

Same old story dusty, all will be fine till it’s not, someone will die and then they’ll shut the gate....

 

[Lister1987]

Same old story dusty, all will be fine till it’s not, someone will die and then they’ll shut the gate....

Don't count on it, 2 words: Grenfell Tower, pretty sure no gates have yet to be shut, good for thought.

 

[stevethesparks]

A consumer unit is a type tested assembly to BS EN 61439-3. A 2 module enclosure is not, and so would not need notifying.

I'd say that would be a poor excuse not to notify. The circuits from such a 2 module enclosure would still be new circuits, and the ocpd characteristics would have been changed.

 

[loz2754]

I'd say that would be a poor excuse not to notify. The circuits from such a 2 module enclosure would still be new circuits, and the ocpd characteristics would have been changed.

They may or may not be new circuits. If they are new circuits they'll need to be notified.

 

[loz2754]

I'd say that would be a poor excuse not to notify. The circuits from such a 2 module enclosure would still be new circuits, and the ocpd characteristics would have been changed.

I'm not looking for an excuse. It doesn't bother me if I have to notify something, as I'm registered to do so. Just pointing out that the list of things that need to be notified is very small and clearly defined, and does not include a 2 module enclosure. It could be argued that a switched fused isolator is a type of consumer unit I suppose. The wording in part P is very precise yet still unclear. Typical government document.

 

[stevethesparks]

I'm not looking for an excuse.

Was not pointing a finger at you, just the concept that others may see this as an excuse. Personally I would notify. Part P does seem to indicate this would be a necessity if in Wales, but isn't so clear imho for other area's.

 

[old man sparky]

Its not difficult to notify your work, especially if your with a scheme provider. He obviously is not taking into account the legal repercussions that he could be placing his client under. After all its the home owner who will be responsible for ensuring they use a registered contractor who can back there work up with documentation.
Having said that part P is not particularly well policed, or its requirements made known to the average person, so many get away with this kind of thing.
His arguments going to be something like.
Its not the consumer unit mate that's in the house.
This is a fuse board, connected to an existing radial circuit, from that consumer unit.
Just an improvement on the existing socket it was connected too originally with a fused spur for the lights.
No part P no installation cert. Here's your minor works (If your lucky) bish bash bosh give me yer cash and I'm on me way.
Am I speaking from experience here, sadly yes. But gave up spitting feathers on this kind of thing years ago, doesn't do the blood pressure any good.
How,s about asking him how he verifies Design, Construction, suitability for the environment ect and of course testing.
How suitable is the supply cable for the clients supply and demand ?
What earthing arrangements are at the origin, and can they be safely exported with possible bonding considerations ? Or will a TT system need to be considered. The list goes on but only an experienced or willing to learn sparky will know that.
A lot has changed since I came into the Industry back in 1969, but sadly the horse riders still seem to successfully navigate there way around the industry, turning it into a cash cow.
For what its worth, things have improved a hell of a lot though.
Whoops sorry !! I've waffled on a bit.

 

[loz2754]

Welcome to the forum old man!