DIYers/Builders...when will it end

[J&M Electrical]

How much longer are Builder and DIY'ers going to carry on 'de-valuing' our trade. It seems the more i read on here and the more i see out on site DIY electrics are getting more and more common. It winds me up that we go to college for 3/4 Years to get a qualification that enables us to work safely yet every Tom Dick and Harry can go into B&Q/Screwfix etc buy some cable and sockets, have a quick look at a diagram B&Q have kindly put up for them and then go home and bodge their electrics. The Gas lads seem to be starting to get it sorted but we haven't. Personally the only way i think this will stop is to give every qualified electrician a card similar to the Gas Safe card and make it law that electrical items can only be sold to people who hold this card. Am i on my own or do others feel the same? Sorry to rant but it makes my blood boil.

 

[Octopus]

The situation is not helped, by some members here, who hand out information to absolutely anyone.

 

[J&M Electrical]

The situation is not helped, by some members here, who hand out information to absolutely anyone.

Thats what annoys me aswell. I bet the majority of people wouldn't dream of doing any gas work, but they would play with electrics at the drop of a hat.

 

[oldtimer]

Sounds a great idea lets get the Schemies involved they can manage it and get a cut of our earnings or we could wake up to realise that this government and current economical climate will not sanction this.

Anyway joking apart welcome to the ****** of and frustrated club now every Friday I close the curtains put on scented candles get in the meditation position and chant pleasant thoughts then i wait for the phoneto ring with the "Builders let me down speach" and can you be a good chap and come down and sign off my electrics for Building Control. I kid you not it is always on a Friday

 

[oldtimer]

The situation is not helped, by some members here, who hand out information to absolutely anyone.

Point taken I for on agree

 

[oldtimer]

Thats what annoys me aswell. I bet the majority of people wouldn't dream of doing any gas work, but they would play with electrics at the drop of a hat.

Yep and the same people will pay £25k for a car and could not care less about the box under the stair and when I mentioned this to a customer he said yea but you dont invite friends in and say did you see my new consumer unit when you came in what do you think ?

Yep Ego before Safety

 

[i=p/u]

musten be that lethal if not that many die from it tho....

as for electricians givig out info to harry and his bucket full o dinaours, the other forums arnt so helpfull i.e appliance forums unless you have half a clue in what your talking about and looking for

 

[i=p/u]

we very ni e people on this forum, but i for one was glad of the pointers ive had over time

 

[Adam W]

JIB already do one, the problem apparently being that you can't get a gold one without doing the NVQ3, or some people can't get past the JIB simply existing to set pay rates.

In a weird way I like doing something which is a lot harder than it looks, although I still like to be appreciated; where I work there was this guy who had worked as a chippie for about 12 years, then one day he suddenly started working as a sparky. Needless to say he was rubbish at it, and went back to being a chippie, but it's not as if they would let me just turn up one day and start chopping up wood or tinkering around with engines without any kind of qualifications.
Some other guy had got a job out of the paper making up cable looms (cutting wire to pre-determined lengths and taping them together) and making up termination boxes (screwing DIN rail and Wagos into adaptable boxes) then after 4 years they let him transfer to production, working as a sparky. Again, he didn't have a scooby, then after a couple of months went back to taping up lengths of cable, mainly because he didn't like the dusty environment. What brings my wee wee to a boil is that standing at a nice clean bench and making what's on the picture effectively pays more than having gone to college for years, and crawling around under floors.

Rant over..... For now.

 

[Deleted member 9648]

I bet a high percentage of the guys moaning about DIY electrics wont think twice about changing the brakes on their car....and meanwhile on a mechanics forum somewhere there's a thread about DIY car repairs and how car parts shouldnt be available to electricians!

 

[piratebillybob]

when anyone can buy equipment off the net, asking for a gold card at B&Q wont stop anything.

 

[i=p/u]

thats it like one good spark two good labourers is whats out there..

electrics is a bill every month and does nothing astheticaly to most standard installations out there , so long as works it works, then you get odd person who does ask you to check if safe and like some fancy fittings and stuff but less than more, hey ho, i can paint, clean windows, dont think theres a million to be made installing cables and switches

 

[oldtimer]

Wow this post is certanly getting the comments

Also I kiss my gold card and put it under the pillow every night

 

[Octopus]

From what I encountered today I think I'm going into house clearances!

 

[i=p/u]

you want a food shop.... thats where cash is

 

[oldtimer]

you want a food shop.... thats where cash is

No I am not greedy 5 numbers and a bonus ball please

 

[mickys86]

Coffee shop, they make a fortune in profits......

Grass is always greener!!!

 

[i=p/u]

i am and want 5 and two stars

 

[Edd]

The situation is not helped, by some members here, who hand out information to absolutely anyone.

Lowers head in shame.. I just get carred away and enjoy thinking through peoples problems...
Now wheres that book on gas fitting......

seriously though I should think more about who I give advice too

 

[Adam W]

Coffee shop, they make a fortune in profits......

Grass is always greener!!!

I reckon dentistry is where the money is at - OK you have to pay some fit bird to stand next to you and write stuff down, and a grumpy bird to sit behind a desk being rude to people, but £30 for a quick checkup? Dick Turpin, mask etc!
There seems to be a 'massive skills shortage' as well - most of the dentists around here are fully booked.
I wonder if I can do a 5 week distance learning dentistry course...

 

[piratebillybob]

hairdressing is where its at. £15 for a 15 minute hair cut? No wonder i shave my own head

 

[i=p/u]

is their much work around edinburgh old timer, i moved there once , set two steps in the jobs centre and new was a waste of time.. very long waiting times to vacancy closes.. loda ......

 

[GLENNSPARK]

Wow this post is certanly getting the comments

Also I kiss my gold card and put it under the pillow every night

not too old to be hoping for the goldcard fairy then.....

 

[Knobhead]

Out of interest if you manage to control the sale of electrical equipment, how do I go and buy what I need for a job at home. Do I have to take all my qualifications along with me? I’m not, nor would I ever be a member of a scam (sorry scheme).
One disadvantage of finishing work is I can’t float stuff through on the back of orders as I had for thirty + years before. (Two 6 way 200A RedSpot boards and a Wylex consumer unit must have looked a bit odd).
Gas fittings are readily on sale along with the electrical gear. I’ve just bought some to put my new cooker in.
Be realistic, how can it be controlled?

 

[alarm man]

Dick mask etc!

ive always closed my eyes when getting my teeth done..never again..thought it felt big for a drill...:rockstar:

 

[mickys86]

I reckon dentistry is where the money is at - OK you have to pay some fit bird to stand next to you and write stuff down, and a grumpy bird to sit behind a desk being rude to people, but £30 for a quick checkup? Dick Turpin, mask etc!
There seems to be a 'massive skills shortage' as well - most of the dentists around here are fully booked.
I wonder if I can do a 5 week distance learning dentistry course...

You've definitely trumped me there. I had a check up and clean the other day. Hygienist and dentist - £88!!!

 

[mickys86]

hairdressing is where its at. £15 for a 15 minute hair cut? No wonder i shave my own head

And I ain't tellin you how much I pay for My hair..... Less than the £1 a minute your quoting thou.....

 

[GLENNSPARK]

let em bloody carry on i say....then we have to go put it right for em......

 

[Golden_Boy]

Out of interest if you manage to control the sale of electrical equipment, how do I go and buy what I need for a job at home. Do I have to take all my qualifications along with me? I’m not, nor would I ever be a member of a scam (sorry scheme).
One disadvantage of finishing work is I can’t float stuff through on the back of orders as I had for thirty + years before. (Two 6 way 200A RedSpot boards and a Wylex consumer unit must have looked a bit odd).
Gas fittings are readily on sale along with the electrical gear. I’ve just bought some to put my new cooker in.
Be realistic, how can it be controlled?

This is not confined to the UK.
In Australia ( where i used to live ) I was often asked to look at fixed wiring problems even though I had NO tickets at all connected to installation/inspection or testing. I repaired televisions for a living in those days. Even with the very tight laws there re supply of electical items to the public I NEVER had any trouble getting hold of whatever kit I needed.
In this country we will never control the sale of anything as long as the sellers make a few bob....

 

[imago]

Nothing like a spot of deceased equine flogging!

Computer software should only be sold to programmers, HMRC should only talk to accountants, an MOT test should only be carried out for a mechanic accompanying the car, food should only be prepared by people with a hygene certificate, asprin should only be prescribed by a doctor, etc etc etc.

Electricians or Orwellians?

I have seen some awful work by DIYers, but it's no worse than the awful work I have seen carried out by time served qualified electricians. It's the way the world is. You'll have to learn to accept it though, because you should only ever have one skill and do one job from leaving school. So you can't leave now.

 

[alarm man]

Nothing like a spot of deceased equine flogging!

Computer software should only be sold to programmers, HMRC should only talk to accountants, an MOT test should only be carried out for a mechanic accompanying the car, food should only be prepared by people with a hygene certificate, asprin should only be prescribed by a doctor, etc etc etc.

Electricians or Orwellians?

I have seen some awful work by DIYers, but it's no worse than the awful work I have seen carried out by time served qualified electricians. It's the way the world is. You'll have to learn to accept it though, because you should only ever have one skill and do one job from leaving school. So you can't leave now.

you missed out the Electrical Trainee there too ...

 

[D80]

I don't think the likes of B&Q should be selling electrical products that need Part Pee notification (something non existent here, but they do it in England and Wales where Part Pee is in place). Nor should they offer "guidance". If you don't know how to wire 2 way lights or fit a consumer unit, then you shouldn't be bloody near it! And nor should this forum advise on that!

I find it crazy that its harder to get stuff from a food wholesalers as a Joe Bloggs than it is from an Electrical Wholesalers. Apart from the obvious issue that some Electrical Wholesalers employ idiots (which makes getting the right stuff bloody difficult) there are no checks in place to see who you are, whereas food wholesalers require quite a few bits of documentation to allow you to shop with them.

Walk into a food wholesalers as an unknown - not much chance of getting anything. Walk into an electrical wholesaler as an unknown, get what you want and probably some free advice to boot. Joke!

 

[Dave 85]

Nothing like a spot of deceased equine flogging!

Computer software should only be sold to programmers, HMRC should only talk to accountants, an MOT test should only be carried out for a mechanic accompanying the car, food should only be prepared by people with a hygene certificate, asprin should only be prescribed by a doctor, etc etc etc.

Electricians or Orwellians?

I have seen some awful work by DIYers, but it's no worse than the awful work I have seen carried out by time served qualified electricians. It's the way the world is. You'll have to learn to accept it though, because you should only ever have one skill and do one job from leaving school. So you can't leave now.

My sentiments exactly. Im gald to see im not the only person in the world still capable of rational thought.

Death to the effing nanny state. Ban the sale of sockets and cable to non electricians? why? apart from giving electricians more work what is this actually going to acheive for the wider world? Nothing.

You guys are really getting boring. DIY electrical work is really not the end of the world. Wake up!
There are lots of problems in this country at the moment, many of which are due to the nanny state, but thousands of people electrocuting themselves and burning their houses down through DIY electrical work is not one of them.
And this ones really gonna make me popular....
Its wiring not ******* brainsurgery!!!!

 

[alarm man]

Its wiring not ******* brainsurgery!!!!

get either wrong it ends up in death..

 

[Dave 85]

I don't think the likes of B&Q should be selling electrical products that need Part Pee notification (something non existent here, but they do it in England and Wales where Part Pee is in place). Nor should they offer "guidance". If you don't know how to wire 2 way lights or fit a consumer unit, then you shouldn't be bloody near it! And nor should this forum advise on that!

I find it crazy that its harder to get stuff from a food wholesalers as a Joe Bloggs than it is from an Electrical Wholesalers. Apart from the obvious issue that some Electrical Wholesalers employ idiots (which makes getting the right stuff bloody difficult) there are no checks in place to see who you are, whereas food wholesalers require quite a few bits of documentation to allow you to shop with them.

Walk into a food wholesalers as an unknown - not much chance of getting anything. Walk into an electrical wholesaler as an unknown, get what you want and probably some free advice to boot. Joke!

Thing is mate
DIY electrics, as in, buying a few sockets and doing electrical work in your home would be comparible to buying a few sausages from the supermarket and cooking them in your home. If you are at a food wholsaler, it is almost certainly not gonna be for personal use, whereas an elec wholesaler it could well be.
And if elec wholsalers started being gay about who they sell to, people would just buy stuff off the net, and the wholesalers will suffer.
It would be near impossible to blanket control the sale of elec goods

It will never ever ever happen.
Why?
Not enough people are dying.

 

[GLENNSPARK]

Thing is mate
DIY electrics, as in, buying a few sockets and doing electrical work in your home would be comparible to buying a few sausages from the supermarket and cooking them in your home. If you are at a food wholsaler, it is almost certainly not gonna be for personal use, whereas an elec wholesaler it could well be.
And if elec wholsalers started being gay about who they sell to, people would just buy stuff off the net, and the wholesalers will suffer.
It would be near impossible to blanket control the sale of elec goods

It will never ever ever happen.
Why?
Not enough people are dying.

skip the sausage isle at the local supermarket.....various cable and electrical accessories etc grace the shelves there now.....

 

[Dave 85]

get either wrong it ends up in death..

Get brain surgery wrong its prolly 50/50 that the patient will come out alive without mental illness. Get electrics wrong: it wont work/the rcd will pop/the breaker will pop/it will be perfectly safe and work fine/absolutely minute chance that there will be a fire and somone will die.

I mean really....
If there are sooo many DIYers out there, what we talking? 1% of people are at it?
So thats about 600 000...
And how many are dying
Yeah thats right
Less than 30 (none of which are nessecarily caused by DIY work)
And my guess would be most fixed wiring electrical fires are caused by very very old wirng on very old fuseboards carried out by what are now very very old time served sparkies.

 

[alarm man]

Get brain surgery wrong its prolly 50/50 that the patient will come out alive without mental illness. Get electrics wrong: it wont work/the rcd will pop/the breaker will pop/it will be perfectly safe and work fine/absolutely minute chance that there will be a fire and somone will die.

did you learn that on week 1 or 5

 

[Dave 85]

did you learn that on week 1 or 5

Aren't you a clever boy
Learnt that one of yer idol E54 didn't yer?
When you are completely incapable of giving any reason or evidence to back up your arguments, you go back to your rather pathetic attempt to ridicule people by accusing them of doing a short trainig course. Classic E54.

Take it from me
the only person you are making look stupid is yourself.

 

[alarm man]

Aren't you a clever boy
Learnt that one of yer idol E54 didn't yer?
When you are completely incapable of giving any reason or evidence to back up your arguments, you go back to your rather pathetic attempt to ridicule people by accusing them of doing a short trainig course. Classic E54.

Take it from me
the only person you are making look stupid is yourself.

no comment,well until e54 comments then i'll just agree with me dad...

 

[Knobhead]

Walk into a food wholesalers as an unknown - not much chance of getting anything. Walk into an electrical wholesaler as an unknown, get what you want and probably some free advice to boot. Joke!

Good job I’ve got my public food hygiene and gas safe certificates.

 

[i=p/u]

soon as rcd hit the scenes , it started to go down hill, but do not rely on rcd as sole means of protection

 

[micknew]

All DIYers need to do is buy material from B&Q or an electrical wholesaler then ask questions on here.
Sparks on an ego trip will fall over themselves to answer their questions.

 

[piratebillybob]

B&Q need to give more advice and information not less.

the sale of electrical equipment to the public is never going to be "restricted" and there are always going to be "have a go" diy'ers who think they can do it.

So the best thing to do is to inform and educate without necessarily promoting.

All purchases of electrical equipment should be provided with information about the dangers of doing electrical diy, what they can and cant do as DIY. The legal implications and dangers if they go beyond their diy parameters

They should include simple "best practise guides" on electrical installation and some do's and donts.

Lights and sockets isnt rocket science. DIY electrics doesnt kill people, bad DIY electrics does.

And sure giving more information may deter some, encourage others but at least theyll (hopefully) be doing the job right when they do it.

 

[plugsandsparks]

What i say to my customers is " you have to be unlucky to die from an electric shock at 240V" its the fires that kill you.
What i have seen cause fires is equipment failing, getting very hot but the breakers still pumping juice into the load until it gets so hot it catches fire. Then eventually the wiring gets burned and the breaker pops but the fire is already going.
Thats why i am a big fan of RCDs, even though they are a pain, not because it reduces the chance of an electric shock but simply it should trip long before a fire is even brewing.
And guess what the number of times i come across breakers larger than the current carrying capacity of the cable and what the load needs is way too common and quite mis-understood in terms of what happens when the load is faulty.
Let B&Q sell RCDs and CUs, the more out there the better and i've just ordered a new swanky clamp meter for testing these beasts so more work for me.

 

[D80]

Thing is mate
DIY electrics, as in, buying a few sockets and doing electrical work in your home would be comparible to buying a few sausages from the supermarket and cooking them in your home. If you are at a food wholsaler, it is almost certainly not gonna be for personal use, whereas an elec wholesaler it could well be.
And if elec wholsalers started being gay about who they sell to, people would just buy stuff off the net, and the wholesalers will suffer.
It would be near impossible to blanket control the sale of elec goods

It will never ever ever happen.
Why?
Not enough people are dying.

Sockets are one thing, Part Pee is supposed to be law. You can buy a socket to replace an existing, or bluff as such and add another. Consumer Units need notification, unless you want to tell me they are at all likely to be used in a non domestic environment.

If you want to DIY it badly enough you will get the gear. But it shouldn't be as freely available, from sheds to wholesalers, complete with guides and (bad) advice. It may be only a matter of time before we see an Asda smart price consumer unit, there is a gap in the market for it!
You don't need to be a chef to cook a dinner at home, nor do you need anything other than a pan and an oven. To fit a CU you need the equipment to test after install! And if England and Wales need to notify the job, something you don't need to do if you cook a turkey dinner with all the trimmings at home. More folk probably die of food poisoning than electrocution, but no law or regulations govern cooking at home.

 

[D80]

B&Q need to give more advice and information not less.

the sale of electrical equipment to the public is never going to be "restricted" and there are always going to be "have a go" diy'ers who think they can do it.

So the best thing to do is to inform and educate without necessarily promoting.

All purchases of electrical equipment should be provided with information about the dangers of doing electrical diy, what they can and cant do as DIY. The legal implications and dangers if they go beyond their diy parameters

They should include simple "best practise guides" on electrical installation and some do's and donts.

Lights and sockets isnt rocket science. DIY electrics doesnt kill people, bad DIY electrics does.

And sure giving more information may deter some, encourage others but at least theyll (hopefully) be doing the job right when they do it.

Regarding likes of a CU - they should simply advise if you ain't a spark, you ain't getting it.

If you can't replace a socket or do likes of 2 way lighting without a guide - then you shouldn't be getting the accessories you need to do the task. Nowt to do with keeping sparks in work, they will obviously get the repair work that is obvious (if CPC etc has fallen out of back of socket, it may be too late then!).

 

[GLENNSPARK]

Regarding likes of a CU - they should simply advise if you ain't a spark, you ain't getting it.

If you can't replace a socket or do likes of 2 way lighting without a guide - then you shouldn't be getting the accessories you need to do the task. Nowt to do with keeping sparks in work, they will obviously get the repair work that is obvious (if CPC etc has fallen out of back of socket, it may be too late then!).

wont happen though....free trade n all that...and the right to trade n all......the foundations of this country were built on it......our whole society is based on it.....

 

[D80]

What's it got to do with free trade? Unless letting a builder masquerade as a spark is part of free trade.

I can't get a job as a solicitor cause, well I ain't a solicitor. That's nowt to do with free trade, its about being bloody qualified in your industry.

If anything Part Pee is an infraction on free trade! Only in Part Pee is a 5 week wonder deemed competent whereas a time served long serving commercial / industrial spark deemed not so!

 

[Andy78]

This thread has prompted me to look at the electrical section in my B&Q "you can do it" book that someone bought me once. Interesting reading that's for sure. There seems to be just enough arse covering to get away with what they are encouraging people to do. Some of it's bloody awful though. Their guide to replacing a broken socket for eg. Isolate circuit and double check with a plug in socket tester. Use a socket tester on a broken socket to check for dead ? really ?