DIYers/Builders...when will it end

[D80]

They should rename the book "You can do it, but its probably not legal", don't know how they can get away with it tbh.

 

[GLENNSPARK]

What's it got to do with free trade? Unless letting a builder masquerade as a spark is part of free trade.

I can't get a job as a solicitor cause, well I ain't a solicitor. That's nowt to do with free trade, its about being bloody qualified in your industry.

If anything Part Pee is an infraction on free trade! Only in Part Pee is a 5 week wonder deemed competent whereas a time served long serving commercial / industrial spark deemed not so!

but the right to sell certainly IS about free trade.....and it was this that i was gettin at.....i think many in here know what i think about 5 week wonders.....

 

[Engineer54]

Sounds like the wanna-be electrical police are rattling there cages again!!...lol!!!

What's the betting, that it is sparks themselves that are buying these CUs from the likes of B&Q, and rarely by Joe public. And when they do buy them, are probably trying to cut material expenses when employing an electrician to do the work...

Don't know why these people complain about stores like B&Q, electrical goods have always been available to the public in retail outlets, so what's so different now?? Those that come out with those daft ideas about restrictive trading, haven't thought things through at all. What they can't seem to see is that it will all end in tears for them. The price of materials will end up going through the roof. As others have said, ...DIY'ers are a good source of income for electricians, always will and always have been!!

My thoughts on these wanna-be electrical police is before you start worrying about Joe Public doing electrical DIY, you should be more worried about what is out there claiming to be ''Qualified'' electricians, Sort your own house out first!!!

There, ....that should please at least one poster on this thread!!! lol!!!

 

[chris murphy]

How much longer are Builder and DIY'ers going to carry on 'de-valuing' our trade. It seems the more i read on here and the more i see out on site DIY electrics are getting more and more common. It winds me up that we go to college for 3/4 Years to get a qualification that enables us to work safely yet every Tom Dick and Harry can go into B&Q/Screwfix etc buy some cable and sockets, have a quick look at a diagram B&Q have kindly put up for them and then go home and bodge their electrics. The Gas lads seem to be starting to get it sorted but we haven't. Personally the only way i think this will stop is to give every qualified electrician a card similar to the Gas Safe card and make it law that electrical items can only be sold to people who hold this card. Am i on my own or do others feel the same? Sorry to rant but it makes my blood boil.

"Hello J&M Electrical",


I agree with what You wrote - about the Electrical Trade being protected from the DIYer who has NO knowledge of Electrical Safety / Electrical Installation - and I would like to see the 1 or 2 WEEK Electrical `Courses` banned - that is those Courses where People end up THINKING that they can Now carry out Electrical Installations / Work - Not the `Updating Courses` / `Continued Professional Development` for Qualified Electricians.

But regarding Stopping People being able to buy Electrical Items / Electrical Installation Materials I doubt whether that will ever be introduced - ?


I am a Gas Safe Registered `Gas Installer`/ Engineer - In Theory We are VERY Strictly Regulated in terms of having to Pass Gas ACS Assessments / Re-Assessments every 5 Years and Register [and Pay] with Gas Safe every Year in order to be Legally Allowed to Work with Gas / Gas Appliances.

We must have Current ACS Categories for ALL sectors of Gas Work that We carry out - these have been Split into a LOT of Categories If You are carrying out BOTH Domestic and Non Domestic Gas Work.

When CORGI were the Industry Safety Regulator they insisted on Work Inspections for All Registered Gas Installers / Engineers - these were carried out on a Yearly basis for Most - But IF You were considered an `Expert` by your Inspector you would probably not be Inspected again for 2 or 3 Years.

During these Work Inspections the CORGI Inspector would Ask Questions on All aspects of the Gas Work that You were Registered as Carrying Out - These Questions were very often on `New` Regulations / Technical Requirements / Installation Methods - of course they were `Not trying to catch You Out`.

Gas Safe - carry out Inspections related to the Experience [or lack of it] and related to Customer Complaints / Safety Issues - meaning that they try to concentrate their Inspections on Newly Registered Installers or those who have had Complaints about their Work / Safety Issues.


BUT - There is NO Regulation / Law that Stops the Sale of Gas Appliances or Gas Spares / Gas Pipework Fittings to People who are NOT Gas Safe Registered.


There IS an element within the Gas Industry / Gas Installers that states they would want this Law to be Introduced But I cannot see it being brought in any time soon.


I definitely think that People who are NOT Gas Safe Registered should NOT be able to purchase Gas Appliances or Spare Parts - It is `Worrying` to say the least that Joe Bloggs can buy a Spare Part for their Gas Appliance - perhaps having Identified what He thinks has malfunctioned by going online - and then start taking apart His Gas Appliance to Remove a Part and Refit a New one - with probably NO knowledge of the Gas Appliance or `Gas Safety` in general.


As I think has been mentioned previously on the Forum - it is deemed by the Health & Safety Executive that Gas / Gas Appliances being worked on by `Non Competent` [ Not Proven to be Competent] / Unregistered with Gas Safe Persons is more Dangerous to `Life - Health and Property` than People who are Not Qualified working on Electrics - which is why Gas Installers / Engineers have the Constraints that I mentioned above.

IF most Electricians would want to have a similar Assessment / Reassessment Process and a Yearly Registration / `Licensing` Process - I should mention that I recently Paid £800.00 for My Re-Assessments - Just Domestic Natural Gas Core Safety and Appliances - and at present My Yearly Gas Safe Registration is £186.00.

I know that the £800.00 is not much Money when taken that these Gas ACS Re-Assessments do not Expire for 5 Years - and that perhaps the Next 5 Years of Gas Safe Registration will Cost [Guesstimate] £1050.00 [?] - So remaining a Registered Gas Installer / Engineer for the next 5 Years will probably only Cost Me approx. £1850.00 - Not much more than £1.00 per Day over the 5 Years - BUT I still had to find approx. £1000.00 this February / March.


Regards,


Chris

 

[Knobhead]

I’m just stumped as to how we as tradesmen can protect Joe Public from themselves.

Restrict the sale of goods and our industry will be in the dock. Most people and the law will look at limiting sales as restrictive practice.

The big problem in domestic electrics is once the tails leave the meter the installation is the property of the householder. Can you stop Mr. Public changing the brakes on his car? He may be totally incompetent, but it’s his property to do with as he will, until someone gets hurt.

A campaign of information on the dangers would be a start, who’s going to pay for it? Will Joe read it?

Fred down the pub will win hands down while ever legitimate tradesmen are being stung at every turn by the bodies that are supposed to protect them.

I give up!

 

[sparkiegaz]

personally ide make it that if you wanted to do anythink electrical or gas inside your house you would have to tell council and building officer about it no matter what,then give them the name of person or company doing the task ,they have to provide proof that they can do such task and provide test cert at the end of the job,,,all at home owners cost,,,if you dont want to pay then the work dont get done, all houses should be tested by law every two years and insurance company gets proof of this getting done, if you dont have it tested then u have no insurance cover,,,if i want to be a doctor ide have to get trained , if i want to fly jets for virgin ide need to get trained , if you want to mess with gas or electric u have to be trained to do so or pay someone that is,,,,yep i paint and decorate my own house and dont need or have to get a trained painter in because it aint going to blow up or kill anyone even if me colours bash,,,

 

[Engineer54]

personally ide make it that if you wanted to do anythink electrical or gas inside your house you would have to tell council and building officer about it no matter what,then give them the name of person or company doing the task ,they have to provide proof that they can do such task and provide test cert at the end of the job,,,all at home owners cost,,,if you dont want to pay then the work dont get done, all houses should be tested by law every two years and insurance company gets proof of this getting done, if you dont have it tested then u have no insurance cover,,,if i want to be a doctor ide have to get trained , if i want to fly jets for virgin ide need to get trained , if you want to mess with gas or electric u have to be trained to do so or pay someone that is,,,,yep i paint and decorate my own house and dont need or have to get a trained painter in because it aint going to blow up or kill anyone even if me colours bash,,,

Never Ever going to happen...Thank god!!! You still can't see, that this type of stuff will eventually come round to bite you in the arse!!!

It's never been a problem in the past, so what's the big problem all of a sudden now?? Home owners DO NOT owe you as an electrician a living....

 

[chris murphy]

personally ide make it that if you wanted to do anythink electrical or gas inside your house you would have to tell council and building officer about it no matter what,then give them the name of person or company doing the task ,they have to provide proof that they can do such task and provide test cert at the end of the job,,,all at home owners cost,,,if you dont want to pay then the work dont get done, all houses should be tested by law every two years and insurance company gets proof of this getting done, if you dont have it tested then u have no insurance cover,,,if i want to be a doctor ide have to get trained , if i want to fly jets for virgin ide need to get trained , if you want to mess with gas or electric u have to be trained to do so or pay someone that is,,,,yep i paint and decorate my own house and dont need or have to get a trained painter in because it aint going to blow up or kill anyone even if me colours bash,,,

"Hello sparkiegaz",


This is purely regarding the requirement for Gas Installers to be Re-Assessed every 5 Years to be able to `Re-Prove` their Competence:


I remember a Gas Engineer Friend of mine stating that if the Regulations regarding Gas Registration / Assessments were designed to `Protect Life and Health` [Plus Property] - Why was it that a Doctor could Qualify and then become a General Practitioner [GP] and remain so for perhaps 40 Years - Largely Without having to Take / Retake ANY further Medical Exams - ?

Having asked a Doctor whether this was True - He stated that there is `Continued Professional Development` / Medial Update Papers to read / learn - as in Most Professions - But that there are NO Mandatory Medical Exams if you choose to remain a GP - even [at present] if you were a GP for the last 40 Years.


I obviously DO Know how MUCH more Intelligent a Person has to be to become a Doctor than is required to become a Gas Engineer / Installer - BUT this is about the process of ensuring that Professionals who could cause `Death or Health Problems` being Re-Assessed regularly.

I am definitely NOT trying to compare a Gas Installer / Engineer or an Electrician to a DOCTOR - But I did take My Friends point and I believe that `Medical Matters`/ Progressive Medical Research have REALLY Technical `Updates` / Developments in Medication Research going on throughout the Years !


WHY would it be that THE Professional who would be looking after Your Health / Your LIFE does NOT have to be `Re-Assessed` perhaps every 5 Years - ?


These comments are NOT meant to be taken to Compare Gas Installers / Engineers to Doctors - Just to Compare the requirements / lack of the requirement to be Re-Assessed regularly.


Regards,


Chris

 

[Engineer54]

Another thing to consider with Doctors they have to be registered with a National Registration Body!! One with Teeth, that can strike a doctor off the that register when he fails to be competent!! There is then no possible way for that Doctor to practice Medicine within the UK.

Shame most of you don't like the same idea for Electricians, and are more concerned with DIY'ers and B&Q/shed type outlets selling electrical materials to the public!!!

 

[Adam W]

Nothing like a spot of deceased equine flogging!
...
I have seen some awful work by DIYers, but it's no worse than the awful work I have seen carried out by time served qualified electricians. It's the way the world is.

I wondered who would be the first to say that.
I disagree BTW - that seems to suggest that serving your time as an apprentice or adult trainee is a waste of time, which isn't usually the case. OK some slip through the net or decide to err on the 'cowboy side' but generally speaking someone who has learned the trade properly will be 'better' than someone who hasn't.

For the record I don't agree with having to jump through hoops to buy sockets and switches - changing a standard plastic socket for a chrome plated one or replacing a cracked one can be done by someone who feels competent to do so, it doesn't have to be done by an electrician. If the general public weren't allowed to buy installation materials I can see an increase in bodges like 4 way extension leads run through walls, broken sockets glued together etc which I think is worse than using proper materials.
As Tony suggests there are plenty of perfectly competent electricians such as himself who are more than capable of adding a socket or changing a CU in their own home who may not have the right bits of paper or paid the subscriptions to the right organisations to be able to tick some box to fulfil a 'legal requirement'.

The subject of food hygiene is a good one - yes you should have a food hygiene certificate to cook food commercially, but you don't need one to cook in your own home, ie you can give yourself food poisoning but you can't give it to the general public, which is similar to electrical work - you can electrocute yourself with your DIY shenanigans, but if you go around charging for it then questions may be asked.
Incidentally cooking food in a commercial kitchen is about as far removed from cooking in your home as you can get - in most run of the mill restaurants food is just reheated in the microwave or chucked in the fryer, whereas you would change a socket the same way in your own home as you would in someone else's, or an office.

 

[Adam W]

Having said that I do still think wholesalers should sell to the trade cheaper than the sheds do to the general public, the same way as catering establishments buy food cheaper from cash & carry than the rest of us do from the supermarket.

 

[Deleted member 9648]

Regarding likes of a CU - they should simply advise if you ain't a spark, you ain't getting it.

If you can't replace a socket or do likes of 2 way lighting without a guide - then you shouldn't be getting the accessories you need to do the task. Nowt to do with keeping sparks in work, they will obviously get the repair work that is obvious (if CPC etc has fallen out of back of socket, it may be too late then!).

If you are not a mechanic you cant buy car parts....if you are not a gas safe installer you cant buy copper pipe....if you are not a builder you cant buy bricks.....nanny state.
All you guys moaning about diy electrics would be the first to complain if you were prevented from buying any of the above. All it comes down to is a 'not in my back yard' attitude....What the hell does it matter to you if someone wants to do some DIY?

 

[Deleted member 9648]

Never Ever going to happen...Thank god!!! You still can't see, that this type of stuff will eventually come round to bite you in the arse!!!

It's never been a problem in the past, so what's the big problem all of a sudden now?? Home owners DO NOT owe you as an electrician a living....

Best comment I've seen on this entire thread.

 

[ezzzekiel]

and what happens when scheme providers become the ones issuing the cards? at what additional costs and what about all the qualified electricians who arnt a member and can no longer buy materials

 

[oldtimer]

is their much work around edinburgh old timer, i moved there once , set two steps in the jobs centre and new was a waste of time.. very long waiting times to vacancy closes.. loda ......

it depends what you are targetting I do electrical and intruder alarm repairs modifications its a niche market but it works for me as I spoke to a mate who works with a kitchen fitter and as he said he is bashing walls where I am getting a cup o tea and some custard creams that I have to decline because my body is a temple but joking apart I fit in because there are a lot of young pro,s in the big city who want a couple of lights replaced or their immersion is stopped working and I turn up when it suits them ie 18:00 and they like to pay via internet banking and I dont mind as I used to be a shift worker so doing a job for a couple of hours a night or on a Saturday morning is no big deal. Also I am not VAT registered so again the big boys want £90 for the first 1/2 or hour then its a £130 bill plus VAT so it suits me and them and everybody is happy but if you are asking about hoose bashing or conduit bending well err no no thanks

 

[oldtimer]

Guys I have been thinking again and it struck me that it will not be the Schemies or the Government that sort this out it will be the insurance companies just like in the 80s in the USA when insurance companies were paying out large sums of money when people died in a fire and then the battery smoke alarm came out and the insurance companies found that it saved damage to property and life they started giving discounts to homeowners who fitted them plus if there was a fire it was caught early ie prevention .

So where does this leave us then well to it is all about risk and if the insurance companies see risk going up they will be the ones who drive electrical safety in the house and Government plus the Schemies will follow and do as they are told then they will tell you it was their idea in the first place

 

[Engineer54]

Guys I have been thinking again and it struck me that it will not be the Schemies or the Government that sort this out it will be the insurance companies just like in the 80s in the USA when insurance companies were paying out large sums of money when people died in a fire and then the battery smoke alarm came out and the insurance companies found that it saved damage to property and life they started giving discounts to homeowners who fitted them plus if there was a fire it was caught early ie prevention .

So where does this leave us then well to it is all about risk and if the insurance companies see risk going up they will be the ones who drive electrical safety in the house and Government plus the Schemies will follow and do as they are told then they will tell you it was their idea in the first place

The problem with this is, ...employing a scheme member is no guarantee whatsoever, to having a competent electrician conduct any electrical work...

PIR's (or whatever you call them now) are being conducted even today by such registered people on the drive-by basis. All an insurance company will or can ask for in reality, is a completed bit of paper. It'll not improve anything as far as i can presently see!!!

 

[malcolmsanford]

Get brain surgery wrong its prolly 50/50 that the patient will come out alive without mental illness. Get electrics wrong: it wont work/the rcd will pop/the breaker will pop/it will be perfectly safe and work fine/absolutely minute chance that there will be a fire and somone will die.

I mean really....
If there are sooo many DIYers out there, what we talking? 1% of people are at it?
So thats about 600 000...
And how many are dying
Yeah thats right
Less than 30 (none of which are nessecarily caused by DIY work)
And my guess would be most fixed wiring electrical fires are caused by very very old wirng on very old fuseboards carried out by what are now very very old time served sparkies.

Or me .........................I did my best honest

 

[imago]

Lets be honest, it's not a new 'problem' is it? DIY repairs I mean. Remember (if you're old enough) back in the '60s and '70s and the majority of blokes would happily carry out basic wiring tasks, mostly to a reasonable standard. Likewise with plumbing, building, car repairs, motorbike repairs etc etc. It's dropped off quite a bit in the last 20 - 30 years as people don't have the time, inclination, or basic hand skills.

I maintain my motorbikes and always have done. In the beginning it was simply what you did, then it saved money, and now I do it because I trust my own abilities and judgement more than some random stranger who has a certificate. Most of the bikes I've owned are capable of travelling well in excess of double the national speed limit. Whilst I don't tend to do that these days the speeds that I do go at and the weight of the bikes would cause mayhem if something went west.

So thank heavens for the knowledgeable, skilled, and willing amateur. And thank heavens for the outlets that sell all manner of 'should only be for the trade' parts and equipment.

You will also notice if you read back through this thread that there are a number of 'professionals' who refer to Part P of the building regulations as a legal requirement. Oh the irony of the keen amateur who sees it simply as a regulation, and the professional who refers to it as a law.

The simple fact of the matter is that, as it has always been, if you are good at your job, keen to learn, and treat the customer properly you will do OK. If you run around wailing and gnashing your teeth about how hard it all is now, someone who's been around a bit longer will point out that it's a bloody site easier now than before.

 

[oldtimer]

Also it is easy far an individual to get a bit pompous not through malice but more like wanting to do the right thing as I have said before we cannot be the worlds electrical safety police because thats not our job. I would also point out that just like a religous convert someone who has converted into the trade ie not time served can tend to take it on with zeal and ok yes they want to do a good job but as we know the more you push the more you switch off the customer

 

[Dave 85]

Wow I just set a new personal record for most likes given in 2 mins.
Good to see the (previous) government campaign of suppressing common sense in the general public hasn't been entirly successful.

 

[prospark]

agree entirely, sparkies never be fully appreciated until the diy "sheds" stop doing how to guides!!!! and also stop these so called Part P courses as well. increasing number of young lads going to college to become a spark(nice to see),passing the course but with no real experience(sad really) as there has definately been a generation gap since i started.As we all know no substitute for experience,i'm still learning everyday after 26+ years at it.

 

[Golden_Boy]

agree entirely, sparkies never be fully appreciated until the diy "sheds" stop doing how to guides!!!! and also stop these so called Part P courses as well. increasing number of young lads going to college to become a spark(nice to see),passing the course but with no real experience(sad really) as there has definately been a generation gap since i started.As we all know no substitute for experience,i'm still learning everyday after 26+ years at it.

If that ever does happen whats to stop a DIYer from looking up the 17th or Part Pee or many of the other installation guides available on the net. Its not rocket science for goodness sake its bits of cable and a few accesories.

 

[Guest111]

correct me if I am wrong but I seem to recall that Wickes were stopped from producing" how to" leaflets on electrics a few years ago after concerns where raised by somebody, niceic or someone like that.at the end of the day if people are going to do sparking at home then they are going to do it,what worries me at times is the advice given by so called in store experts,in your favourite diy store I once heard an "expert" advise a customer who wished to extend his cable on his new water feature that a Duraplug 3 pin connector was the perfect thing for joining flexes outdoors!I also heard one plumbing expert advise on how to connect a gas cooker,and at no point did he mention doing a gas soundness test before and after carrying out the work.

 

[GLENNSPARK]

correct me if I am wrong but I seem to recall that Wickes were stopped from producing" how to" leaflets on electrics a few years ago after concerns where raised by somebody, niceic or someone like that.at the end of the day if people are going to do sparking at home then they are going to do it,what worries me at times is the advice given by so called in store experts,in your favourite diy store I once heard an "expert" advise a customer who wished to extend his cable on his new water feature that a Duraplug 3 pin connector was the perfect thing for joining flexes outdoors!I also heard one plumbing expert advise on how to connect a gas cooker,and at no point did he mention doing a gas soundness test before and after carrying out the work.

"somebody...NIC or someone like that".....so that would be the other scheme providers then.....

 

[Guest111]

"somebody...NIC or someone like that".....so that would be the other scheme providers then.....

sorry can,t remember who, it was a while ago and I have bigger things to worry about but I do remember reading it in an electrical mag somewhere.

 

[needasparks]

Thats a weekend sport, go out at the weekend to buy paint and while your there asking texas Tom a technical electrical question !
Just to give you a chuckle.

 

[GLENNSPARK]

look,....if folk want to play at electrics in/on their own homes/property......then let it be so.......as i have pointed out earlier in this thread....when it all goes arse up....then they can call in a proffesional......as far as the right for stores to trade freely without hinderence is concerned....well i think i have already made my thoughts clear on this as far as i am concerned........this does not extend to know nowts portraying themselves as competent or damn right dangerous cowboys passing off crap as compliency....

 

[Guest111]

look,....if folk want to play at electrics in/on their own homes/property......then let it be so.......as i have pointed out earlier in this thread....when it all goes arse up....then they can call in a proffesional......as far as the right for stores to trade freely without hinderence is concerned....well i think i have already made my thoughts clear on this as far as i am concerned........this does not extend to know nowts portraying themselves as competent or damn right dangerous cowboys passing off crap as compliency....

which is exactly the point I was trying to make,cocking vit up yourself is bad enough but when a so called expert tells you how to do it and its wrong well that no pun intended is shocking.

 

[vaughant]

Not even gonna read it all but yes home electrics have been subject to this for years so the answer to your question is it will never stop.
Sadly you can blame greed of previous generations on why people won't pay to have electrical work done that realistically is not difficult,wiring lights and sockets is simple let's be honest and like anything else in life there are plenty of so called "professionals" out there charging the earth (no pun intended) and doing poor work.
Too many horror stories of overcharging and scaremongering have left the domestic industry in the mess it is now,becoming a "spark" after 5 weeks doesn't help either,send one of those boys into my environment and they'll be gone the first time you mention "3 phase".
It needs sorting from the top down,legislation needs to be right and proper as in electrical goods can only be purchased upon reciept of a valid JIB card or such like.
A good point was made earlier though,fixing your own cars brakes,plumbing in a tap,knocking down a wall,chainsawing a tree,is wiring up a socket so different?
I wouldn't pay for any of the above jobs,I've repaired my own boiler a few times and guess what,no one died.
It's a tough game to prove the domestic industries shed it's conman image,I don't envy you boys at all.

 

[hercule]

If someone wants to do their own work in their own home they will. What i would like to see in the DIY shops is a notice telling people about part p and what they can and shouldn't do themselves. The usual leaflets they supply with light fittings etc always say if in doubt to get an electrician in - but what about a bit more detail and tell them about the schemes and competant persons website.

There are a lot of 'handymen' working around me who advertise electrical work, it just seems a bit pointless the punter calling them in when they can't figuire out whats wrong with their shiny new light when they've crowbarred 6 red wires into the 'live' terminal on the fitting.

We pay a fortune to the schemes to be able to work by the rules and do things by the book. In return the schemes need to start promoting us to the public.

Simple case - experienced diyer fitting outside pir light, allowed to do it, no problem. If he's taking the feed from kitchen light then notifyable so needs to get someone in. That's the rules and we pay money to be the 'legit' option for people. But how many people know this?

If we have to pay so much to be registered with the schemes, then they need to invest some of that money in educating the public and promoting us to them. The only advertising I see from them is in trying to recruit/poach new members (cash cows).

 

[Octopus]

One thing that is odd is the mandatory fitting of bonding to gas and water when doing any upgrades - we as diligent scheme members adhere to this but no paperwork in any DIY chain or new CU box mentions this in any way.

When it comes to extra sockets, the bonding question again, plus RCDs's

Sometimes the hurdles we are supposed to achieve seem pretty stupid.

 

[Engineer54]

It needs sorting from the top down,legislation needs to be right and proper as in electrical goods can only be purchased upon reciept of a valid JIB card or such like.

Still can't see the bigger picture then!!! Restrictive trading of electrical materials will only make material prices HIGHER!! and will reduce your work not increase it... And it will still not stop the home DIYer from working and doing jobs in his own home!!!

Your seeing a problem that just ISN'T there in the first place. It's the builders Plumber's, Kitchen Fitters and all the other tradesmen that are hiring there services to do electrical work that is your problem, and these so-called scheme providers (that your paying extortionate fee's too) that are officially allowing them to do it!! As i said before, You need to sort out your own back yard before you start worrying about the non existent problems with home owner DIYers...

 

[Geordie Spark]

If someone wants to do their own work in their own home they will. What i would like to see in the DIY shops is a notice telling people about part p and what they can and shouldn't do themselves. The usual leaflets they supply with light fittings etc always say if in doubt to get an electrician in - but what about a bit more detail and tell them about the schemes and competant persons website.

There are a lot of 'handymen' working around me who advertise electrical work, it just seems a bit pointless the punter calling them in when they can't figuire out whats wrong with their shiny new light when they've crowbarred 6 red wires into the 'live' terminal on the fitting.

We pay a fortune to the schemes to be able to work by the rules and do things by the book. In return the schemes need to start promoting us to the public.

Simple case - experienced diyer fitting outside pir light, allowed to do it, no problem. If he's taking the feed from kitchen light then notifyable so needs to get someone in. That's the rules and we pay money to be the 'legit' option for people. But how many people know this?

If we have to pay so much to be registered with the schemes, then they need to invest some of that money in educating the public and promoting us to them. The only advertising I see from them is in trying to recruit/poach new members (cash cows).

Have you thought about writing to the scheme provider about this?

 

[oldtimer]

Have you thought about writing to the scheme provider about this?

Lets face it the Schemies are not here to promote safety or the trade it is about bagging members getting a nice wage and pension and getting a bonus for courses sold becaus if the where interested in putting up standards they would join in with this forum instead of lurking. The only time these guys will move is if we have an event ie Government decides to do xx for the trade

 

[Geordie Spark]

Lets face it the Schemies are not here to promote safety or the trade it is about bagging members getting a nice wage and pension and getting a bonus for courses sold becaus if the where interested in putting up standards they would join in with this forum instead of lurking. The only time these guys will move is if we have an event ie Government decides to do xx for the trade

There IS another way & that is for all of you/us to refuse to have nowt to do with the schemes.

Sparks were quite capable of working without being members of these scams before so I see no reason why we can't now. If EVERYONE tuck two fingers up at the Government, what could they do about it??

It's a system that works very well in France & Italy !!!

These things become inflicted on us ONLY because we allow them to be !!

Yes, maybe I am an anarchist .... but I'm an anarchist who has never paid a single penny to a scam provider - and since I'm now happily retired I never will.

 

[drew35]

That is a very valid point, people always thing that other trades work is ok to do themselves. You are supposed to have an ATA qualification before working on a motor vehicle, especially brakes. Case in point another electrician locally serviced his van and also changed the front brakes, managed to twist the caliper around before bolting it back on. A few days later with the flexi twisted and blocked the van pulled hard over to the left and off the road, van no more. . .

 

[Geordie Spark]

That is a very valid point, people always thing that other trades work is ok to do themselves. You are supposed to have an ATA qualification before working on a motor vehicle, especially brakes. Case in point another electrician locally serviced his van and also changed the front brakes, managed to twist the caliper around before bolting it back on. A few days later with the flexi twisted and blocked the van pulled hard over to the left and off the road, van no more. . .

My ex-brother in law is a mechanic working for our local bus company & among other things, is responsible for fixing the brakes on buses.

However, when he wanted the brake pads changing on his car, he asked ME to do it for him !!

I'm NOT a mechanic, I'm a Time-Served Precision Engineer who retrained to become a Gas Fitter & Electrician ... and I have the paperwork to prove it. (thankfully now retired)

 

[oldtimer]

Yep my business cannot sustain a schemie membership as I do more repairs and mods ie no installs I just think this scheme thing has got out of hand it was meant to ensure standards but instead its about bagging members sales

 

[Geordie Spark]

The sad fact is that we British are nothing but a bunch of sheep & the sooner we wake up to that fact and DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT the better !!!

(maybe I should have said flock??)

 

[GLENNSPARK]

Still can't see the bigger picture then!!! Restrictive trading of electrical materials will only make material prices HIGHER!! and will reduce your work not increase it... And it will still not stop the home DIYer from working and doing jobs in his own home!!!

Your seeing a problem that just ISN'T there in the first place. It's the builders Plumber's, Kitchen Fitters and all the other tradesmen that are hiring there services to do electrical work that is your problem, and these so-called scheme providers (that your paying extortionate fee's too) that are officially allowing them to do it!! As i said before, You need to sort out your own back yard before you start worrying about the non existent problems with home owner DIYers...

exactly my point earlier eng about divvys comeing along and hireing themselves out to do electrical work in other peoples homes/property without the slightest incling of either:

1)what they are doing

2)what needs doing

3) how to do the job compliantly

 

[Dave 85]

This is gonna make me popular....
I've said it before and Im gonna say it again....
I have no problem with Part P registration.
Ok I'm young and I've never known anything else but Im glad its there.
£350 a year is chump change as far as I'm concerned, gas fitters have to pay an arm and a leg to stay registered.
I use Elecsa, they're always on hand for advice if I need it and my annual inspection keeps my standards from slipping.
Now I know some of ypu are gonna come out and say the introduction of Part P has NEVER deterred a SINGLE kitchen fitter/builder from doing his own wiring. This is a load of crap. Ok so I realise lots of you see evidence of other trades doing electrical work but I hardly see any (not in brown and blue, plenty of DIY bodging in white T&E though). When I chat to other trades about it they say things to the effect of "I used to do all my own wiring but I'm not allowed any more cos of part P"
I'm certain that I would have significantly less work on without it.

IMO its better to have a kitchen fitter whos had five weeks intensive electrical training and had to pass both practical and theory exams, aswell as being assesed on his competence once a year (ok its hard to fail, but they're gonna point out what you're doing wrong) doing wiring than a kitchen fitter whos just seen a sparky do it a few times.
I know at least 3 tradesmen who have done the part P course then realised afterwards that they still cant legally work without being registered and given up, who don't do their own wiring (they all use me).

 

[Dave 85]

Ok so its a bit silly that a fully trained experience sparky who works for a company isn't allowed to so his own notifiable private work but if it were me I'd just do it anyway instead os sitting on the net moaning about it day in day out.

 

[Geordie Spark]

Ok so its a bit silly that a fully trained experience sparky who works for a company isn't allowed to so his own notifiable private work but if it were me I'd just do it anyway instead os sitting on the net moaning about it day in day out.

Thank flock for that !!!!

I was sitting here thinking I was all alone !!!

 

[alarm man]

Ok so its a bit silly that a fully trained experience sparky who works for a company isn't allowed to so his own notifiable private work but if it were me I'd just do it anyway instead os sitting on the net moaning about it day in day out.

ive done a bit,and im not part p as its known,i do have a guide to part p regs book tho.it doesnt stop any spark doing what they have done for years anyway imo

 

[trev]

To a point, we should be thankful for the existence of the DIYer and for the sheds that supply him/her. For example, today I have had two calls from people who have decided to put their own light fittings in. Red to red black to black turn on and bang Er I'd best phone a sparky.
Easy money for an easy job

 

[Geordie Spark]

ive done a bit,and im not part p as its known,i do have a guide to part p regs book tho.it doesnt stop any spark doing what they have done for years anyway imo

As long as you have a guide to Part P you'll always be able to wipe yer arse & light yer fire.

 

[trev]

ive done a bit,and im not part p as its known,i do have a guide to part p regs book tho.it doesnt stop any spark doing what they have done for years anyway imo

It also never stops a cowboy

 

[Dave 85]

ive done a bit,and im not part p as its known,i do have a guide to part p regs book tho.it doesnt stop any spark doing what they have done for years anyway imo

Exactly. It was never intended to stop qualified employed electicians doing their own work, that was just a side effect. I can't see how you'd ever get in trouble for it. For a sparky who spends most of their time doing private domestic jobs its in their own interest to be registered to avoid the odd problem with building inspectors and because it looks more pro if you can put on yr letter head 'registered competent person'

If you're a qual'd spark whos not registered doing private domestic jobs the only thing you are doing is a minor breach of building regs, which any decent builder does on a regular basis.

 

[alarm man]

As long as you have a guide to Part P you'll always be able to wipe yer arse & light yer fire.

it s not a bad read really when your sitiing there when it wont come out,prefer the ronny gill most times..
:wink_smile: