Dual board with no earth on final circuits

[Sparksaflyin]

Hi guys. Need to change the fuseboard at my parents house but none of their final circuits have a cpc run to them. Obviously have an earth on the main incoming so I can get a 16mm earthing conductor up to my new 18th edition metallic consumer unit but they don’t want a rewire so none of the final circuits will be protected with an earth.

My question is will this be an issue in the functionality of the rcds? Obviously the rcd functions on an imbalance between live and neutral so as far as I’m concerned it shouldn’t be too much of an issue hopefully, just wanted to get some of your opinions on the matter.

Another issue I can see is how I’m supposed to test for disconnection times without an
earth?

Opinions would be greatly appreciated

Thanks

 

[telectrix]

are you sure of the no cpc? maybe on lighting, but all other circuits should have. what's the approx. age of the installation? are the circuits in metal conduit providing the cpc's? need more info. inc. pics.

and you can't possibly go ahead with a CU install without confirming presence of CPC's

 

[westward10]

None of the circuits incorporate a cpc?

 

[mattg4321]

I've never come across a property with no CPC on any circuit!

 

[Resu]

My guess would be conduit

 

[Sparksaflyin]

Appreciate the speedy replies. I’ve not done any in depth research as yet, I just had a quick check of a 2 light switches while I was round there this evening having dinner. I will have to have a more in depth look now. Just thought I’d get some opinions on it before I did. I didn’t look for metal conduit in the back box but that makes perfect sense actually.

 

[Dustydazzler]

Micc ?

 

[mattg4321]

Appreciate the speedy replies. I’ve not done any in depth research as yet, I just had a quick check of a 2 light switches while I was round there this evening having dinner. I will have to have a more in depth look now. Just thought I’d get some opinions on it before I did. I didn’t look for metal conduit in the back box but that makes perfect sense actually.

Just because the lighting circuits (or maybe just the switch drops) don't incorporate a cpc you would assume all circuits don't have one??

 

[Sparksaflyin]

One thing I did notice is there were 3 supply cables coming in but why would this be in a 3 bedroom house? A little over the top don’t you think?

 

[telectrix]

One thing I did notice is there were 3 supply cables coming in but why would this be in a 3 bedroom house? A little over the top don’t you think?

get us some pictures. we love pictures. helps those of us that can't read grown-up writing. .

 

[Sparksaflyin]

Just because the lighting circuits (or maybe just the switch drops) don't incorporate a cpc you would assume all circuits don't have one??

Thanks Matt. Maybe I should have done a bit more digging before posting. I was clearly feeling lazy

 

[telectrix]

Thanks Matt. Maybe I should have done a bit more digging before posting. I was clearly feeling lazy

ytou should be able to get a government job then

 

[Sparksaflyin]

Just because the lighting circuits (or maybe just the switch drops) don't incorporate a cpc you would assume all circuits don't have one??

And if I remember correctly I changed a couple of lights over for them years ago and there was no earth at the ceiling rose either

 

[telectrix]

when was the house built ( approx. ).i'll guess 60's

 

[bigspark17]

Appreciate the speedy replies. I’ve not done any in depth research as yet, I just had a quick check of a 2 light switches while I was round there this evening having dinner. I will have to have a more in depth look now. Just thought I’d get some opinions on it before I did. I didn’t look for metal conduit in the back box but that makes perfect sense actually.

If this is hoe you look into changing a cu, then my advice would be dont!!

 

[Sparksaflyin]

get us some pictures. we love pictures. helps those of us that can't read grown-up writing. .

I’ll take some when I’m next there and get them over to you and yes maybe I should go for a job in boris cabinet ( not literally )

 

[Andy78]

It could be that the lighting circuits certainly don't have a cpc. It was not a requirement before 1966. This leaves you with the wiring being 53 years young and the problem of no cpcs in the lighting circuit. A rewire would/could be advisable.

 

[Sparksaflyin]

If this is hoe you look into changing a cu, then my advice would be dont!!

Thanks for the advice big spark but I wasn’t looking into changing a fuseboard I was round my parents house for dinner and my dad threw it on me while I was there. I decided I’d have a VERY QUICK look while I was there and do some more digging when I have the time.

 

[Sparksaflyin]

when was the house built ( approx. ).i'll guess 60's

My parents have lived there for nearly 40 years so I’d say your guess could be pretty spot on

 

[Sparksaflyin]

It could be that the lighting circuits certainly don't have a cpc. It was not a requirement before 1966. This leaves you with the wiring being 53 years young and the problem of no cpcs in the lighting circuit. A rewire would/could be advisable.

I’ve been telling them this for over 10 years to no avail. They don’t want the mess which is understandable. They are both in their 60s so I can’t see them ever having it done.

 

[Sparksaflyin]

Anyone got any ideas on why there would be 3 phase going into a 3 bed house?

 

[telectrix]

was normal for lighting circuits to not have cpc in 60's builds. if that's the case, it's OK to leave as is, but advise that only plastic fittings and switches should be used. if you take a light switch off, you'll probably see that the lugs for the faceplate screws are nylon, thus insulating the 3.5mm screws from the backbox.

 

[telectrix]

I’ve been telling them this for over 10 years to no avail. They don’t want the mess which is understandable. They are both in their 60s so I can’t see them ever having it done.

if the wiring is in good condition, then there's no need for a rewire. maybe advise them to rewire the lightsalone, but as long as youensure insulated switches andlignts, no problem.

and the breers are taking toll.oopss maent beers.ach, gotit rigtht

 

[Sparksaflyin]

was normal for lighting circuits to not have cpc in 60's builds. if that's the case, it's OK to leave as is, but advise that only plastic fittings and switches should be used. if you take a light switch off, you'll probably see that the lugs for the faceplate screws are nylon, thus insulating the 3.5mm screws from the backbox.

I told my father this before he went ahead and put all new metal switches on the whole of downstairs because they “look nicer”. Head + brick wall!

 

[Sparksaflyin]

if the wiring is in good condition, then there's no need for a rewire. maybe advise them to rewire the lightsalone, but as long as youensure insulated switches andlignts, no problem.

and the breers are taking toll.oopss maent beers.ach, gotit rigtht

So In terms of the functionality of the rcds, you can’t see this being an issue? I would assume that if any exposed/extraneous conductive parts do become live and someone touches them and creates a fault path, that the rcd will pick up on this imbalance regardless?

 

[telectrix]

I told my father this before he went ahead and put all new metal switches on the whole of downstairs because they “look nicer”. Head + brick wall!

as they say. you can't educate pork.

 

[Sparksaflyin]

if the wiring is in good condition, then there's no need for a rewire. maybe advise them to rewire the lightsalone, but as long as youensure insulated switches andlignts, no problem.

and the breers are taking toll.oopss maent beers.ach, gotit rigtht

Up stairs lighting maybe wouldn’t be too much of an issue but downstairs means floorboards up and they won’t have it

 

[Andy78]

I told my father this before he went ahead and put all new metal switches on the whole of downstairs because they “look nicer”. Head + brick wall!

And they're still like this, and you being a sparky ? Have you been peeking at the will or something ?

 

[telectrix]

So In terms of the functionality of the rcds, you can’t see this being an issue? I would assume that if any exposed/extraneous conductive parts do become live and someone touches them and creates a fault path, that the rcd will pick up on this imbalance regardless?

yep. RCDs don't need earths/cpc's . the human body provides the earth path to provide the imbalance.

 

[Sparksaflyin]

as they say. you can't educate pork.

Not entirely sure how to take that

 

[Sparksaflyin]

And they're still like this, and you being a sparky ? Have you been peeking at the will or something ?

Yes they are still like it stubborn as an old goat is my dad. What can I say

 

[telectrix]

just check the other circuits. bet you they all have cpc's. then if they insist on metal switches, check that their wills are in order.

 

[Sparksaflyin]

yep. RCDs don't need earths/cpc's . the human body provides the earth path to provide the imbalance.

Lovely stuff! So as long as I make a note of it on the doc and the ---- pile of other stuff I’m sure to find, my --- is covered?

 

[telectrix]

Not entirely sure how to take that

having just read post#31, maybe i should have said goat instead of pork.

 

[davesparks]

So In terms of the functionality of the rcds, you can’t see this being an issue? I would assume that if any exposed/extraneous conductive parts do become live and someone touches them and creates a fault path, that the rcd will pick up on this imbalance regardless?

Yes if someone touches the parts and receives an electric shock the RCD will operate once the shock has become severe enough. And if that person is in good health they will find the experience painful but likely survive, if they are not in good health or they have a weak heart they may well not survive the experience.

 

[Andy78]

Yes they are still like it stubborn as an old goat is my dad. What can I say

Be stubborn back then. Tell him no board swap unless cpc added or at the very least all metal accessories changed to plastic.
Show him the electrical safety first guide to help persuade that a real danger presently exists and that the correct course of action should be followed.

 

[telectrix]

Lovely stuff! So as long as I make a note of it on the doc and the **** pile of other stuff I’m sure to find, my --- is covered?

you go to work on an ---? i thought even essex had horses these days.

 

[Sparksaflyin]

just check the other circuits. bet you they all have cpc's. then if they insist on metal switches, check that their wills are in order.

If I end up changing the board I will remove all the metal switches and replace with Plastic while he’s not looking. Like I say though, for arguments sake, the rcd will still protect against this? Only problem being I can’t really test the theory out without an earth?

 

[Markyd]

No wonder you call yourself sparksaflyin.........change the metal lighting fittings back to plastic until you replace the CU....Then leave them on

 

[Andy78]

Lovely stuff! So as long as I make a note of it on the doc and the **** pile of other stuff I’m sure to find, my --- is covered?

A note on a cert cannot excuse you from the responsibility of not doing your job properly or leaving an unsafe condition.

 

[Sparksaflyin]

you go to work on an ---? i thought even essex had horses these days.

We do mate. Ship them all from up north.

 

[telectrix]

We do mate. Ship them all from up north.

silly arse. them's not horses, they's northern women

 

[Markyd]

Lovely stuff! So as long as I make a note of it on the doc and the **** pile of other stuff I’m sure to find, my --- is covered?

What a great attitude to have.......im done ..im out

 

[Sparksaflyin]

No wonder you call yourself sparksaflyin.........change the metal lighting fittings back to plastic until you replace the CU....Then leave them on

They’ll all be plastic by the time I’m done. He won’t be so stubborn once he knows my names tied to it. ( hopefully )

 

[davesparks]

, the rcd will still protect against this? Only problem being I can’t really test the theory out without an earth?

No, in this situation an RCD disconnects the circuit once a person is already receiving an electric shock. A 30mA RCD disconnects the supply before the shock reaches a level that is not normally fatal for a healthy adult.

 

[Sparksaflyin]

What a great attitude to have.......im done ..im out

I was referring to the lack of an earth on the lighting. If it’s not there and they won’t let me change it, what exactly can I do? Thanks for the input though

 

[Sparksaflyin]

silly arse. them's not horses, they's northern women

Haha they do like to ride mate! Not usually involving a saddle though

 

[westward10]

Without a cpc ADS cannot be complied with and the provision of an rcd cannot be relied upon in the absence of a cpc.

 

[Sparksaflyin]

No, in this situation an RCD disconnects the circuit once a person is already receiving an electric shock. A 30mA RCD disconnects the supply before the shock reaches a level that is not normally fatal for a healthy adult.

Maybe the 30ma will knock some sense into him. All jokes aside the metal faceplates definitely need to go

 

[davesparks]

I was referring to the lack of an earth on the lighting. If it’s not there and they won’t let me change it, what exactly can I do? Thanks for the input though

What you can do is walk away from the job and have nothing to do with it.