EIC as EICR

[Oli]

Hi all,
My friend has rented a property and I assume a spark has been called by the estate agents to do an EICR, my mate noticed that none of the sockets have come off the wall as they have been painted over.
He just sent me the paperwork he got when he rented the property and he has issued an EIC for a board change, probably one of the guys swapping plastic boards out for no good reason, but ignoring that fact for a minute, the EIC lists the board change in the scope of works, is this cert actually valid in regard to renting out a property or do you specifically need an EICR, I would have thought you do, as many sparks may be qualified for board changes but not EICR's not to mention insurance, and clearly in this case he has not done a proper EICR as he hasn't had any sockets off the wall, although there are of course plenty of sparks issuing EICR's without really doing anything. Not sure what to make of it.
The cert also looks a bit badly filled in, no max demand, and a bit ticking happy in the SOI, but there are some continuity tests, although I'm willing to bet he faked the IR test as they all came out perfect, if it was old enough to need a new CU then some of the wires would be showing a bit of deg surely.
Cheers
Oli

 

[Dartlec]

It's an interesting question - and I'm not sure if there is official guidance, but I've seen it stated that an EIC is suitable - though that would depend on it including the entire installation. If the

The relevant part of the regulations merely state that a private landlord must :

ensure every electrical installation in the residential premises is inspected and tested at regular intervals by a qualified person; ...

then

obtain a report from the person conducting that inspection and test, which gives the results of the inspection and test and the date of the next inspection and test

And an EICR is the only widely recognised method for doing that.

Of course in a new build, the EIC would cover the full installation, so that would clearly also be an appropriate report.

Arguably, the EIC for a CU change (where there is only one) should be covering the entire installation as installing a board to current regulations requires testing and the testing is similar (I effectively do an EICR before a board change, and I believe that is quite common).

It may well be the case that someone changing a board may take less care with checking things like wiring at downlights, etc,. which would be covered by a good EICR, but then it is entirely possible to complete an EICR with lots of limitations, and I suspect many of the "3 ECIRs a day" type reports will be noticeably less useful than a properly completed EIC for a board change.

If an EICR fails on RCD protection, and the board is changed as a result, having both certificates might give a clearer insight into the history of the property - but giving both to a landlord or tenant is likely to confuse the issue, as there is a certificate with a big 'unsatisfatory' on the front page, which as we know is all most people look at....

I suspect this is one of the situations where only time will decide what is acceptable and what isn't.

Maybe they are planning a "Part T" system for testers....I know that would go down well on here

 

[loz2754]

According to gov.uk guidance on the 2020 private rented sector regulations, an EIC could take the place of an EICR for either a new installation or a complete rewire. So in this case, if the tenancy is being renewed, there will need to be an EICR covering the whole of the installation, not just the consumer unit change. And of course the EIC as well. An EIC does not necessarily involve a complete and thorough inspection and test of the whole of the installation.

 

[Dartlec]

According to gov.uk guidance on the 2020 private rented sector regulations, an EIC could take the place of an EICR for either a new installation or a complete rewire. So in this case, if the tenancy is being renewed, there will need to be an EICR covering the whole of the installation, not just the consumer unit change. And of course the EIC as well.

Yes, looking at the guidance page here - It does appear to suggest that an EIC is only appropriate for a new build or rewire.

Are there check boxes on the EICR that are not on an EIC, I haven't spent much time comparing them...

As I read the regulations, giving an EICR with 'unsatifactory' and a written note that says 'we've fixed all the issues k thx bye', would comply with the regulations - it doesn't mention providing an EIC or a MWC for the corrective work (though this would be common sense of course)

The guidance also seems to be written badly (shocker), to say:

If the report requires remedial work or further investigation, landlords must provide written confirmation that the work has been carried out to their tenant and to the local authority within 28 days of completing the work

Which suggests you have to tell the local authority if you've done any remedial work, even if they didn't request the EICR or have any involvement to that point?
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The cert also looks a bit badly filled in, no max demand, and a bit ticking happy in the SOI, but there are some continuity tests, although I'm willing to bet he faked the IR test as they all came out perfect, if it was old enough to need a new CU then some of the wires would be showing a bit of deg surely.
Cheers
Oli

The give away on certificates is when they tick the 'alternative sources of supply' boxes as a PASS

Depending on how old the house is, it's possible for the wiring to get 'perfect' IR readings, especially on my Megger 1552 that only goes up to >299, especially if all loads were disconnected and there are no LEDs in switches, etc, or fancy lights.

It's probably more likely that they were just parrot filled in of course...

 

[loz2754]

Yes, looking at the guidance page here - It does appear to suggest that an EIC is only appropriate for a new build or rewire.

Are there check boxes on the EICR that are not on an EIC, I haven't spent much time comparing them...

As I read the regulations, giving an EICR with 'unsatifactory' and a written note that says 'we've fixed all the issues k thx bye', would comply with the regulations - it doesn't mention providing an EIC or a MWC for the corrective work (though this would be common sense of course)

The guidance also seems to be written badly (shocker), to say:

If the report requires remedial work or further investigation, landlords must provide written confirmation that the work has been carried out to their tenant and to the local authority within 28 days of completing the work

Which suggests you have to tell the local authority if you've done any remedial work, even if they didn't request the EICR or have any involvement to that point?
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The give away on certificates is when they tick the 'alternative sources of supply' boxes as a PASS

Depending on how old the house is, it's possible for the wiring to get 'perfect' IR readings, especially on my Megger 1552 that only goes up to >299, especially if all loads were disconnected and there are no LEDs in switches, etc, or fancy lights.

It's probably more likely that they were just parrot filled in of course...

This is how I understand things:

There are a few differences on the EICR checklists, however, for an EIC I would be entering N/A on many of the check boxes, as I have not directly checked many of the items referred to as I have not worked directly on them (if that makes sense!). Whereas the EICR check boxes will need a lot more consideration, as that is the purpose of the EICR, to check all aspects of the installation for safe continued use.

I agree that the official guidance is somewhat limited and hopefully more useful guidance will emerge over time.

We do not have to tell the local authority about remedial work. The landlord does.

 

[Lister1987]

An EIC should not be used in place of an EICR unless it is a new build. What you have is 2 very different sets of perimeters to be done. The only way EICs should be seen as interchangable with an EICR is if the EICR is full of LIMs.

An EIC effectively has the effect of 'I certify the work I have done is entirely compliant', a EICR certifies the entirety of the installation (excluding agreed LIMs). By using the former to the extent of the latter (even though you may have only changed a fitting), leaves you open to a world of trouble and is the mark of a person not knowing what thry do or why things are the way they are - We have 2 forms for a reason.

 

[westward10]

He has issued the correct Certificate for a consumer unit change however it is only applicable to the works carried out and cannot take the place of an EICR.

 

[Oli]

Hi Guys,
Thanks for all the considered replies, I think we are pretty much all in agreement that it's a no go, if your installing a new CU you don't take all the sockets off etc (although I like many others would have already done this as I do an EICR first) so you have not done an EICR so it's not a valid report on the current state of the install.

And your spot on, he ticked the alternative sources of supply, the other one that I see often is RCD for fault protection, that catches people out I think.

Cheers all

 

[Dartlec]

We do not have to tell the local authority about remedial work. The landlord does.

So in cases where the local authority has never been involved, if an EICR is issued with a C2, but that is then corrected, the landlord always has to send that to the "Local Housing Authority"? Are they actually set up to receive such things and know what to do with them? In most private rental cases they will have had no current input as I understand it?

Or is it meant to say that where a LA has asked for a certificate, then proof the remedial work has been done has to be forwarded, which would make more sense.

The EICRs I've done so far have been ones where I've corrected things before issuing it, so it's not come up - but it's clear that most landlords are still pretty vague on the regulations other than a report is required...

 

[loz2754]

So in cases where the local authority has never been involved, if an EICR is issued with a C2, but that is then corrected, the landlord always has to send that to the "Local Housing Authority"? Are they actually set up to receive such things and know what to do with them? In most private rental cases they will have had no current input as I understand it?

Or is it meant to say that where a LA has asked for a certificate, then proof the remedial work has been done has to be forwarded, which would make more sense.

The EICRs I've done so far have been ones where I've corrected things before issuing it, so it's not come up - but it's clear that most landlords are still pretty vague on the regulations other than a report is required...

Very good questions. I doubt the local authorities would have a clue. My point is simply that, as electricians conducting EICRs and possibly related remedial works, we issue the relevant certificates/reports to the person ordering the work, and our responsibility ends there.

 

[jon evans]

So, due to an old plastic CU, I got an "unsatisfactory" on my first EICR , foolishly or otherwise done by a local electrical firm, why did my own electrician give me an EIC {and not a new "Satisfactory" EICR } after fitting for me a new metal CU and testing all circuits with all the new meters he has ? I hadn't noticed the subtle differences on the two forms till after I'd paid the bill !

 

[telectrix]

if he has done a EICR first, with defects, a EIC showing that those defects have been rectified, together with the original EICR, constitute all you need. no need for another EICR.

 

[i=p/u]

A board change requires full testt of circuits, and as good as a eicr with no codes

 

[James]

changing a single board in a property is not the same as a detailed eicr.

I admit they may be similar in a property with only one db but they are NOT the same.

 

[loz2754]

A board change requires full testt of circuits, and as good as a eicr with no codes

Sorry I agree with James on this one.
Not the same at all.
Yes you have to test all circuits after a board change. But many properties have more than one board. And an EICR involves more detailed inspections throughout the whole installation.

 

[Risteard]

Sorry I agree with James on this one.
Not the same at all.
Yes you have to test all circuits after a board change. But many properties have more than one board. And an EICR involves more detailed inspections throughout the whole installation.

The inspection and testing following the replacement of a DB is to ensure that the replacement of the DB does not impair the safety of the existing installation, and that the existing installation does not impair the safety of the DB replacement. In essence you are verifying that ADS will be satisfied for the altered circumstances of the installation.

Whilst you certainly might make comments about the existing installation, you are not reporting on the condition of an existing electrical installation. You are merely certifying the works which you have carried out.

If I replace a DB and certify that work I am not making a statement that the installation as a whole is compliant with BS 7671 - only the aspects which I worked on.

 

[i=p/u]

Your doing all tests, your proving they are good for continued service.

As said above, you are not going to pay for eic and eicr

 

[loz2754]

Your doing all tests, your proving they are good for continued service.

As said above, you are not going to pay for eic and eicr

Then you are not going to get one...